Defense

e-bone ver2.awesome · October 20, 2009

Is the defense giving up 30 points in a quarter or being able to make a stop at the end of a game to seal a win really Dodge's fault? Everyone here blasted Mendoza 2 years ago for having a horrendous defense and he was let go. They brought in Deloach last season and the defense was just as bad if not worse but there was no criticism of Deloach. The defense is slightly improved this season but still can't do what it has to do when it counts and there is still no criticism of Deloach and everything being blamed on Dodge. Someone in the know please tell me exactly how much input Dodge has on the defense? I'm assuming that Deloach is pretty much left to handle the defense and Dodge handles the offense, in a reverse Wade Phillips/Jason Garret kind of scenario. If that is the case then why does Deloach seem to be able to do no wrong even when his defense stinks? I know he had some great defenses here in the early 00s, but what about NOW?

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 20, 2009

No one is giving Deloach a pass. But let's look at just how bad this defense is doing this year in points per game...I believe last year they gave up an avg of 45 point per game and this year through six games they are giving up 35.5 points per game. The offense last year I believe scored 19.6 points per game and this year are at 25.3 points per game. So just looking at those numbers alone, Deloach in just his second year coaching the defense they are 10 points better and Dodge with the offense is in year three and just now starting to get the offense increasing as there was little increase between years one and two. Throw in the fact that Deloach has already proven he can coach on this level and the jury is still out on Dodge.

TheTastyGreek · October 20, 2009

Is the defense giving up 30 points in a quarter or being able to make a stop at the end of a game to seal a win really Dodge's fault? Everyone here blasted Mendoza 2 years ago for having a horrendous defense and he was let go. They brought in Deloach last season and the defense was just as bad if not worse but there was no criticism of Deloach. The defense is slightly improved this season but still can't do what it has to do when it counts and there is still no criticism of Deloach and everything being blamed on Dodge. Someone in the know please tell me exactly how much input Dodge has on the defense? I'm assuming that Deloach is pretty much left to handle the defense and Dodge handles the offense, in a reverse Wade Phillips/Jason Garret kind of scenario. If that is the case then why does Deloach seem to be able to do no wrong even when his defense stinks? I know he had some great defenses here in the early 00s, but what about NOW?

As was said last year, when you asked this same question about half a dozen times, there are some pretty good reasons Mendoza deserved to be fired while DeLoach didn't, and there are a lot of pretty good reasons to have faith in DeLoach despite not seeing an immediate, overnight renaissance.

But that was last year, and this is now. So... Going into this game, we had the top defense in the conference (per comments by MeanGreen61, who's been tracking overall rankings all season here and on the SBC board).

We had a bad game. Half of the scores came on drives that started either on our side of the field or within 10 yards of midfield.

The defense doesn't "stink". The defense had a bad game that was made worse by miscues on offense and special teams.

But welcome back. It's been 7 months between posts... Maybe if we lose a game or two, you can start the "Fire Johnny Jones!" campaign you were running in the year we wound up going to the NCAA Tournament.

Green P1 · October 20, 2009

My critisim in the thread below is pointed squarely at Deloach. I doubt that Dodge calls many if any of the shots on the other side of the ball.

http://www.gomeangreen.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=49222

UNT90 · October 20, 2009

No one is giving Deloach a pass. But let's look at just how bad this defense is doing this year in points per game...I believe last year they gave up an avg of 45 point per game and this year through six games they are giving up 35.5 points per game. The offense last year I believe scored 19.6 points per game and this year are at 25.3 points per game. So just looking at those numbers alone, Deloach in just his second year coaching the defense they are 10 points better and Dodge with the offense is in year three and just now starting to get the offense increasing as there was little increase between years one and two. Throw in the fact that Deloach has already proven he can coach on this level and the jury is still out on Dodge.

True, but we still have Troy, Ark St., and Army left to play. Lets wait and see the final numbers. These games could be very ugly for the defense. I think Troy and ULM could be very ugly for the offense as well. Last year, we also had a tougher non-conference schedule, playing LSU and 10-2 Rice, Bowl team Tulsa and K-State. Thats 3 bowl teams and one Big 12 team. I would bet 3 of these finished ranked in the top 50 of D1A.

This year we played (play) 2 poor MAC schools and a poor Army team (as compared to all of D1A), with Bama as the only top 50 team. So the argumet could be made that we are the same defensive team, but just have played poorer competition.

