We Are All About Tradition

TheTastyGreek · October 19, 2009

Here are my simple questions for you: where do you get the money to pull this off and how do you get off saying that we cannot afford Dodge?

Not agitating for a Dodge firing, but the same "we can't afford it" rationale was floated when people were screaming for Dickey's head. And we fired him, with 3 years left on his contract.

Those three years are up after this season. So wherever our buyout money was coming from to pay off Dickey, it's been freed up now.

And I'm confident we could work out some sort of agreement with Dodge. His contract allows the AD's office to transfer him to any job so long as his pay stays the same. I doubt he'd want to spend two years off the coaching radar. Plus, I have a feeling that a Todd Dodge-less team would lead to a Riley Dodge transfer. And if you'll recall from the Vizza situation, Todd didn't have any reservations about initially refusing to let Vizza transfer to ANY other Division 1-A school.

That precedent gives us a hell of a bargaining chip.

Option 1: You can stay here, do nothing in a dark basement corner of the Athletics building, and we'll refuse to release your son for a transfer. But you make a little under half a million bucks over the next two years.

Option 2: You leave, get half that money spread out over those two years, your son can go play for the Longhorns or anyone else that's not on our schedule during his college career. You can immediately snap up a high school job where you'll make somewhere in the low to mid six figures, start rebuilding your coaching reputation, and ultimately come out of the deal with the exact same amount of money (if not more).

Which one do you think he'd choose? If your guess is the same as mine, we'd only be out a quarter of a million dollars, at most, spread out across the two remaining years of his contract. Which is less than a third of what we get for a typical money game these days.

Again, I'm not saying we should fire Dodge. But the argument that we can't afford it doesn't make sense to me. Firing Dickey was more expensive that firing Dodge would be, and we somehow got through it AND had fewer paycheck games than ever this year. And there's no way we're paying Dickey another cent after this season is over, assuming we haven't settled that account already.

Monkeypox · October 19, 2009

Not agitating for a Dodge firing, but the same "we can't afford it" rationale was floated when people were screaming for Dickey's head. And we fired him, with 3 years left on his contract.
Those three years are up after this season. So wherever our buyout money was coming from to pay off Dickey, it's been freed up now.
And I'm confident we could work out some sort of agreement with Dodge. His contract allows the AD's office to transfer him to any job so long as his pay stays the same. I doubt he'd want to spend two years off the coaching radar. Plus, I have a feeling that a Todd Dodge-less team would lead to a Riley Dodge transfer. And if you'll recall from the Vizza situation, Todd didn't have any reservations about initially refusing to let Vizza transfer to ANY other Division 1-A school.
That precedent gives us a hell of a bargaining chip.
Option 1: You can stay here, do nothing in a dark basement corner of the Athletics building, and we'll refuse to release your son for a transfer. But you make a little under half a million bucks over the next two years.
Option 2: You leave, get half that money spread out over those two years, your son can go play for the Longhorns or anyone else that's not on our schedule during his college career. You can immediately snap up a high school job where you'll make somewhere in the low to mid six figures, start rebuilding your coaching reputation, and ultimately come out of the deal with the exact same amount of money (if not more).
Which one do you think he'd choose? If your guess is the same as mine, we'd only be out a quarter of a million dollars, at most, spread out across the two remaining years of his contract. Which is less than a third of what we get for a typical money game these days.
Again, I'm not saying we should fire Dodge. But the argument that we can't afford it doesn't make sense to me. Firing Dickey was more expensive that firing Dodge would be, and we somehow got through it AND had fewer paycheck games than ever this year. And there's no way we're paying Dickey another cent after this season is over, assuming we haven't settled that account already.

So you want to waste a 3rd of one of our money games on firing someone whose replacement will come in and start another rebuild? That's why it doesn't make any sense. We're recruiting better, getting more fans to games, and making more money than we were during Dickey's last years. Oh, we're not winning any more? Well, guess what? It's not going to happen no matter WHO you bring in at this salary level. So people just need to accept things for what they are. Once we can become a laughing stock bottom-feeder with MONEY, then we can make these kinds of decisions. Until that day, however, learn to deal with it.

Also, I don't think using that kind of leverage is what you want to do when trying to convince another coach to come here for peanuts.

