Vito Gets Props For

[GreenBat]

Vito gets props.

[BIG DAWG]

I am glad Vito gets props somewhere...he deserves a lot more!

[H-towngreen]

I am glad Vito gets props somewhere...he deserves a lot more!

For all the crap Vito gets around here, I think the he really does do a great job covering NT athletics.

One more note on Vito, keep him and his family in your thoughts as his dad is still in coma.

[NT80]

Pretty funny to watch Troy fans defend their puppy mill. I don't blame Blakeney for trying anything to lure marginal recruits to Troy JC because parents will do just about anything to say "Junior" got an offer to go somewhere, even if they know he didn't earn it.

[MeanMag]

Those chaps at the Troy board are getting really defensive over a beat writer giving UNT fans a reason why Troy has become so good. I didn't read Vito having an opinion one way or another on the issue, and also haven't seen any mean green fans getting mad over it. Sounds like they are scared of that practice getting outlawed.

[rcade]

For all the crap Vito gets around here, I think the he really does do a great job covering NT athletics.

Amen, brother. I enjoy reading his coverage in the DRC.

[AnotherEagleFan]

Even the article says that it is a common happening. I am a little surprised that this seems to be a big deal to you. Most Schools "place" athletes at JC or prep schools to get them qualified or in better shape to compete. These schools have good programs and the coaches keep them on track and interested in the School that "placed" them.

[H-towngreen]

Even the article says that it is a common happening. I am a little surprised that this seems to be a big deal to you. Most Schools "place" athletes at JC or prep schools to get them qualified or in better shape to compete. These schools have good programs and the coaches keep them on track and interested in the School that "placed" them.

Oversigning is not a common happening. Tell me how many of the 120 schools oversigned? 10? maybe 20? It is a big deal that is why the SEC just banned it. And it's not as if these schools are signing kids thinking that they will all qualify, they are betting if not hoping that they don't all qualify. Cause if they all did they would have a huge problem on their hands. Most schools "place" one or two recruits in Juco. But those 1 or 2 are kids that they fully expected to meet NCAA requirments. Most schools, as you say, are not placing 15 kids a year in JUCO's.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Again, we should be oversigning for the same reasons Troy and others do so. As Lone Watie believed, you should always be looking to gain an edge over your opponent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPFP_XazE5U

[Green P1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPFP_XazE5U

Did we just become best friends?

[AnotherEagleFan]

Oversigning is not a common happening. Tell me how many of the 120 schools oversigned? 10? maybe 20? It is a big deal that is why the SEC just banned it. And it's not as if these schools are signing kids thinking that they will all qualify, they are betting if not hoping that they don't all qualify. Cause if they all did they would have a huge problem on their hands. Most schools "place" one or two recruits in Juco. But those 1 or 2 are kids that they fully expected to meet NCAA requirments. Most schools, as you say, are not placing 15 kids a year in JUCO's.

Not trying to start a fight here but this is a reality of college football. If Todd Dodge had the opportunity to recruit a 4 or 5 star athlete but had to "place" that athlete he would do it in a heart beat. And He would not hesitate to oversign if he needed to so that he could rasie his recruiting class.

There are basically 3 types of schools. Those who really do not need to oversign because they get tons of talent but are willing to take on a "project" (these are your top money schools). Then you have those who need to take more risks and can get more "projects" (these are your lower AQ BCS and Top Non AQ schools). Then you have those who flat out cant get "projects" (these are your lower tier schools who have a difficult time recruiting and some tier 1 academic schools who will not lower their standards).

My educated guess is that over half of the schools practice some form ov oversigning. I did not say 15 kids a year. But I find it interesting that you say only 10 or 20 schools oversign but must schools "place one or two recruits in Juco. So which is it? Dont answer just think about it. Because the answer is most.

Here are a few schools that I have seen "place" athletes (this is just off the top of my head):

North Carolina

Florida State

Almost all of the SEC schools. And believe me the coachs will find a way to continue to "place athletes" There will just be more Risk on the Schools part.

So Miss - Mostly in Baseball but every once in a while football.

with a little effort you can come up with more then 20.

[Mean Green 93-98]

Almost all of the SEC schools. And believe me the coachs will find a way to continue to "place athletes" There will just be more Risk on the Schools part.

So even though the SEC banned oversigning, you think the schools will continue to flout the rule? The only SEC teams that clearly oversigned last year--when it was allowed--were Arkansas and Ole Miss. Why are "almost all of the SEC schools" going to take up the practice now that it is banned?

I think you way overstate your case. According to the SI article, "Thirty Football Bowl Subdivision schools signed more than 25 this year, but only nine would have run afoul of the rule as proposed by the SEC." Oversigning is not "the reality of college football," but the practice of a few select institutions.

