Wh Calls Health Care Anger 'manufactured'

[FirefightnRick]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/a...=home_headlines

"I hope people will take a jaundiced eye to what is clearly the Astroturf nature of grass-roots lobbying," said White House press secretary Robert Gibbs during a morning off-camera session in his office with reporters.

"This is manufactured anger," he said.

Mr. Gibbs implied that the Republican Party is using operatives to make it appear as if members of the administration and of Congress are encountering genuine outrage and anger over the president's proposed health care reforms.

Who you gonna believe, The White House, or your Lyin' Eyes!

Rick

[EagleD]

I'm certainly not going to believe anything I read in the "Washington Times".

[UNT90]

I think we can tell the Socialized Medicine bill to burn in hell. Saw two news reports last night about the amount of opposition to the bill that democrats are receiving upon their return to their districts. If poloticians are anything, they are self-survivors. They won't risk their own unemployment (and having to move away form the porky trough of all troughs), even for rock band that is Pres. Obama.

The first of many stands against socialism in the coming 3 years.

[SilverEagle]

Well here is an e-mail sent to me by AARP.

Dear

If your inbox is anything like mine, you're getting a lot of emails about how SCARY health reform is. From allegations about rationing care to wild reports of government-sponsored euthanasia, the rumors just keep getting crazier.

And I've had enough. Enough of the fear-mongering. Enough of the myths and unfounded rumors. Enough of the interest groups twisting the truth to stop health reform.

I'm fighting back – and I'm asking for your help!

Below I've debunked some of the common myths going around. Will you forward this email to your friends and help get the truth out about reform?

The truth is real reform is at risk because opponents are using scare tactics and slogans to gin up fear and misunderstandings. Don't let that happen.

Sincerely,

Barry Jackson

AARP Online Advocacy Manager

P.S. Let's make sure everyone gets the truth. After you've forwarded the message below, please share these myths and facts on Facebook if you have an account, or post them on other networking sites. If you're active on Twitter, please tweet the truth now.

******Delete the text above and forward this message to friends and family ******

Hi,

My inbox has been flooded with emails spreading crazy rumors about health reform so I wanted to share some facts from AARP about what's really going on. Please join me in forwarding these facts to everyone you know. Print them out and pass them around at your social gatherings and other places where people are discussing the issues of the day.

FACT #1: Medicare will not be ended, and no benefits or services will be cut.

Your services will not be ended, nor will your benefits be cut. AARP's position on this could not be clearer. And we have sent this message loud and clear to Congress. While the current proposals include savings in Medicare by cutting out fraud, abuse, waste, and inefficiency, we're standing up and making sure benefits for Medicare recipients are not only fully protected, but are improved.1

FACT #2: No legislation currently in Congress would mandate the rationing of care. Period.

Our staff has read all of the legislation circulating in Congress and there are no provisions in these bills that would ration care for our members. None. If any ever did, we would vigorously fight to stop that legislation.2

FACT #3: There is no provision of any piece of legislation that would promote euthanasia of any kind.

The rumors out there are flat out lies. Right now Medicare does not cover counseling for end-of-life care. The portion of the bill in question would simply provide coverage for optional end-of-life consultations with doctors, so that the patient can be aware of all of the treatment options on the table. It is not mandatory and it has nothing to do with euthanasia.3

FACT #4: We have not endorsed President Obama's plan.

In fact, we haven't endorsed any plan. We are supporting reform of our health care system, something that AARP has pushed for many years. We're working closely with Republican and Democratic members of Congress to lower health care costs and to ensure quality affordable coverage for older Americans – and we want reform legislation passed and signed by the president this year.4

So what is AARP fighting for in health reform?

Stopping insurance companies from charging older Americans unaffordable premiums because of their age.

Ending the practice of excluding people from insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

Holding down health costs and making insurance coverage more affordable for all Americans.

Making prescription drugs more affordable by narrowing the Medicare doughnut hole, bringing generics to market faster, and allowing Medicare to negotiate better drug prices.

Find out more and take action at HealthActionNow.org.

Thanks,

[emmitt01]

Well here is an e-mail sent to me by AARP.

Dear

If your inbox is anything like mine, you're getting a lot of emails about how SCARY health reform is. From allegations about rationing care to wild reports of government-sponsored euthanasia, the rumors just keep getting crazier.

