Mesquite To Give Students Time Off...

UNTflyer · May 12, 2009

Some Mesquite high school students could skip the last week of school next year while others get intensive academic help under a program that could be approved tonight.

Students who pass the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills and their classes would attend class for fewer days, essentially earning extra days of summer vacation.

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...n1.4c7fd7f.html

UNTFan23 · May 12, 2009

Some Mesquite high school students could skip the last week of school next year while others get intensive academic help under a program that could be approved tonight.
Students who pass the Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills and their classes would attend class for fewer days, essentially earning extra days of summer vacation.
http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...n1.4c7fd7f.html

A benefit to passing the TAAS test in 10th grade was you got 3 free mornings to go out for breakfast with all your smart friends.

Regardless, I hated having teachers teach to the test. I feel I got robbed of important skills that would have been helpful for college. <_<

UNTflyer · May 12, 2009

Regardless, I hated having teachers teach to the test. I feel I got robbed of important skills that would have been helpful for college.

I always hear about teachers moaning about how they have to teach the test, but... Isn't it a basic skills test?? If they just did their job, shouldn't a student be able to pass?

oldguystudent · May 12, 2009

I always hear about teachers moaning about how they have to teach the test, but... Isn't it a basic skills test?? If they just did their job, shouldn't a student be able to pass?

If special ed and non-English speaking students were still exempted from the test, sure. The current setup more or less forces schools to accommodate the lowest common denominator. When you and I were in school, they had the college tract kids (us), the non-college tract kids (Here kid, this is an oil filter. Here's how you change it and get money), the sped kids (any comment will probably get me in trouble), and the "bilingual kids" (vamos a estudiar todos en espanol y despues se van.) Every student had his/her place and was taught accordingly. Between the misguided notion that all kids must go to college and no child should be left behind, the test has become the end all be all. I've spent many years doing workshops for teachers on what's called differentiated instruction. Translated into layman's terms, it's how you teach something like science in a class with two literate kids, 4 sped kids, and 27 Spanish speaking immigrants and 4 Somalis who don't yet know that you poop IN the toilet, not ON it all in the same classroom.

It all boils down to demographics. Why do you think people clamor to live in places like Plano and Frisco? According to the 2008 MDR, Frisco has a 95% college attendance rate out of high school. I don't think the teachers here are necessarily any better than teachers in Dallas (although a LOT less nepotism exists up here), but they sure as hell have a lot better material to work with in terms of student body.

Unfortunately, it is a vicious cycle, and the impossibility presented before the teachers does create a lot of teachers who just don't give a damn and coast through their careers. Pull any random teacher out of Dallas ISD and ask them exactly how many years until they get retirement benefits. They'll know to the day.

ETA -- For the record, this most certainly isn't exclusive to Texas. After four years of working with Los Angeles Unified, that is the absolute LAST place I would ever send my kid.

Edited May 12, 2009 by oldguystudent

KingDL1 · May 12, 2009

If special ed and non-English speaking students were still exempted from the test, sure. The current setup more or less forces schools to accommodate the lowest common denominator. When you and I were in school, they had the college tract kids (us), the non-college tract kids (Here kid, this is an oil filter. Here's how you change it and get money), the sped kids (any comment will probably get me in trouble), and the "bilingual kids" (vamos a estudiar todos en espanol y despues se van.) Every student had his/her place and was taught accordingly. Between the misguided notion that all kids must go to college and no child should be left behind, the test has become the end all be all. I've spent many years doing workshops for teachers on what's called differentiated instruction. Translated into layman's terms, it's how you teach something like science in a class with two literate kids, 4 sped kids, and 27 Spanish speaking immigrants and 4 Somalis who don't yet know that you poop IN the toilet, not ON it all in the same classroom.
It all boils down to demographics. Why do you think people clamor to live in places like Plano and Frisco? According to the 2008 MDR, Frisco has a 95% college attendance rate out of high school. I don't think the teachers here are necessarily any better than teachers in Dallas (although a LOT less nepotism exists up here), but they sure as hell have a lot better material to work with in terms of student body.
Unfortunately, it is a vicious cycle, and the impossibility presented before the teachers does create a lot of teachers who just don't give a damn and coast through their careers. Pull any random teacher out of Dallas ISD and ask them exactly how many years until they get retirement benefits. They'll know to the day.
ETA -- For the record, this most certainly isn't exclusive to Texas. After four years of working with Los Angeles Unified, that is the absolute LAST place I would ever send my kid.

If immigration was enforced would it help end the cycle?

Censored by Laurie · May 12, 2009

If eugenics was enforced would it help end the cycle?

Odd question...

UNTflyer · May 12, 2009

Well, I'm a fiscal conservative but I believe in spending money on education. We should spend twice as much on education as we do on the military. Schools should be cathedrals... teachers should earn 6-figure salaries... dropping out of high school should be illegal... and at least two years of college should be compulsory.

Edited May 12, 2009 by UNTflyer

NT03 · May 12, 2009

If eugenics was enforced would it help end the cycle?

Odd question...

What should we do with them ?

Censored by Laurie · May 12, 2009

What should we do with them ?

That discussion probably doesn't belong in this thread. Perhaps a new thread is in order?

KingDL1 · May 12, 2009

Odd question...

I do not appreciate you twisting my question.

My original question is a legit question.

eulesseagle · May 12, 2009

oldguystudent is correct in analyzing schools are a failure that have degenerated steadily over the last 30 + years. School administrations could care less if they had to either retain your lazy butt, again in the same grade, or drop you a grade thirty plus years ago. If you really showed no progress then maybe the administration would make you take a course with the "special class" with the "special kids" as they were once called.