I do think we are marginally better on defense, but far from where we need to be in order to win 5 or 6 games. It will be interesting to revisit this at the end of the year.

e-bone ver2.awesome · October 20, 2009

As was said last year, when you asked this same question about half a dozen times, there are some pretty good reasons Mendoza deserved to be fired while DeLoach didn't, and there are a lot of pretty good reasons to have faith in DeLoach despite not seeing an immediate, overnight renaissance.
But that was last year, and this is now. So... Going into this game, we had the top defense in the conference (per comments by MeanGreen61, who's been tracking overall rankings all season here and on the SBC board).
We had a bad game. Half of the scores came on drives that started either on our side of the field or within 10 yards of midfield.
The defense doesn't "stink". The defense had a bad game that was made worse by miscues on offense and special teams.
But welcome back. It's been 7 months between posts... Maybe if we lose a game or two, you can start the "Fire Johnny Jones!" campaign you were running in the year we wound up going to the NCAA Tournament.

You're right, instead of having the worst defense in the nation like last year, Deloach has this group up to 114 out of 120. Amazing turn around. No wonder he receives a minuscule fraction of the criticism Dodge does, that is a 6 spot improvement!

Look, I'm not defending Mendoza or calling for Deloach to be fired. I just want people to give credit where credit is due and to give criticism where criticism is due. The double standards of this board are pathetic and one of the big reasons I can't come around here very often.

LongJim · October 20, 2009

This is a team that is rebuilding itself, and has come a long way already. They are back to being neck and neck with the majority of teams in the belt. If you believe that UNT's woes this year are completely due to coaching (which many on the board do) then DeLoach deserves as much criticism as TD/Ford. I believe that both sides of the football are doing the best they can with the depth and talent they have. It's no secret that DL was a major issue when TD took over this program, and he neglected/failed to address the situation when he got here. The coaching staff has since concentrated very hard on improving this area, (as Harry and others have pointed out during the off-season) and the defensive improvement is noticeable--as is the offensive improvement. If you don't think the OL is leaps and bounds better than last year...well then I don't know what to say to you.

Similar to Green P1, I had comments in the thread he referenced. It's about getting depth in the system, and coaching and bulking them up to play at this level. This is NOT the SBC of 2001-2004. It is totally changed and now competes with the MAC and CUSA/WAC teams of the world, instead of glorified DII levels.

The coaching staff needs the terms and lengths of their contract to get this thing turned around. It is turning around. Attendance is improving. Donations are increasing. You are witnessing a rebirth of this program in many ways. It's not an overnight process, and can take several years. Not 2 years, not 3 years. Rice is back to where they were 5 years ago. Baylor lost their QB, and their promising year is over. It's about PLAYERS at this level of football. It's about recruiting and building the program gradually. It is maddening to wait for the improvements, but they come in increments. We have people here who blather on about this coach or that coach turning it around because of their magical powers. Right.

Sure, DeLoach has made some innovative moves to get his best playmakers in position to make plays, and he's the right guy for the job, but that will only take you so far. Charlie Willingham at ND went to 2 BCS bowls because of the team he inherited, and Charlie Weis went 3-9 and 7-6 the next two years, because he had to rebuild the team after the coaching change. He's in his 5th year now and 4-2 because his OL recruiting was terrible, and his run game nonexistent the last 2 years. He's an NFL coach, though. Kragthorpe is failing because he can't get the players into his system to run his wing a ding, and he's in year 3. NFL coach, though.

How does Big East ass taste, Steve?

My original post.

Censored by Laurie · October 20, 2009

Maybe Rusty Smith and Alfred Morris are actually pretty good.

Just sayin.

LongJim · October 20, 2009

We had a bad game. Half of the scores came on drives that started either on our side of the field or within 10 yards of midfield.
The defense doesn't "stink". The defense had a bad game that was made worse by miscues on offense and special teams.

Tasty, I love you, but 5.5 ypc is not having a bad game due to miscues by other teams. That's called getting your ass kicked on the DL. Look at the stats for tackles in the game by the DL. I believe there were 4. No sacks, no TFL's. Ass kicked.

BTW, UNT's OL kicked FAU's ass even worse.

ASS.

LongJim · October 20, 2009

Maybe Rusty Smith and Alfred Morris are actually pretty good.
Just sayin.

Right there with you on Rusty Smith. Great QB.

Censored by Laurie · October 20, 2009

Morris ran for just shy of 100 and Smith wasn't sacked against Nebraska.