And I've had enough. Enough of the fear-mongering. Enough of the myths and unfounded rumors. Enough of the interest groups twisting the truth to stop health reform.

I'm fighting back – and I'm asking for your help!

Below I've debunked some of the common myths going around. Will you forward this email to your friends and help get the truth out about reform?

The truth is real reform is at risk because opponents are using scare tactics and slogans to gin up fear and misunderstandings. Don't let that happen.

Sincerely,

Barry Jackson

AARP Online Advocacy Manager

P.S. Let's make sure everyone gets the truth. After you've forwarded the message below, please share these myths and facts on Facebook if you have an account, or post them on other networking sites. If you're active on Twitter, please tweet the truth now.

******Delete the text above and forward this message to friends and family ******

Hi,

My inbox has been flooded with emails spreading crazy rumors about health reform so I wanted to share some facts from AARP about what's really going on. Please join me in forwarding these facts to everyone you know. Print them out and pass them around at your social gatherings and other places where people are discussing the issues of the day.

FACT #1: Medicare will not be ended, and no benefits or services will be cut.

Your services will not be ended, nor will your benefits be cut. AARP's position on this could not be clearer. And we have sent this message loud and clear to Congress. While the current proposals include savings in Medicare by cutting out fraud, abuse, waste, and inefficiency, we're standing up and making sure benefits for Medicare recipients are not only fully protected, but are improved.1

FACT #2: No legislation currently in Congress would mandate the rationing of care. Period.

Our staff has read all of the legislation circulating in Congress and there are no provisions in these bills that would ration care for our members. None. If any ever did, we would vigorously fight to stop that legislation.2

FACT #3: There is no provision of any piece of legislation that would promote euthanasia of any kind.

The rumors out there are flat out lies. Right now Medicare does not cover counseling for end-of-life care. The portion of the bill in question would simply provide coverage for optional end-of-life consultations with doctors, so that the patient can be aware of all of the treatment options on the table. It is not mandatory and it has nothing to do with euthanasia.3

FACT #4: We have not endorsed President Obama's plan.

In fact, we haven't endorsed any plan. We are supporting reform of our health care system, something that AARP has pushed for many years. We're working closely with Republican and Democratic members of Congress to lower health care costs and to ensure quality affordable coverage for older Americans – and we want reform legislation passed and signed by the president this year.4

So what is AARP fighting for in health reform?

Stopping insurance companies from charging older Americans unaffordable premiums because of their age.

Ending the practice of excluding people from insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

Holding down health costs and making insurance coverage more affordable for all Americans.

Making prescription drugs more affordable by narrowing the Medicare doughnut hole, bringing generics to market faster, and allowing Medicare to negotiate better drug prices.

Find out more and take action at HealthActionNow.org.

Thanks,

Shhhhhhh. It's far more fun to use Republican scare tactics (hell, they worked for the 8 years prior) and hyperbole, or to compare the President who the people elected to a "rock star" or "christ figure", than to let the political process work on its own. If we don't put rumors of the boogey man out there for the people to digest then how can we expect them to make an informed decision?

[cwb]

Ok. Now this could be interesting. We now have the policeman and the fireman on the same thread on different sides of the health care issue. You two seem to me to be on top of these things.

How about an intellectual debate on the subject between you two right here to help educate the ignorant (me) on this issue. A debate about facts and not a platform to spew hate.

I want both sides to answer questions like:

Why the rush to pass?

Will most of us hate it like in Canada?

Will a middle class guy like me have a good deal or bad?

Etc.

It does not have to be just the fireman and the policeman. Everyone join in but please be factual and not hateful. I am really trying to get educated.

BTW, thank you for your service firemen and policemen.

ps. yes I am dreaming if I think a mannerly even semi-intelligent deabate will occur.

[emmitt01]

ps. yes I am dreaming if I think a mannerly even semi-intelligent deabate will occur.

Truest words of your post. No, not ever, on this board.

[cwb]

Oh well. One can only try.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--Re: Honesty......

Tell me again.... Where are those WMD...???

And again... We are Conservative ...

and then doubling the National debt in 8 years.... which means increasing increasing it as much as all 42 previous Democratic and Repubilcan presidents...combined.... . It is tough to believe what you hear from those guys.... that is why they are now out of power..

You can also toss in how well they managed the economy and what shape it was in as of Dec., 2008....as compared to Dec., 2000 when there was actually a budget surplus... The Truth hurts to those guys..... It just isn't what they want it to be.