[NorthTexan95]

Wow! An entire article and not one mention that UNT went 1-11 last year!

[AnotherEagleFan]

Lets talk about what the article says... "For all intents and purposes, oversigning in big-time college football is over. On Friday, the SEC, home to seven schools that signed more than 25 players this past February, passed a rule limiting its member schools to a maximum of 28 signees a year."

28 -25 = 3 players that can legally be oversigned. And that is if the school has 25 scholarships to give. Now 4 years + 25 ships per year = 100 ships total. oops we can only have 85 total. Using simple logic you cannot sign 25 per year every year. In 2008 33 teams all signed over the 25 limit. 2009 was just as bad.

2008: Alabama, Miami, Florida State, LSU, Clemson, Minnesota, V Tech, Auburn, Arizona state, Illinois, Washington, Oklahoma st, K State, Ole Miss, Nebraska, NC State, Boston College, Southern Miss, West Virginia, MS State, Syracuse, Purdue, Troy, Tulsa, Temple, North Texas, Washington State, Colorado State, SMU, UTEP, Air Force, Ark ST and Army All signed over the 25 limit.

Oh sure there is some turnover in athletes but there are many signing classes where there are less then 25 ships available. According to Rivals, in 2008 USC signed 19 players and Ohio State signed 20 and Penn state signed 14. Clearly these schools could have maxed out if they had the space. Let us take LSU as an example In 2008 they signed 26 athletes so we have proof that they oversign. They may have only had 20 ships to give. In 2009 they show only 24 signed. Again, they can sign as many as they want but they only signed 24. They probably had less then that to give. We don't know but what we do know is that they willingly oversigned in 2008 along with at least 32 other teams.

The SEC will limit the number of signings to 3 over the number of athletes that can show up in the fall if they have the maximum number of ships to give. If they only have 10 to give then they can legally sign 18 players over the limit and you would never know unless you kept track of how many scholarship athletes they have leaving each year.

[FirefightnRick]

Troy already has pretty lax entrance standards for athletes, some would put it even harsher than that,

....but Stebo knew?

Rick

[nautique]

Amen, brother. I enjoy reading his coverage in the DRC.

Vito deserves his props.

[GrandGreen]

Lets talk about what the article says... "For all intents and purposes, oversigning in big-time college football is over. On Friday, the SEC, home to seven schools that signed more than 25 players this past February, passed a rule limiting its member schools to a maximum of 28 signees a year."

28 -25 = 3 players that can legally be oversigned. And that is if the school has 25 scholarships to give. Now 4 years + 25 ships per year = 100 ships total. oops we can only have 85 total. Using simple logic you cannot sign 25 per year every year. In 2008 33 teams all signed over the 25 limit. 2009 was just as bad.

2008: Alabama, Miami, Florida State, LSU, Clemson, Minnesota, V Tech, Auburn, Arizona state, Illinois, Washington, Oklahoma st, K State, Ole Miss, Nebraska, NC State, Boston College, Southern Miss, West Virginia, MS State, Syracuse, Purdue, Troy, Tulsa, Temple, North Texas, Washington State, Colorado State, SMU, UTEP, Air Force, Ark ST and Army All signed over the 25 limit.

Oh sure there is some turnover in athletes but there are many signing classes where there are less then 25 ships available. According to Rivals, in 2008 USC signed 19 players and Ohio State signed 20 and Penn state signed 14. Clearly these schools could have maxed out if they had the space. Let us take LSU as an example In 2008 they signed 26 athletes so we have proof that they oversign. They may have only had 20 ships to give. In 2009 they show only 24 signed. Again, they can sign as many as they want but they only signed 24. They probably had less then that to give. We don't know but what we do know is that they willingly oversigned in 2008 along with at least 32 other teams.

The SEC will limit the number of signings to 3 over the number of athletes that can show up in the fall if they have the maximum number of ships to give. If they only have 10 to give then they can legally sign 18 players over the limit and you would never know unless you kept track of how many scholarship athletes they have leaving each year.

I fail to see all of your logic. The fact is that players leave every program for a variety of reasons; academics, not enough playing time, ships not renewed, etc. Therefore there are more than the approximately 20 ships a year that would be available with a max limit of 85 and an average number of redshirts that would occur if no one left the program. As you have stated, schools can be guilty of over signing that have smaller classes than 25 when there are less ships available than players inked. Conversely, many of the schools you listed did not over sign because of transfers mostly jucos who officially signed in an earlier period but are including in the current class.

