Enjoy Your Suvs And Pickups While You Can

[SilverEagle]

Here's the latest on GM:

NEW YORK, May 19 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp's (GM.N) plan for a bankruptcy filing involves a quick sale of the company's healthy assets to a new company initially owned by the U.S. government.

The government's plans include giving stakes in the new company to GM's union and bondholders, although the ownership structure of the company is still being negotiated, said the source who is familiar with the company's plans.

In addition, the government would extend a credit line to the new company and forgive the bulk of the $15.4 billion in emergency loans that the U.S. has already provided to GM, the source said.

=====================================

Congratulations, Obama supporters. Your hero is about to nationalize one of the biggest U.S. companies. GM will never recover from this, they'll produce Moskvitch-like vehicles that will get 50 MPG but will crumple like a used tissue if you hit a runaway shopping cart.

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. Did the election of President Obama somehow cause GM to go bankrupt? Do the Republicans have a better plan? If so, they need to pull out the proposal and get started with the negotiations.

[greenminer]

=====================================

Congratulations, Obama supporters. Your hero is about to nationalize one of the biggest U.S. companies. GM will never recover from this, they'll produce Moskvitch-like vehicles that will get 50 MPG but will crumple like a used tissue if you hit a runaway shopping cart.

Conversely, I like to think McCain's election would have meant GM producing cars that only get 4 mpg, but could barrel through a parking lot full of 400 shopping carts without so much a scratch.

Edited May 19, 2009 by greenminer

[untbowler]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. Did the election of President Obama somehow cause GM to go bankrupt? Do the Republicans have a better plan? If so, they need to pull out the proposal and get started with the negotiations.

Thats the problem they Gov't needs to stop funneling money to GM and the Unions and let GM go bankrupt, then pick-up shop and move to the south and be able to compete with Nissan and Honda in states where taxes are lower and unions do not force up wages to a ridiculous level.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---You do realize that GM does make things other than cars and trucks including home appliances.. The big problem is that they manufacture a lot of materials for the military. It was American heavy industry that allowed the USA, Britain and other allies to keep Germany from winning WWII. We can not allow this entire sector to fail or we would be exactly like Iraq was after the Gulf War... They had no way to replace the tanks, artillery etc. that they lost in the Gulf War. The Bush Jr. Iraq invasion faced a rather fangless military thus we had almost no invasion casualties. We need heavy industry for defense purposes.

---And yes the GM/Chrysler/Ford problem existed months before Obama was even elected or took office. Some here think it just appeared since then, it didn't, the problem appeared during the last administration and whoever was been elected was going to have to deal it. Obama is just trying to make the best of a bad situation as would have McCain or whoever. He may do ok or he may do terrible but you better hope he succeeds because this is your country. Our "conservative" Pres that overran his budget (doubled the national debt) by more than the previous 42 presidents COMBINED gets a lot of credit plus the lack of financial controls after they were removed has messed that up as well. Face reality, he was a failure as no other President has been.

---We do not want to placed into a situation that we need to depend on Honda or Mercedes-Benz to provide us basic military weapons which includes trucks..

Edited May 19, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Censored by Laurie]

Congratulations, Obama supporters. Your hero is about to nationalize one of the biggest U.S. companies. GM will never recover from this, they'll produce Moskvitch-like vehicles that will get 50 MPG but will crumple like a used tissue if you hit a runaway shopping cart.

Doesn't the government also set forth crash test standards?

[UNTflyer]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. Did the election of President Obama somehow cause GM to go bankrupt? Do the Republicans have a better plan? If so, they need to pull out the proposal and get started with the negotiations.

The better plan would have been to let GM go bankrupt, not force a buyout and handout to the workers. Did I wake up in Venezuela this morning???

[UNTflyer]

---You do realize that GM does make things other than cars and trucks including home appliances.. The big problem is that they manufacture a lot of materials for the military.

Are you sure you're not thinking of GE?

[CaribbeanGreen]

There have been two alcohol related elections in Frisco this decade. One was to allow the sale of beer and wine for off premise consumption, the other to allow on premise sites to remain open until 2AM. You have no idea how bitter it got around here. The public smear campaigns against those in support of the measures was something out of a Kafka novel. You personally may not want to ban the vices, but as a group, whoa howdy!

So it really comes down to liberals wanting to control your environment and body and conservatives wanting to control your mind and morals. Neither is the job of the government IMO.

You ain't kiddin'... that was flat out nasty... then again, so was the last mayoral election, so maybe it's just Frisco..... speaking of, did you see that Denton county passed an alcohol sales ordinance this last week? So, per COUNTY law, far west Frisco (ya know, the fancy part) can now sell booze... but per CITY law, no dice... it's causing a real feces-storm at city hall sorting this bad boy out.... I live on the east (Collin) side, so what do I care. I'll just keep driving to The Colony or Little Elm anyway.

Edited May 20, 2009 by CaribbeanGreen

[oldguystudent]

Doesn't the government also set forth crash test standards?