Edited August 7, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNTflyer]

--Re: Honesty......

Tell me again.... Where are those WMD...???

And again... We are Conservative ...

and then doubling the National debt in 8 years.... which means increasing increasing it as much as all 42 previous Democratic and Repubilcan presidents...combined.... . It is tough to believe what you hear from those guys.... that is why they are now out of power..

You can also toss in how well they managed the economy and what shape it was in as of Dec., 2008....as compared to Dec., 2000 when there was actually a budget surplus... The Truth hurts to those guys..... It just isn't what they want it to be.

US Deficit Climbs to 1.3 Trillion

So you're mad about Bush doubling the debt in 8 years, where's your outrage about Obama QUADRUPLING the deficit in just 7 months?

[UNTflyer]

I'm certainly not going to believe anything I read in the "Washington Times".

Yeah, they probably completely manufactured the quote. If only there were other news sources to confirm it.

http://www.examiner.com/x-15898-Cincinnati...is-manufactured

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124939676158504833.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8252205&page=1

http://townhall.com/columnists/JonahGoldbe..._on_health_care

[UNT90]

Shhhhhhh. It's far more fun to use Republican scare tactics (hell, they worked for the 8 years prior) and hyperbole, or to compare the President who the people elected to a "rock star" or "christ figure", than to let the political process work on its own. If we don't put rumors of the boogey man out there for the people to digest then how can we expect them to make an informed decision?

This is the political process. We could cover the democratic scare tactics, but that is just a big waste of time. I was commenting on the response of people who attend community meetings to socialized medicine. And yes, if you have been on the cover of people magazine 1 trllion times, you have rock star status, whether you are a republican or a democrat.

But keep on cheering for your team.

Quick question: What do you mean by the "political process working on it's own."

Edited August 7, 2009 by UNT90

[FirefightnRick]

Maybe we should notify the White House Snitch website to report this guy also. His name is Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) who is reading House Bill 3200 and reporting what his findings are, just as most of the Conservative outlets have been doing, and has been posting his findings on Twitter. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman’s, not mine).

Pg 16: SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE. lines 3-26 of the HC Bill – OUTLAWS PRIVATE INSURANCE by forbidding enrollment after HR 3022 is passed into law.

Pg 21-22: SEC. 113. INSURANCE RATING RULES of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

Pg 29: SEC. 122. ESSENTIAL BENEFITS PACKAGE DEFINED: lines 4-16 in the HC bill – YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!

Pg 30: SEC. 123. HEALTH BENEFITS ADVISORY COMMITTEE of HC bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

Pg 42: SEC. 142. DUTIES AND AUTHORITY OF COMMISSIONER of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!

PG 50-51: SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE in HC bill – HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, ILLEGAL or otherwise.

Pg 58: SEC. 163. ADMINISTRATIVE SIMPLIFICATION HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Healthcard will be issued!

Pg 59: SEC. 163. ADMINISTRATIVE SIMPLIFICATIONHC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have DIRECT access to your BANK ACCOUNTS for electronic funds transfer. This means the government can go in and take your money right out of your bank account.

PG 65: SEC. 164. REINSURANCE PROGRAM FOR RETIREES is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions and community orgs (ACORN).

Pg 72: SEC. 201. ESTABLISHMENT OF HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE; OUTLINE OF DUTIES; DEFINITIONS Lines 8-14 Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private HC plans under Government control.

PG 84: SEC. 203. BENEFITS PACKAGE LEVELS HC Bill – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange

PG 85: SEC. 203. BENEFITS PACKAGE LEVELS Line 7 HC Bill – SPECIFICATION OF BENEFIT LEVELS FOR PLANS = The Government will ration your Healthcare!

PG 91: SEC. 204. CONTRACTS FOR THE OFFERING OF EXCHANGE-PARTICIPATING HEALTH BENEFITS PLANS Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Government mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example – Translation for illegal aliens!

Pg 95: SEC. 205. OUTREACH AND ENROLLMENT OF EXCHANGE-ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS AND EMPLOYERS IN EXCHANGE-PARTICIPATING HEALTH BENEFITS PLAN HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Government will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Government HC plan.