TheTastyGreek · October 19, 2009

So you want to waste a 3rd of one of our money games on firing someone whose replacement will come in and start another rebuild? That's why it doesn't make any sense. We're recruiting better, getting more fans to games, and making more money than we were during Dickey's last years. Oh, we're not winning any more? Well, guess what? It's not going to happen no matter WHO you bring in at this salary level. So people just need to accept things for what they are. Once we can become a laughing stock bottom-feeder with MONEY, then we can make these kinds of decisions. Until that day, however, learn to deal with it.
Also, I don't think using that kind of leverage is what you want to do when trying to convince another coach to come here for peanuts.

If you'll note, I started and finished by saying I DON'T think we should fire Dodge and just bring in someone else. DON'T. I'm NOT saying we should do what you're jumping on me about.

However... There are one or two guys that I think we should contact discreetly to gauge their interest in the job and the accompanying salary/budget. If one of them would take it, fire Dodge and hand the program over to them. If not, don't just throw the door open for another coaching search... We may as well grit our teeth and hope for the best next year. Unless we know that we can bring in an available coach who can get the job done for what we can afford to pay, I don't think now is the time for a change.

If we were going to admit defeat and start over, the time to do it was last year. At this point, we may as well just gut it out and hope the pieces all come together next season. The talent is certainly there.

untjim1995 · October 19, 2009

If you'll note, I started and finished by saying I DON'T think we should fire Dodge and just bring in someone else. DON'T. I'm NOT saying we should do what you're jumping on me about.
However... There are one or two guys that I think we should contact discreetly to gauge their interest in the job and the accompanying salary/budget. If one of them would take it, fire Dodge and hand the program over to them. If not, don't just throw the door open for another coaching search... We may as well grit our teeth and hope for the best next year. Unless we know that we can bring in an available coach who can get the job done for what we can afford to pay, I don't think now is the time for a change.
If we were going to admit defeat and start over, the time to do it was last year. At this point, we may as well just gut it out and hope the pieces all come together next season. The talent is certainly there.

TTG is right about this if we could do both--arbitrate a deal with TDodge while also having a contingent deal ready to go with a Kragthorpe or a Franchione--type hire. But, my guess is that the price tag would still be too high right now, which makes enxt year a compelling year for eveybody involved. Either Dodge win 8+ games or he is gone and we can begin a legitimate search while the season is unfolding to see who would be available and how much the cost would be as we enter intot he new stadium.

TheTastyGreek · October 19, 2009

TTG is right about this if we could do both--arbitrate a deal with TDodge while also having a contingent deal ready to go with a Kragthorpe or a Franchione--type hire. But, my guess is that the price tag would still be too high right now, which makes enxt year a compelling year for eveybody involved. Either Dodge win 8+ games or he is gone and we can begin a legitimate search while the season is unfolding to see who would be available and how much the cost would be as we enter intot he new stadium.

+1

As for how using a Riley transfer as negotiating leverage might affect our pool of interested candidates... We fired our last coach less than 4 weeks after he had a heart attack, and that didn't seem to deter many people from pursuing the job. Using a precedent established by the coach as a negotiating chip in reaching a settlement? That seems far less ruthless to me.

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 19, 2009

TTG is right about this if we could do both--arbitrate a deal with TDodge while also having a contingent deal ready to go with a Kragthorpe or a Franchione--type hire. But, my guess is that the price tag would still be too high right now, which makes enxt year a compelling year for eveybody involved. Either Dodge win 8+ games or he is gone and we can begin a legitimate search while the season is unfolding to see who would be available and how much the cost would be as we enter intot he new stadium.

I actually think if you bring Dodge back for a fourth year, unless he only wins 1 or 2 games in the fourth year, you bring him back for the fifth year. If they only win one more game this year (which i am starting to actually doubt that is going to happen) it will be hard pressed for them to win 8+ in his fourth year. I am like TTG in that I don't think you get rid of him now, but I also think if you give him a year four, you should go ahead and give him a year five also.

untcampbell · October 20, 2009

I love the discussion that this board affords, but I have always argued this type of arm-chair AD back and forth, in this public forum does not help our program....even if you are right.