I think its a combination of Green P1's major complaint (right there with you) and FAU's offense being a whole lot better than 0-4

jdennis82 · October 20, 2009

to say this defense is "slightly improved" seems to be a great understatement. the last two years involved players running wide open all game long. this season, i see players who are step for step with the receivers throughout the game. now, it seemed that the scheme saturday was incredibly bland and safe because i don't remember a single blitz, but i'm sure that was a challenge to make FAU drive the entire field rather than risk the big play. of course, "the entire field" was incredibly short most of the night.

KRAM1 · October 20, 2009

The defense is vastly improved, but the effort against FAU made me think Mendoza was back...looked like his defenses...couldn't cover a pass...hard to do so when you play so far off the line...and couldn't stop a fullback...a fullback no less...from running wild right up the gut! OUCH! This FAU game effort is one to forget. I think DeLoach should get out of the press box and back on the sidelines where he belongs.

I see this last game as a "one game" set-back and blip on an otherwise vastly improved defense. If it continues, well, that would be another matter altogether. I am confident it will not.

GO MEAN GREEN!

FirefightnRick · October 20, 2009

You're right, instead of having the worst defense in the nation like last year, Deloach has this group up to 114 out of 120. Amazing turn around. No wonder he receives a minuscule fraction of the criticism Dodge does, that is a 6 spot improvement!
Look, I'm not defending Mendoza or calling for Deloach to be fired. I just want people to give credit where credit is due and to give criticism where criticism is due. The double standards of this board are pathetic and one of the big reasons I can't come around here very often.

Admit it, your simply upset because everyone is over here talking about a 1-5 football team instead of talking up our basketball team's thrill-a-second home opening schedule against Cameron, Jackson State and University of the Southwest(originally known as ImmaTellin U in Chico Texas, home of the Battlin' Worms).

Rick

Harry · October 20, 2009

I think the FAU game reminds us that our defensive line and the entire front seven is still a work in progress. There has been major improvement but let's not kid ourself, we probably had the worst defensive line in division I last season.

Let's face facts, the turnovers continue to expose us. Take the turnovers away and we likely have a winning record right now. I haven't seen the latest numbers but we have to be one of the worst teams in the nation in +/- turnovers!

FirefightnRick · October 20, 2009

I think the FAU game reminds us that our defensive line and the entire front seven is still a work in progress. There has been major improvement but let's not kid ourself, we probably had the worst defensive line in division I last season.
Let's face facts, the turnovers continue to expose us. Take the turnovers away and we likely have a winning record right now. I haven't seen the latest numbers but we have to be one of the worst teams in the nation in +/- turnovers!

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/natlRank.jsp?year...v=IA&dest=O

Yup, we are 117th out of 120 schools with a -1.67 turnover margin. We've gained 7 and lost 17 :unsure:

Rick

Green P1 · October 20, 2009

I think the FAU game reminds us that our defensive line and the entire front seven is still a work in progress. There has been major improvement but let's not kid ourself, we probably had the worst defensive line in division I last season.
Let's face facts, the turnovers continue to expose us. Take the turnovers away and we likely have a winning record right now. I haven't seen the latest numbers but we have to be one of the worst teams in the nation in +/- turnovers!

And to make matters better, we put our only semi-proven commodity 2nd string and out of position.

FirefightnRick · October 20, 2009

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/natlRank.jsp?year...v=IA&dest=O
Yup, we are 117th out of 120 schools with a -1.67 turnover margin. We've gained 7 and lost 17
Rick

Troy is ranked 99th with a -.67 t.o. margin.

By the way, I had thought you figured turn over margin by simply going by how many ahead or behind in turnovers you were, thinking NT was a -10? Not so. The NCAA gets their t.o. margin by taking the amount of gains a team has on the season and subtracts the losses from it, then divides that by the number of games played.

For North Texas:

7(gains)-17(losses)=-10 divided by 6 games played comes out to -1.66666, or -1.67.

The top Belt teams are ULM and MTSU, ranked 50th with a t.o. margin of .33. ULM currently has 6 more take-a-way's than NT does.

Rick

Edited October 20, 2009 by FirefightnRick

CaribbeanGreen · October 20, 2009

And, though i agree with DeLoach's defense being a serious work in progress, we have to frame the numbers in perspective. This would take far more analysis than I have the stomach for, but when DeLoach had a top 20 defense dominating people in the early 00's, we also played Dickeyball, pounding people with the run game, eating up clock, throwing once in a blue moon. An offense like that, when successful (which it sure was in the Hall/Smith/Galbreath/Cobbs/Thomas era) grinds up clock and can really boost a defense statistically.