PG 102: SEC. 205. OUTREACH AND ENROLLMENT OF EXCHANGE-ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUALS AND EMPLOYERS IN EXCHANGE-PARTICIPATING HEALTH BENEFITS PLAN Lines 12-18 HC Bill – Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No choice!

pg 124: SEC. 223. PAYMENT RATES FOR ITEMS AND SERVICES lines 24-25 HC No company can sue the GOVERNMENT on price fixing! No “judicial review” against Government Monopoly!!

pg 127: SEC. 225. PROVIDER PARTICIPATION Lines 1-16 HC Bill – Doctors/ AMA – The Government will tell YOU what you can make.

Pg 145: SEC. 312. EMPLOYER RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS EMPLOYEE AND DEPENDENT COVERAGE Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE!!

Pg 146: SEC. 312. EMPLOYER RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTRIBUTE TOWARDS EMPLOYEE AND DEPENDENT COVERAGE Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

Pg 149: SEC. 313. EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS IN LIEU OF COVERAGE Lines 16-24 ANY Employer with payroll of $400k and above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.

pg 150: SEC. 313. EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS IN LIEU OF COVERAGE Lines 9-13 Business’s with payroll between $251k – $400k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Pg 167: SEC. 401. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Government will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Pg 170: SEC. 401. TAX ON INDIVIDUALS WITHOUT ACCEPTABLE HEALTH CARE COVERAGE Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is EXEMPT from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)

Pg 195: HC Bill – SEC. 421. CREDIT FOR SMALL BUSINESS EMPLOYEE HEALTH COVERAGE EXPENSES Officers and employees of HC Administration (GOVERNMENT) will have access to ALL Americans financial and personal records!

PG 203: SEC. 441. SURCHARGE ON HIGH INCOME INDIVIDUALS Line 14-15 HC – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that!

Pg 239: SEC. 1121. SUSTAINABLE GROWTH RATE REFORM Line 14-24 HC Bill Government will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.

Pg 241: SEC. 1121. SUSTAINABLE GROWTH RATE REFORM Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors, doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same.

PG 253: SEC. 1122. MISVALUED CODES UNDER THE PHYSICIAN FEE

SCHEDULE Line 10-18 Government sets value of Doctor’s time, professional judgment, etc. Literally value of humans.

PG 265: SEC. 1131. INCORPORATING PRODUCTIVITY IMPROVEMENTS INTO MARKET BASKET UPDATES THAT DO NOT ALREADY INCORPORATE SUCH IMPROVEMENTS. Government mandates and controls productivity for private HC industries.

PG 268: SEC. 1141. RENTAL AND PURCHASE OF POWER-DRIVEN WHEELCHAIRS. Federal Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs

PG 272: SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing!

Page 280: SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS The Government will penalize hospitals for what Government deems preventable readmissions.

Pg 298: SEC. 1151. REDUCING POTENTIALLY PREVENTABLE HOSPITAL READMISSIONS Lines 9-11 Doctors! Treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission? Government will penalize you.

Pg 317: SEC. 1156. LIMITATION ON MEDICARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE PROHIBITION ON CERTAIN PHYSICIAN REFERRALS MADE TO HOSPITALS Lines 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership and investment! Government tells Doctors what and how much they can own!

Pg 317-318: SEC. 1156. LIMITATION ON MEDICARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE PROHIBITION ON CERTAIN PHYSICIAN REFERRALS MADE TO HOSPITALS lines 21-25, 1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion – Government is mandating hospitals cannot expand!

pg 321: SEC. 1156. LIMITATION ON MEDICARE EXCEPTIONS TO THE PROHIBITION ON CERTAIN PHYSICIAN REFERRALS MADE TO HOSPITALS Lines 2-13 Hospitals have option to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!

Pg 335: SEC. 1162. QUALITY BONUS PAYMENTS Lines 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Government mandates establishment of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

Pg 341: SEC. 1162. QUALITY BONUS PAYMENTS Lines 3-9 Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Government plan.

Pg 354: SEC. 1177. EXTENSION OF AUTHORITY OF SPECIAL NEEDS PLANS TO RESTRICT ENROLLMENT – Government will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people! OMG! My sister has Downs Syndrome!!!

Pg 379: SEC. 1191. TELEHEALTH EXPANSION AND ENHANCEMENTS Government creates more bureaucracy – Telehealth Advisory Committee Can you say HC by phone?

PG 425: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 4-12 Government mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

Pg 425: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 17-19 Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

PG 425: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Government provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death!

PG 427: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 15-24 Government mandates program for orders for end of life. The Government has a say in how your life ends!