The 85 maximum squad size limitation is hard to monitor during recruiting periods because no one even the coaches know exactly what current players are going to return. Staffs do know the size of their current squad and have a good idea of the number of players that will not return the next year for whatever reason. Therefore, most schools recruit above the 85 max because they know there will be more ships available before the new recruits report. Likewise some teams take more players than the 25 allowed in one class because they assume some will not qualify.

You are correct, most universities over sign based on their projections of the number of qualifying recruits and the number of current players returning. However, the norm is to do this for a few players and not every year. Teams like Troy who have made this the basis of their recruiting strategy, I think are abusing the system. Troy has averaged 32 signings a season over the last four years, which can be interpreted as at least a third of their classes never pass the NCAA minimal academic requirements. Obviously, they can't identify that third or they would not have offered them in the first place. Therefore there are likely many more than that third that were recruited despite being marginal academic performers.

These recruiting practices have worked out very well for Troy on the field, but have drawn a lot of criticism. The question I have is given the number of academic borderline players that end up at Troy is how do they keep them academically qualified. NT, for example does not seem to have the same success with keeping athletes with borderline academic skills in school.

Edited June 27, 2009 by GrandGreen

[AnotherEagleFan]

I fail to see all of your logic. The fact is that players leave every program for a variety of reasons; academics, not enough playing time, ships not renewed, etc. Therefore there are more than the approximately 20 ships a year that would be available with a max limit of 85 and an average number of redshirts that would occur if no one left the program. As you have stated, schools can be guilty of over signing that have smaller classes than 25 when there are less ships available than players inked. Conversely, many of the schools you listed did not over sign because of transfers mostly jucos who officially signed in an earlier period but are including in the current class.

The 85 maximum squad size limitation is hard to monitor during recruiting periods because no one even the coaches know exactly what current players are going to return. Staffs do know the size of their current squad and have a good idea of the number of players that will not return the next year for whatever reason. Therefore, most schools recruit above the 85 max because they know there will be more ships available before the new recruits report. Likewise some teams take more players than the 25 allowed in one class because they assume some will not qualify.

You are correct, most universities over sign based on their projections of the number of qualifying recruits and the number of current players returning. However, the norm is to do this for a few players and not every year. Teams like Troy who have made this the basis of their recruiting strategy, I think are abusing the system. Troy has averaged 32 signings a season over the last four years, which can be interpreted as at least a third of their classes never pass the NCAA minimal academic requirements. Obviously, they can't identify that third or they would not have offered them in the first place. Therefore there are likely many more than that third that were recruited despite being marginal academic performers.

These recruiting practices have worked out very well for Troy on the field, but have drawn a lot of criticism. The question I have is given the number of academic borderline players that end up at Troy is how do they keep them academically qualified. NT, for example does not seem to have the same success with keeping athletes with borderline academic skills in school.

I don't really follow your post. You start off telling me that you cant follow my logic but then you end up stating that I am "correct and most universities over sign based on......" The only point that I am trying to make is that most schools oversign. The new SEC rule even continues to allow the practice. If you want to have heart burn over an issue look at graduation rates. But UNT fans do not want to open that can of worms.

[Keith7]

Did he really break the story though if Troy has been doing it for years and everybody already knew about it? Its not like Vito invented oversigning. This guy just learned about Troy doing it through Vito's blog.

[GrandGreen]

I don't really follow your post. You start off telling me that you cant follow my logic but then you end up stating that I am "correct and most universities over sign based on......" The only point that I am trying to make is that most schools oversign. The new SEC rule even continues to allow the practice. If you want to have heart burn over an issue look at graduation rates. But UNT fans do not want to open that can of worms.

The logic I don't understand is in this quote: "Using simple logic you cannot sign 25 per year every year. In 2008 33 teams all signed over the 25 limit. 2009 was just as bad'." Sure you can sign 25 a year because players leave programs. You can sign a maximum of 25 in any year as long as it does not cause the total number of scholarships to go over the squad limit of 85.

I guess I did not express myself well, so I will try again. Most teams over sign a few players based on their projections of having scholarships opening up. I don't think many have a problem with that, however many do have a problem with teams that sign a large number of players with borderline academic skills hoping that a percentage of those athletes will ultimately qualify. The NCAA clearing house requirements for college admissions are ridiculously low, having a third to half of a recruiting class having problems with those standards IMO indicates issues with either a college's academics and/or priorities. Sure there are athletes that have low test scores and go on to graduate and be successes, but the odds of this occurring are not encouraging. The most likely result, is that these students fail or are placed into degree plans to keep them qualified that fail to provide them with any significant college level marketable skills.

I don't have to have heartburn to disagree with a point of view. I am not sure what NT's graduation rates have to do with the issues being discussed; but if you want to elaborate on the topic, go ahead.

Edited June 28, 2009 by GrandGreen