Know I am in the minority in that...just wish someone could explain to me how it does help.

"I care about my school so much and this brilliance that I share with the program, at no charge, helps my university by ______________________________________________________."

One other question, to those that were most vocal in the anti-Dickey vitriol: do you really feel your posts got Dickey fired? The AD couldn't figure it out without you? And wouldn't have acted without you? Great work, bruthuh.

Flame on,

GMG

TheTastyGreek · October 20, 2009

I actually think if you bring Dodge back for a fourth year, unless he only wins 1 or 2 games in the fourth year, you bring him back for the fifth year. If they only win one more game this year (which i am starting to actually doubt that is going to happen) it will be hard pressed for them to win 8+ in his fourth year. I am like TTG in that I don't think you get rid of him now, but I also think if you give him a year four, you should go ahead and give him a year five also.

The other option that avoids a complete transition/rebuild and avoids a significant increase in costs would be to promote a current member of the coaching staff to Head Coach for two years, until Dodge's contract/buyout would be over. That way, there's as seamless a transition as you can possibly get and we're not paying out the nose for a new outsider head coach.

If the powers that be decide within the next two years that Dodge just can't lead the team to success, but that the staff and the philosophy are in place to succeed with our available talent, we could promote a capable member of the current staff to run the team.

Got5onIt · October 20, 2009

Kragthorpe or Franchione would probably laugh at a lower tier Sunbelt school offering them a HC job with a big12's janitor salary. Now the guy I think we should seriously target is Troy's former OC. The guy that was canned by Auburn.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Got5onIt

TheTastyGreek · October 20, 2009

Kragthorpe or Franchione would probably laugh at a lower tier Sunbelt school offering them a HC job with a big12's janitor salary. Now the guy I think we should seriously target is Troy's former OC. The guy that was canned by Auburn.

Fran went for the San Diego State job that wound up going to Brady Hoke. I think his buyout ends this year, and he's itching for a chance to get back into coaching a D-1A school.

Given that he has almost more than he can reasonably spend in the rest of his lifetime, I'd wager that salary isn't the driving force behind his pursuit of a new head coaching opportunity. Given that he wanted the San Diego State job, I doubt it's institutional prestige.

Right now, there's a pretty damn good coach out there that's unemployed and aggressively seeking a new job.

He's already taken a metroplex school that went 1-10 the year before he got there and turned it into a 7 win program in YEAR ONE.

That same school hadn't seen 8 wins since 1984, and he got them there in his second year.

He has 10 years as a head coach at Texas colleges, so he knows how to recruit this state.

He can point to numerous former players in the NFL as examples of what he's done for previous recruits.

If that's not enough, he can point to the wins he had over Texas in his last two years at A&M.

Since starting at TCU, he had exactly two sub-.500 years out of 10, and one of those was a 5-6 season.

In his first year at TCU, he beat Iowa State, USC, and Vanderbilt.

Can he succeed at a moribund metroplex school? Yes.

Can he turn such a program around quickly? Yes.

Can he win OOC games with a lower division school? Yes.

I wouldn't fire Dodge for Tony Franklin, Franklin is still a bit of a gamble. But I'd certainly fire Dodge if I knew Franchione would take this job for a price we could afford. Fran probably wouldn't stick around more than two or three years, but he'd have to win during that time to punch his ticket out of town.

And I'm very comfortable with the idea of shopping for a new coach if we're fresh off a bowl season or two, with a fancy new stadium to play in.

UNT90 · October 20, 2009

So you want to waste a 3rd of one of our money games on firing someone whose replacement will come in and start another rebuild? That's why it doesn't make any sense. We're recruiting better, getting more fans to games, and making more money than we were during Dickey's last years. Oh, we're not winning any more? Well, guess what? It's not going to happen no matter WHO you bring in at this salary level. So people just need to accept things for what they are. Once we can become a laughing stock bottom-feeder with MONEY, then we can make these kinds of decisions. Until that day, however, learn to deal with it.

I don't accept 4-30whatever it is now. If you think people will continue to spend their money on a product that never improves, your wrong. Maybe that's not what you meant. The way I see it, we are faced with a very small window (about three years) to either build a fan base and get accepted to a better conference, or become a football irrelevant and see attendance dwindle.