Pg 429: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 1-9 An “advance care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.

PG 429: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 10-12 “advance care consultation” may include an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

Pg 429: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 13-25 – The Government will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

PG 430: SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION Lines 11-15 The Government will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life.

Pg 469: SEC. 1302. MEDICAL HOME PILOT PROGRAM Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit organizations. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?

Page 472: SEC. 1302. MEDICAL HOME PILOT PROGRAM Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

PG 489: SEC. 1308. COVERAGE OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPIST SERVICES AND MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR SERVICES The Government will cover Marriage and Family therapy. Which means they will insert Government into your marriage

Pg 494-498: SEC. 1308. COVERAGE OF MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPIST SERVICES AND MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELOR SERVICES Government will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, rationing those services.

The sole reason this thing is 1,070 pages long is so that people like you and I have difficulty finding out what is actually in it.

Rick

[untbowler]

Conservative Beaten at Town Hall Meeting

St. Louis Story

Change we can believe in I am sure. Now who are the mob and thugs??

Edited August 7, 2009 by untbowler

[yyz28]

Shhhhhhh. It's far more fun to use Republican scare tactics (hell, they worked for the 8 years prior) and hyperbole, or to compare the President who the people elected to a "rock star" or "christ figure", than to let the political process work on its own. If we don't put rumors of the boogey man out there for the people to digest then how can we expect them to make an informed decision?

Oh, Emmitt, come off it.

Rationing wasn't in the UK or Canadian legislation either. The bill is just a bill. It doesn't address its own consiquences.

Rationing happens when there is unlimited demand due to no cost to the end consumer and limited supply. This is a pretty basic concept. Government Run healthcare, EVERYWHERE it has been tried, has led to rationing. It will happen here too. There is no reason, no logic that you can present that will make it otherwise. Combine that with the fact that many doctors will retire rather than put up with this new system and you have a shrinkage in the supply.

Services will HAVE to be cut. We can't fund what we are doing now. The lofty language of "While the current proposals include savings in Medicare by cutting out fraud, abuse, waste, and inefficiency..." falls on deaf ears as we only quadruple or more the size of the system and bureaucracy. You can't increase the size of the program the way this bill does and have any chance of possibly cut our fraud, abuse, waste and MOST OF ALL inefficiency. You WORK for the Government - you can't sit there and tell my you believe any government agency you've worked with or near that grows both in size and scope by a factor of 4 overnight is efficient.

There is no direct euthanasia approved in the bill - that statement is true. ...but as rationing becomes a reality, choices are going to have to be made. If there isn't enough for everything that everyone wants, someone, somewhere, in a building who's never seen you and most likely the part of the country you live in, is going to make the decisions about what things your doctor says you need you get... and then, they set the schedule of when you're going to get it.

This bill is dangerous. ANYONE in their right mind should be pushing against it. I have no problem with REAL reform, and there are alternitives to this 1000 page single payer option bill that won't destory the system we have now. The system we have now isn't perfect, but it IS the best in the world. Let's work to fix it, and not copy what the UK and Canada have done, both of which are a miserable failure and have much higher dis-satiscation rates than ours does.

Giving the government control over your life and healthcare means you have lost your freedom.

[CMJ]

This bill is dangerous. ANYONE in their right mind should be pushing against it. I have no problem with REAL reform, and there are alternitives to this 1000 page single payer option bill that won't destory the system we have now. The system we have now isn't perfect, but it IS the best in the world. Let's work to fix it, and not copy what the UK and Canada have done, both of which are a miserable failure and have much higher dis-satiscation rates than ours does.

Most studies I have seen do not support that statement.

Furthermore, just about every friend/aquaintance overseas that I have(in countries ranging from Norway to Australia) strongly advocates a National Healthcare plan. Honestly, I'm a bit dubious about one here for now(let's try to get Medicare and Medcaid solvent first - I think projections have them broke inside of 20 years), but I do think we should have some sort of nationalized plan eventually. Hopefully within a generation.

Edited August 7, 2009 by CMJ

[hickoryhouse]

Most studies I have seen do not support that statement.

Furthermore, just about every friend/aquaintance overseas that I have(in countries ranging from Norway to Australia) strongly advocates a National Healthcare plan. Honestly, I'm a bit dubious about one here for now(let's try to get Medicare and Medcaid solvent first - I think projections have them broke inside of 20 years), but I do think we should have some sort of nationalized plan eventually. Hopefully with a generation.