That was all Ralph Nader's doing back in the 60s. I believe it was the Chevrolet Corvair that put him on a pro-consumer rampage. The free market was pretty pissed off at him for that. There was a book written on it called Citizen Nader.

[UNTFan23]

---And yes the GM/Chrysler/Ford problem existed months before Obama was even elected or took office. Some here think it just appeared since then, it didn't, the problem appeared during the last administration and whoever was been elected was going to have to deal it. Obama is just trying to make the best of a bad situation as would have McCain or whoever. He may do ok or he may do terrible but you better hope he succeeds because this is your country. Our "conservative" Pres that overran his budget (doubled the national debt) by more than the previous 42 presidents COMBINED gets a lot of credit plus the lack of financial controls after they were removed has messed that up as well. Face reality, he was a failure as no other President has been.

I blame Bush for Circuit City, Linens ‘n Things, and Sharper Image for going out of business due to the lack of proper management.

[SilverEagle]

That was all Ralph Nader's doing back in the 60s. I believe it was the Chevrolet Corvair that put him on a pro-consumer rampage. The free market was pretty pissed off at him for that. There was a book written on it called Citizen Nader.

I never understood why GM discontinued the Corvair. They could have corrected the safety issues. Of course, they discontinued the Corvair during the rise of the muscle car, so sales were probably the real reason for discontinueing it. Of course, a few years later when they had to quickly develop an economy car after the first oil embargo, they came up with a POS called the VEGA. They hung on to that crappy system (aluminum block 4 banger) for years. It would have been better if they had just dusted off the Corvair, made it safer, and given it some jazzy sheet metal upgrades and they would have had a winner.....again.

[eulessismore]

I blame Bush for Circuit City, Linens ‘n Things, and Sharper Image for going out of business due to the lack of proper management.

Well, after laying into the credit oligopolists in another thread, I have to hand it to consumers for utter stupidity during the Circuit City liquidation. NPR was doing a feature about that on their "This American Life" program. One thing the workers said they got sick of hearing was "this is cheaper at such and such a store, with the workers wanting to say, "well, go there and buy it, then". It turns out that the the first thing the contractor in charge of the liquidation (seems this is the way such things are done nowadays, outsourcing the liquidation) did was to mark things up. Something like a third of the inventory was sold at prices higher than before the liquidation was announced.

[oldguystudent]

I never understood why GM discontinued the Corvair. They could have corrected the safety issues. Of course, they discontinued the Corvair during the rise of the muscle car, so sales were probably the real reason for discontinueing it. Of course, a few years later when they had to quickly develop an economy car after the first oil embargo, they came up with a POS called the VEGA. They hung on to that crappy system (aluminum block 4 banger) for years. It would have been better if they had just dusted off the Corvair, made it safer, and given it some jazzy sheet metal upgrades and they would have had a winner.....again.

I think it was along the same lines as the safety issues with the Explorer back in the 90s. The very things that made the corvair unsafe were what made it a popular car. You take away the steering shaft and spike-like instrument panel knobs that were impaling drivers, and you've given up almost all of the style. What's left besides a reasonably priced and reliable vehicle? That's not gonna' sell! Remember too that this is where the push for seat belts came from. But since manufacturing legislation was still a decade off, they weren't gonna' hurt their image putting those things in a car!

As to why they brought about the Vega? Man, I don't know except to say that pretty much all cars from the 1974 era just absolutely sucked. They didn't yet know how to deal with the catalytic converter and it showed.

[eulessismore]

I never understood why GM discontinued the Corvair. They could have corrected the safety issues. Of course, they discontinued the Corvair during the rise of the muscle car, so sales were probably the real reason for discontinueing it. Of course, a few years later when they had to quickly develop an economy car after the first oil embargo, they came up with a POS called the VEGA. They hung on to that crappy system (aluminum block 4 banger) for years. It would have been better if they had just dusted off the Corvair, made it safer, and given it some jazzy sheet metal upgrades and they would have had a winner.....again.

After spinning out of control on a dry road at low speed while braking, and running over one of those "built to collapse" roadsigns, I can say that the only thing that could have made the corvair safe would be a collapsible world.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Are you sure you're not thinking of GE?

---GE also does military contracts ... but not any trucks, other vehicles, or tanks... GE doesn't make them but they may make some parts used in them... The automobile companies manufacturer them. Did you ever wonder why no cars were made during the early 1940's.... Auto companies made materials for the military.

Edited May 20, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNTFan23]

GE does military contracts too... but not any trucks, other vehicles or tanks... GE doesn't make them... The automobile companies do. Did you ever wonder why no cars were made during the early 1940's.... They made materials for the military.