I don't know what the answer is at this point. T. Dodge has to prove that he can coach at this level at some point. He hasn't yet. When will he? How long do you wait for the talent on the field to translate to victories? If you believe that we are the more talented team in some games that we have lost, then isn't it a coaching problem that lost those games? How many games did you feel that we were the better coached team?

I'm not saying he should be fired. RV will assess the program at the end of the year and make that decision. I'm sure he knows what's at stake and will make the decision that is best for UNT. I am saying that I don't know what the answer is.

I'm saying I'm sick as s&*$ of losing.

Got5onIt · October 20, 2009

Fran went for the San Diego State job that wound up going to Brady Hoke. I think his buyout ends this year, and he's itching for a chance to get back into coaching a D-1A school.
Given that he has almost more than he can reasonably spend in the rest of his lifetime, I'd wager that salary isn't the driving force behind his pursuit of a new head coaching opportunity. Given that he wanted the San Diego State job, I doubt it's institutional prestige.
Right now, there's a pretty damn good coach out there that's unemployed and aggressively seeking a new job.
He's already taken a metroplex school that went 1-10 the year before he got there and turned it into a 7 win program in YEAR ONE.
That same school hadn't seen 8 wins since 1984, and he got them there in his second year.
He has 10 years as a head coach at Texas colleges, so he knows how to recruit this state.
He can point to numerous former players in the NFL as examples of what he's done for previous recruits.
If that's not enough, he can point to the wins he had over Texas in his last two years at A&M.
Since starting at TCU, he had exactly two sub-.500 years out of 10, and one of those was a 5-6 season.
In his first year at TCU, he beat Iowa State, USC, and Vanderbilt.
Can he succeed at a moribund metroplex school? Yes.
Can he turn such a program around quickly? Yes.
Can he win OOC games with a lower division school? Yes.
I wouldn't fire Dodge for Tony Franklin, Franklin is still a bit of a gamble. But I'd certainly fire Dodge if I knew Franchione would take this job for a price we could afford. Fran probably wouldn't stick around more than two or three years, but he'd have to win during that time to punch his ticket out of town.
And I'm very comfortable with the idea of shopping for a new coach if we're fresh off a bowl season or two, with a fancy new stadium to play in.

Well, I'm throwing Franklin's hat in there for the fact he knows the sun belt and was a very important part of Troy winning the SBC title & New Orleans Bowl. The guy turned Omar Haugebook into a helluva QB. But I can see your point in him being as risky as TD. I would want more experience there when Dodge is fired.

Edited October 20, 2009 by Got5onIt

aztecskin · October 20, 2009

Well, I'm throwing Franklin's hat in there for the fact he knows the sun belt and was a very important part of Troy winning the SBC title & New Orleans Bowl. The guy turned Omar Haugebook into a helluva QB. But I can see your point in him being as risky as TD. I would want more experience there when Dodge is fired.

I dunno if he is as risky as hiring an a HS coach. I mean, TF has coached in D-1 programs since 97. (okay he took a break to do some Arena stuff)

TIgreen01 · October 20, 2009

I don't accept 4-30whatever it is now. If you think people will continue to spend their money on a product that never improves, your wrong. Maybe that's not what you meant. The way I see it, we are faced with a very small window (about three years) to either build a fan base and get accepted to a better conference, or become a football irrelevant and see attendance dwindle.
I don't know what the answer is at this point. T. Dodge has to prove that he can coach at this level at some point. He hasn't yet. When will he? How long do you wait for the talent on the field to translate to victories? If you believe that we are the more talented team in some games that we have lost, then isn't it a coaching problem that lost those games? How many games did you feel that we were the better coached team?
I'm not saying he should be fired. RV will assess the program at the end of the year and make that decision. I'm sure he knows what's at stake and will make the decision that is best for UNT. I am saying that I don't know what the answer is.
I'm saying I'm sick as s&*$ of losing.

Agreed.

One other thing, it is obvious that the team has improved greatly since last year. But it is flat out embarrassing playing FAU year in and year out and watching our coaching staff get completely dominated.

untjim1995 · October 20, 2009

The way I see it, we are faced with a very small window (about three years) to either build a fan base and get accepted to a better conference, or become a football irrelevant and see attendance dwindle.