I don't like the idea of a national government controlled health plan, but I definitely agree that we need to determine the real waste in the system and fix what we already have. Medicare and Caid are not functioning properly and are definately in need of a financial Renaissance to keep them solvent.

Why are we even debating on increasing the scope of two already failed programs when what we need to be doing is focusing on the evil that we already know?

[yyz28]

Most studies I have seen do not support that statement.

Furthermore, just about every friend/aquaintance overseas that I have(in countries ranging from Norway to Australia) strongly advocates a National Healthcare plan. Honestly, I'm a bit dubious about one here for now(let's try to get Medicare and Medcaid solvent first - I think projections have them broke inside of 20 years), but I do think we should have some sort of nationalized plan eventually. Hopefully with a generation.

Perhaps it is better to say that most folks in a socialized system are dis-satisfied with it and feel it needs fundamental overhaul just as may feel about our system. This is the article I am quoting for. I'm including the references

10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Brief Analysis | Health

No. 649

Tuesday, March 24, 2009

by Scott Atlas

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers and academics alike are beating the drum for a far larger government rôle in health care. Much of the public assumes their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. However, before turning to government as the solution, some unheralded facts about America's health care system should be considered.

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1]Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).

Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.

More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).

Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [see the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [see the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

Scott W. Atlas, M.D., is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor at the Stanford University Medical Center. A version of this article appeared previously in the February 18, 2009, Washington Times.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Concord Working Group, "Cancer survival in five continents: a worldwide population-based study,.S. abe at responsible for theountries, in s chnologies, " Lancet Oncology, Vol. 9, No. 8, August 2008, pages 730 - 756; Arduino Verdecchia et al., "Recent Cancer Survival in Europe: A 2000-02 Period Analysis of EUROCARE-4 Data," Lancet Oncology, Vol. 8, No. 9, September 2007, pages 784 - 796.

[2] U.S. Cancer Statistics, National Program of Cancer Registries, U.S. Centers for Disease Control; Canadian Cancer Society/National Cancer Institute of Canada; also see June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S.," National Bureau of Economic Research, Working Paper No. 13429, September 2007. Available at http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429.

[3] Oliver Schoffski (University of Erlangen-Nuremberg), "Diffusion of Medicines in Europe," European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations, 2002. Available at http://www.amchampc.org/showFile.asp?FID=126. See also Michael Tanner, "The Grass is Not Always Greener: A Look at National Health Care Systems around the World," Cato Institute, Policy Analysis No. 613, March 18, 2008. Available at http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272.

[4] June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[5] Ibid.

[6] Nadeem Esmail, Michael A. Walker with Margaret Bank, "Waiting Your Turn, (17th edition) Hospital Waiting Lists In Canada," Fraser Institute, Critical Issues Bulletin 2007, Studies in Health Care Policy, August 2008; Nadeem Esmail and Dominika Wrona "Medical Technology in Canada," Fraser Institute, August 21, 2008 ; Sharon Willcox et al., "Measuring and Reducing Waiting Times: A Cross-National Comparison Of Strategies," Health Affairs, Vol. 26, No. 4, July/August 2007, pages 1,078-87; June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."; M.V. Williams et al., "Radiotherapy Dose Fractionation, Access and Waiting Times in the Countries of the U.K.. in 2005," Royal College of Radiologists, Clinical Oncology, Vol. 19, No. 5, June 2007, pages 273-286.

[7] Nadeem Esmail and Michael A. Walker with Margaret Bank, "Waiting Your Turn 17th Edition: Hospital Waiting Lists In Canada 2007."

[8] "Hospital Waiting Times and List Statistics," Department of Health, England. Available at http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandsta...p;Rendition=Web.

[9] Cathy Schoen et al., "Toward Higher-Performance Health Systems: Adults' Health Care Experiences In Seven Countries, 2007," Health Affairs, Web Exclusive, Vol. 26, No. 6, October 31, 2007, pages w717-w734. Available at http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/26/6/w717.

[10] June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[11] Victor R. Fuchs and Harold C. Sox Jr., "Physicians' Views of the Relative Importance of 30 Medical Innovations," Health Affairs, Vol. 20, No. 5, September /October 2001, pages 30-42. Available at http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/20/5/30.pdf.

[12] OECD Health Data 2008, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Available at http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_...1_37407,00.html.