Really? A quick Google search took me to the Army page with some tanks and their manufacturers:

• General Dynamics Land Systems - Stryker

• Stewart & Stevenson Services, Inc. - Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles (FMTV)

• Oshkosh Truck* - Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck (HEMTT)

• AM General (South Bend, IN)

  O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt (Fairfield, OH) - HMMWV

• Tractor (Oshkosh Truck - Oshkosh, WI)

  Semitrailer (Systems & Electronics, Inc - St Louis, MO)** - M1070 Heavy Equipment Transporter (HET)

• Truck and CHU (Oshkosh Truck – Oshkosh, WI)

  Trailer and Flatrack (Oshkosh Truck – Bradenton, FL)

  CROP (Summa Technologies – Huntsville, Al; Hyundai Precision America – San Diego, CA) - Palletized Load System (PLS)

* Also manufactures Waste Management trash disposal trucks

** Purchased by an Italian company in October 2008 - I blame Bush for this.

Some how, if GM goes under, I think we'll be ok.

Edited May 20, 2009 by UNTFan23

[SilverEagle]

I think it was along the same lines as the safety issues with the Explorer back in the 90s. The very things that made the corvair unsafe were what made it a popular car. You take away the steering shaft and spike-like instrument panel knobs that were impaling drivers, and you've given up almost all of the style. What's left besides a reasonably priced and reliable vehicle? That's not gonna' sell! Remember too that this is where the push for seat belts came from. But since manufacturing legislation was still a decade off, they weren't gonna' hurt their image putting those things in a car!

As to why they brought about the Vega? Man, I don't know except to say that pretty much all cars from the 1974 era just absolutely sucked. They didn't yet know how to deal with the catalytic converter and it showed.

The VEGA had a faulty water pump design. That caused the engine to overheat, and as a result, the head gasket blew, and more often than not, the head warped. I used to own one, so I know about these things. The Wikipedia entry about the Corvair is very interesting. Man, that was a versatile car design! That 69 Corvair Monza design still looks sharp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvair

Here is an interesting excerpt from the article.

"In what may be the automotive industry’s greatest irony, NHTSA, the federal agency created from Nader’s consumer advocacy, investigated the Corvair and issued a report in 1971 clearing the car’s design, two years after the car went out of production.

Part of Nader’s evidence against the Corvair was a promotional film created by Ford Motor Company, in which a Ford test driver purposely turned the Corvair in a way to make it spin around. Such films were not uncommon. GM also had films showing the Ford Econoline pickups standing on their noses under heavy braking."

Edited May 20, 2009 by SilverEagle

[Rudy]

Im all for vehicles getting better fuel economy, but its oppressive that they think they can tell you what you can and cant drive. SUV's are verstile vehicles. Until recently, I had a 1996 Ford Explorer which actually got 330 miles between fuel ups. The best thing about it was that I could fold the seats down and have all of the hauling space you need. I cant even count the number of times I used it to move.

The biggest problem with hybrids is the dangerous levels of smug that communities suffer when large amounts of the population drive them. Just ask South Park, CO

Edited May 20, 2009 by Rudy

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

--- I once witnessed a Corvair with a light pole (still standing) in the back seat. A female TCU student had some how hit the pole head on in front on the old KTVT station near the Camp Bowie exit and it went through the front bumper and into the car's interior and stopped at the rear engine. Needless to say she did not survive. I was on way my back to UNT and had to drive by it. At that point I knew I would never buy a car with the engine in the rear. She might not have survived in any other car either, don't know, but sure would not have looked like that.

[FirefightnRick]

Doesn't the government also set forth crash test standards?

I'd say it's a combination effort between the DOT, NHTSA and indirectly the big 3 automakers. Throw those three entities together and you can just feel the red tape that must exist with each and every safety standard currently on the books. The next newest safety standards coming down the pipe however, as always, will come from private industry in the form of GPS location systems and early driver warning and breaking systems.

Rick

[Censored by Laurie]

I'd say it's a combination effort between the DOT, NHTSA and indirectly the big 3 automakers. Throw those three entities together and you can just feel the red tape that must exist with each and every safety standard currently on the books. The next newest safety standards coming down the pipe however, as always, will come from private industry in the form of GPS location systems and early driver warning and breaking systems.

Rick

Understood...and I actually agree with you (/curls in fetal positition in a steaming hot shower).

My point was to Flyer's post that you have to have one or the other: a safe car or an eco-friendly car...just like most issues that we seem to debate, the middle-ground is non-existant. If the government mandates higher fuel efficiency standards it isn't going to ease up on its crash test and safety standards.

[oldguystudent]

Is anyone here old enough to remember when they forced catalytic converters and/or phased out leaded gasoline? Was there an uproar? Are there people out there who still think leaded gas is a good idea? I've never really thought about it before, but I'm old enough to remember leaded gas, but too young to have noticed if there was any reaction to it being phased out.

[SilverEagle]

I certainly remember. The uproar was mainly that unleaded gas was more expensive than leaded, AND catalytic converters raised the price of automobiles. The other uproar was how the catalytic converters adversely affected the performance of the cars. Back then, everyone still wanted to...

"Drive like Lightning, Crash like Thunder".... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWjwiScBoMc

And for that matter, lots of people still do.

Edited May 23, 2009 by SilverEagle