If you really believe we have to get into a new conference in the next 3 years or we will be irrelevant, I have some bad news for you--we're gonna be irrelevant then. We ain't going to a new conference that soon, I can promise you that. First of all, there is nowhere to go--unless we go to the WAC, which isn't going to help our situation. If CUSA had an opening, they will add a team in the SE to add balance. The non-Texas schools don't want another Texas school and the other Texas schools don't want us either (i.e., SMU likes LaTech).

As for attendance dwindling, I just don't see it happening so dramatically that we lose half our fanbase by the end of next year. Either we get a new hire going into a new stadium, which will bring big interest for two huge reasons, or we start winning and the attendance gains we have seen over the last 3 years will continue.

BTW, there was also the question about why would Coach Fran or Kragthorpe come here when the pay isn't great. Well, two reasons--one that was mentioned earlier by TTG is that Fran wants to coach badly again and has more money that he will ever have a need for in his lifetime. My biggest fear with Fran would be that he pulls a Dennis Erickson--leave after one or two years to go get another big job somewhere because of his past success at everywhere but A&M, which is looking more and more like a program that cannot compete in their league instead of being the place that Fran destroyed, as most Ags think right now. Kragthorpe is going to need a place to rebuild his reputation--no BCS school is going to hire him again as a head coach. Now, he could find contentment in being an OC and make a lot of cash, but I bet you his success as a head coach at Tulsa has more impact on becoming a head coach again instead of just giving up and going to be an OC with less control. The $$$ will matter with him, but I think we could be in a place by next year to compel him to look our way, too.

All said, what I really want in all of this is for Todd Dodge to have a great amount of success and be the coach here for many years to come. He is a good guy, a great recruiter, and a man that I would want my son to play for. And believe it or not, I haven't given up on him yet, even with the poor record. He has a lot of work to do, but I think he can do it and that success will happen here during his tenure.

CaribbeanGreen · October 20, 2009

If you really believe we have to get into a new conference in the next 3 years or we will be irrelevant, I have some bad news for you--we're gonna be irrelevant then. We ain't going to a new conference that soon, I can promise you that. First of all, there is nowhere to go--unless we go to the WAC, which isn't going to help our situation. If CUSA had an opening, they will add a team in the SE to add balance. The non-Texas schools don't want another Texas school and the other Texas schools don't want us either (i.e., SMU likes LaTech).
As for attendance dwindling, I just don't see it happening so dramatically that we lose half our fanbase by the end of next year. Either we get a new hire going into a new stadium, which will bring big interest for two huge reasons, or we start winning and the attendance gains we have seen over the last 3 years will continue.
BTW, there was also the question about why would Coach Fran or Kragthorpe come here when the pay isn't great. Well, two reasons--one that was mentioned earlier by TTG is that Fran wants to coach badly again and has more money that he will ever have a need for in his lifetime. My biggest fear with Fran would be that he pulls a Dennis Erickson--leave after one or two years to go get another big job somewhere because of his past success at everywhere but A&M, which is looking more and more like a program that cannot compete in their league instead of being the place that Fran destroyed, as most Ags think right now. Kragthorpe is going to need a place to rebuild his reputation--no BCS school is going to hire him again as a head coach. Now, he could find contentment in being an OC and make a lot of cash, but I bet you his success as a head coach at Tulsa has more impact on becoming a head coach again instead of just giving up and going to be an OC with less control. The $$$ will matter with him, but I think we could be in a place by next year to compel him to look our way, too.
All said, what I really want in all of this is for Todd Dodge to have a great amount of success and be the coach here for many years to come. He is a good guy, a great recruiter, and a man that I would want my son to play for. And believe it or not, I haven't given up on him yet, even with the poor record. He has a lot of work to do, but I think he can do it and that success will happen here during his tenure.

Fair points, but as Tasty said - if Fran was here and moves on after a couple of seasons, that means he turned us around quickly and dramatically enough to rebuild his reputation. I'll take that. We do the coaching search again, promote from within Fran's staff (worked for TCU), whatever. As for Kragthorpe, he's been here before. He knows NT. I'd get a Chris Matthews level leg tingle (and maybe a semi!) if he looked our way again.