[13] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," Economic Report of the President (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 2004), 108th Congress, 2nd Session H. Doc. 108-145, February 2004, Chapter 10, pages 190-193, available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/pdf/2004_erp.pdf; Tyler Cowen, New York Times, Oct. 5, 2006; Tom Coburn, Joseph Antos and Grace-Marie Turner, "Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation," Heritage Foundation, Lecture No. 1030, April 2007; Thomas Boehm, "How can we explain the American dominance in biomedical research and development?" Journal of Medical Marketing, Vol. 5, No. 2, 2005, pages 158-66, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, July 2002. Available at http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/...55/8649_ERP.pdf .

[14] Nicholas D. Kristof, "Franklin Delano Obama," New York Times, February 28, 2009. Available at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/opinion/01Kristof.html.

[15] The Nobel Prize Internet Archive. Available at http://almaz.com/nobel/medicine/medicine.html.

[16] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," 2004 Economic Report of the President

So again, I call on everyone to slow down and not throw away this system. Let's back up, figure out what is broken and try to surgically fix it (no pun intended) than throw it away. Thoes of us who are against the President's plan aren't for the "Status Quo" to use the President's own term - we just have different ideas and don't want the system thrown in the trash. We want to keep our own choices and freedoms.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

US Deficit Climbs to 1.3 Trillion

So you're mad about Bush doubling the debt in 8 years, where's your outrage about Obama QUADRUPLING the deficit in just 7 months?

Quadrupling???? ---- That is not true... You are listening to Rush*** too much. Bush left us owing $10+ trillion. If it has increased by $1.3 trillion (which may actually be true) in an attempt to correct the situation Bush left us.. that is about a 13% increase... not 400%. You need to check facts... that is why the GOP hates the media and college profs. They check facts....and read accurate information and understand what they just read. ....

***he flunked EVERY college class he took... and then dropped out of Southwest Missouri State after attending for a FULL year....(what a genius).

Edited August 7, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNTflyer]

Quadrupling???? ---- That is not true... You are listening to Rush*** too much. Bush left us owing $10+ trillion. If it has increased by $1.3 trillion (which may actually be true) in an attempt to correct the situation Bush left us.. that is about a 13% increase... not 400%. You need to check facts... that is why the GOP hates the media and college profs. They check facts....and read accurate information and understand what they just read. ....

***he flunked EVERY college class he took... and then dropped out of Southwest Missouri State after attending for a FULL year....(what a genius).

Read what I said again... and think it over.

where's your outrage about Obama QUADRUPLING the deficit in just 7 months?

Deficit in 2008 was just over $400B.

The latest deficit number is $1.3 trillion. That's a little more than triple, but when the numbers are finally in you can bet it will be quadrupled.

Edited August 7, 2009 by UNTflyer

[KingDL1]

***he flunked EVERY college class he took... and then dropped out of Southwest Missouri State after attending for a FULL year....(what a genius).

You have proved the best point I have heard or read all year, it does not take a genius to see how screwed up the current administration is.

[yyz28]

Quadrupling???? ---- That is not true... You are listening to Rush*** too much. Bush left us owing $10+ trillion. If it has increased by $1.3 trillion (which may actually be true) in an attempt to correct the situation Bush left us.. that is about a 13% increase... not 400%. You need to check facts... that is why the GOP hates the media and college profs. They check facts....and read accurate information and understand what they just read. ....

***he flunked EVERY college class he took... and then dropped out of Southwest Missouri State after attending for a FULL year....(what a genius).

If we're going to attack someone for their brain power, perhaps we should understand the difference between the debt and a deficit.

Nice form, but a little rough on the landing... you may have to settle for the bronze.

Edited August 7, 2009 by yyz28

[UNTflyer]

Back to my original question... Where is your outrage over Obama tripling-almost-quadrupling the deficit in 7 short months?

Let me guess... the Bush deficits were so bad that they caused the recession, so now we have to go even deeper in debt to fix it, right???

[CMJ]

Back to my original question... Where is your outrage over Obama tripling-almost-quadrupling the deficit in 7 short months?

Let me guess... the Bush deficits were so bad that they caused the recession, so now we have to go even deeper in debt to fix it, right???

Hey, worked for Reagan!

[emmitt01]

Hey, worked for Reagan!

Please, let's leave the Republican Jesus (or should I say "rock star") out of this.