Not saying one offense is better than another, but running a fast paced spread is going to give our defense a lot more time on the field. Even a defense equal to the early 00's unit would probably have worse numbers with this offense (again, not necessarily relevant to W/L's -- see Texas Tech). Just a frame to try and put some perspective on the numbers. Also, this probably skews our turnover margin as well.

TheTastyGreek · October 20, 2009

Tasty, I love you, but 5.5 ypc is not having a bad game due to miscues by other teams. That's called getting your ass kicked on the DL. Look at the stats for tackles in the game by the DL. I believe there were 4. No sacks, no TFL's. Ass kicked.
BTW, UNT's OL kicked FAU's ass even worse.
ASS.

I love you, too, LonJim. :wub:

I know the defense had a bad game, I'm not blaming the YPC on any other unit. BUT, in terms of the ultimate objective of a defense- keeping the other team from scoring points... They did significantly better on the drives where they didn't have to defend a 40 or 60 yard field.

But, like I said- It was a bad game for the defense.

UNT90 · October 20, 2009

And, though i agree with DeLoach's defense being a serious work in progress, we have to frame the numbers in perspective. This would take far more analysis than I have the stomach for, but when DeLoach had a top 20 defense dominating people in the early 00's, we also played Dickeyball, pounding people with the run game, eating up clock, throwing once in a blue moon. An offense like that, when successful (which it sure was in the Hall/Smith/Galbreath/Cobbs/Thomas era) grinds up clock and can really boost a defense statistically.

I feel that I must point out that our halfback ran for 200 and some odd yards in this game. Kinda makes that a moot point. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I bet we had more running plays than passing plays.

FirefightnRick · October 20, 2009

I feel that I must point out that our halfback ran for 200 and some odd yards in this game. Kinda makes that a moot point. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I bet we had more running plays than passing plays.

36 rush attempts, 24 pass attempts.

Rick

TheTastyGreek · October 20, 2009

You're right, instead of having the worst defense in the nation like last year, Deloach has this group up to 114 out of 120. Amazing turn around. No wonder he receives a minuscule fraction of the criticism Dodge does, that is a 6 spot improvement!
Look, I'm not defending Mendoza or calling for Deloach to be fired. I just want people to give credit where credit is due and to give criticism where criticism is due. The double standards of this board are pathetic and one of the big reasons I can't come around here very often.

Okay, let's talk about that 114 ranking. I'm assuming you're talking about Total Defense?

First off, it's 113, not 114.

Second, adding up the numbers, it appears that point total includes points not scored against the defense. When a rival defense returns a fumble or an interception for a touchdown, or returns a kickoff or punt... That's counted in this point total allowed by the defense. So that means that this year's defensive stats, per the NCAA, are including:

The interception returned for a TD by Ohio

The interception returned for a TD by ULL

The blocked punt returned for a TD by ULL

Anything else like that I'm not remembering

Take those points out of our Total Defense ranking, and our PPG drops by a field goal per game. and we're almost out of the 100s, smack dab next to SMU. Out of the bottom 20 isn't exactly something to hang your hat on... But it's encouraging, given where we're coming from and considering that we've played Alabama and just gone through our worst defensive performance of the year last weekend.

That's not even looking at the drives where the offense turned the ball over in field goal range and the defense allowed points (including at least one where the defense pushed them backwards and they still kicked a field goal). That's not even stopping to consider that another 10 points came in overtime, and those count towards the ranking, too.

It's not perfect, but it is getting better. And it is reflected in the numbers. And when the season is over, that improvement will be even more apparent in those numbers.

greenminer · October 20, 2009

I feel that I must point out that our halfback ran for 200 and some odd yards in this game. Kinda makes that a moot point. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I bet we had more running plays than passing plays.

It's not moot. Dickey's ball-control offense just did not pass. Throwing more than 10 times in a game was airing it for that offense. Line up with those double-TE formations, wait until the play clock got to 5 seconds and then snap.

I am not sure where we tend to snap the ball within the playclock, but we are moving the ball well, and our high ratio of 5 - 7 yard passes compared to running plays slows the clock and allows for more snaps. Thus, more opportunities for yards/stats.

On a side note, watch Houston if you can. There were occassions against Ol Miss where they were snapping the ball with 25 seconds left. Crazy.

Green P1 · October 20, 2009

Couldn't give less of a rip about their ranking, where drives start against them, or how many points shouldn't actually be attributed to them. I want this defense to make a freaking play. Get an interception, force a fumble, hell I'd even settle for a sack or two. Yes this D has improved, but it still has zero ability to make plays. Great, good, average, decent, and serviceable defenses make occasional plays.... we do not.