These, of course, are moderate long shots and no-brainers. And again, not blatantly calling for a change... just dealing in hypotheticals and responding to other scenarios.

Got5onIt · October 20, 2009

I dunno if he is as risky as hiring an a HS coach. I mean, TF has coached in D-1 programs since 97. (okay he took a break to do some Arena stuff)

My wording was off. Definitely not even close to being as risky as a high school coach. I think TF is a solid candidate. I'd still take Franocchio or Kragthumper 10 times out of 10 over anyone out there (if money grew on trees).

TheTastyGreek · October 20, 2009

Well, I'm throwing Franklin's hat in there for the fact he knows the sun belt and was a very important part of Troy winning the SBC title & New Orleans Bowl. The guy turned Omar Haugebook into a helluva QB. But I can see your point in him being as risky as TD. I would want more experience there when Dodge is fired.

I've got a list of assistants and lower division guys I'd like to see considered if the day comes when we are looking for a coach, and Franklin would certainly be worthy of consideration.

I just meant that he wouldn't be worth the risk of firing Dodge in the near future. If we need a coach a year from now, I'd definitely love to see Franklin interviewed... But I think we could do even better if we go the assistant route. That's not to diminish Franklin, that's just an opinion on the caliber of local BCS assistants who haven't been able to get their shot at a head coaching gig.

Got5onIt · October 21, 2009

BTW, there was also the question about why would Coach Fran or Kragthorpe come here when the pay isn't great. Well, two reasons--one that was mentioned earlier by TTG is that Fran wants to coach badly again and has more money that he will ever have a need for in his lifetime. My biggest fear with Fran would be that he pulls a Dennis Erickson--leave after one or two years to go get another big job somewhere because of his past success at everywhere but A&M, which is looking more and more like a program that cannot compete in their league instead of being the place that Fran destroyed, as most Ags think right now. Kragthorpe is going to need a place to rebuild his reputation--no BCS school is going to hire him again as a head coach. Now, he could find contentment in being an OC and make a lot of cash, but I bet you his success as a head coach at Tulsa has more impact on becoming a head coach again instead of just giving up and going to be an OC with less control. The $$$ will matter with him, but I think we could be in a place by next year to compel him to look our way, too.

Franchione isn't called Franocchio for nothin'.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Got5onIt

untjim1995 · October 21, 2009

Franchione isn't called Franocchio for nothin'.

Are you implying that he fabricates the truth? If so, maybe he fabricate to future recruits regarding a 40K stadium here at UNT that will be top of the line!! Who cares is it only seats 25K, right?!! :lol:

Stan R · October 21, 2009

Who cares is it only seats 25K, right?!!

Fixed seating or actual capacity?

untjim1995 · October 21, 2009

Fixed seating or actual capacity?

Who cares--it keep getting smaller as we go!! In all seriousness, a stadium that seats 28K will end up being ok, I just wish it seated 32K, like at UH. Anything will beat Fouts!!

Monkeypox · November 25, 2009

I think the fallacy in much of the thinking here isn't that money doesn't matter, but that somehow we'll be the highest payer to these people, or the only one to offer them a HC position. It's not that Franchione or Kragthorpe wouldn't come here for the money, IF we were the only one to offer. It's that someone else will offer them more money, and more than likely at a better school. Heck, I'd love either one of them, but if they interview here, it's to create some interest and leverage. They'll interview here, a CUSA school or two, a lower-tier Big-12/Pac-10/SEC school. And guess where they'll end up (hint: not NT).

football fan · November 26, 2009

Two things will help our Defense going forward:

1) limit turnovers to max of 1 per game or every other game (including protecting the punter)

2) use every scolly we have available on def lineman (this is the hardest position to find quality) + add a couple more LBs.

I think we have a nice group of DBs, LBs, OL, RBs, Recievers and QBs. We just have to keep the D off the field as much as they have been over past several years. Keith7, you agree?

(have not looked closely at the exact stats but would venture to say the btw INTs, fumbles and blocked punts, we are averaging 3 TOs per game. no way you win doing that)

Edited November 26, 2009 by football fan