There was no discrimination in all this because all the "Fred Moore" schools did the same with their students. BTW, for those too young to remember most of the black segregated high schools in Texas were called Fred Moore High School. There was a guy who attended FMHS who lived across the street from me at Perrin A.F.B. that would tell me all about it when we would shoot hoops at the base gym. As far as discipline the Catholic school was the toughest then FMHS followed by us segregated whites.

My point is that several occurances have happened over the last 30+ years that you all know about but because of your political correctness training are too afraid to make mention.

1. Once the state and local school boards/administrations started taking "federal money," in the 60's, the quality of education began to decline.

2. School administrations do not use the "board of education" anymore to prove to the students who ran the class. If you were lucky you got whoooooped by your folks when you got home.

3. School administrators are 'NOW" afraid that students, parents or some liberal leaning advocacy group will sue them.

(The "tail" does not wag the dog anymore......now the "dog" wags the tail)

4. Girls getting pregant......out of school until you had the baby. Today, a badge of honor plus eligible for welfare.

5. Kids are no longer held back in school because they are, in the venacular, stupid. These kids just got to join the workforce sooner than everyone else. Now they are passed along. Now some states do not give failing grades because it may hurt the kid's self esteem.

6. Today, some underachievers, some lazy ones, are on various psycho drugs that give me the impression that they are doing the thorazine shuffle. Before govt money was accepted I didn't know anyone on these psycho drugs. The psycologists who produce the DSM's must take some of the blame too. I think that everyone has some sort of behavioral diagnosis in this handy reference.

7. Teachers "having" to teach someone to pass a test that they have been, essentially, preparing for all year??? who are you hurting?? Pays to open the book and learn your lesson so you can have three free days off.

8. Look at the schools in the upper midwest and northeast where kids are dropping out at a rate close to 50-60% (google it).

This problem is not with the teachers or administrators as it is with the guidelines of the federal government being forced upon school districts. Throwing more money at the "phanthom" problem is not the correct answer. The answer lies in letting the teachers teach and those who fail....fail. Accountability at a young age can be the best learning experience for the future. "Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child." Ya'll know what I am talking about because we all know some kid who demonstrates accountability and those kids who just want a feel good response because of political correctness training.

this is enough ammo for some of you.

Edited May 12, 2009 by eulesseagle

oldguystudent · May 12, 2009

7. Teachers "having" to teach someone to pass a test that they have been, essentially, preparing for all year??? who are you hurting?? Pays to open the book and learn your lesson so you can have three free days off.

Gotta' pick this one apart a little bit. Have you looked at a text recently? Here's how it works. The feds give money to the states. In return, the feds impose certain standards that are put onto a test -- TAKS in Texas. Now, the state of Texas and its school districts won't even look at a book that isn't directly correlated to the standards. In more direct language, unless the book is directly written to the test, with an instruction manual for the teacher on how to teach it to the test, the state won't even give the book a sniff. When a district adopts a text, guys like your's truly would go in for in-service sessions over the summer to teach the teachers how to use the book for the test.

Don't put this on the textbook companies either. They write what the states tell them to write, the editors shake their heads in disbelief, the states adopt, and the publishers laugh all the way to the bank in utter amazement that this is what the schools are buying.

eulesseagle · May 12, 2009

oldguystudent-

hopefully, we all know how it works through some form of association with the problem. As we both admit, local & state govts are forced to teach what the fed govt "mandates" you to teach in politically correct texts that has been given great "literary license" (as a former ntsu/unt english teacher would tell us when one could no longer recognize the rewriting of the story).

ogs....do you really think thowing more money, at this so called manipulated problem, is going to fix anything??? heck no. more money toward the problem only creates another "layer" of jobs for more politically correct administrators to remind you to teach a test so the school can get some sort of award and stay off the "crap" list of underachieving schools. In the meantime the teachers do their "pavlovian" duties.

oldguystudent · May 12, 2009

ogs....do you really think thowing more money, at this so called manipulated problem, is going to fix anything???

Nope. The more money they throw at it, the worse it gets. It's a two-way street too. The feds are only one side of the coin. The school districts themselves are little fiefdoms of rank amateur politicians fighting to hold on to their administrative titles. If I had any say in the matter, I'd send all the nation's kids on a one-year vacation somewhere, tear down every school district in America, fire every employee, raise the pay for teachers to six figures, and start interviewing. All former employees would be able to apply, but none would be guaranteed a job.

As for any argument of not having enough money, if you do a little digging, you can find millions upon millions of dollars that Texas school districts send back to the federal government every year because they fail to use it in a timely manner. Most of that money comes from titles I and III which are for the very students that aren't gonna' go to college.

Again, I'll reiterate that it isn't the textbook companies that are coming up with all the feel good stuff you see in the books. There are three major publishers left -- McGraw, Pearson and Cengage (formerly Thomson). They send their editors out to school districts and their marketers out to state legislators. They come back and write their books based on what the states of California, Florida, Texas and New York tell them to. Subdivide that into to factions of NY/CA and FL/TX and you get some very convoluted texts trying to please both factions as well as teach to the national NCLB standards.

My background was as an ESL specialist, so I'm intimately aware of the problems faced with the immigrant students. Forget for a second about securing the borders, because even if you were successfully able to do that, it would be 12 full years before you clear the school districts of the "anchor babies."

Ysleta and El Paso ISDs are two of the most heavily populated districts in the country with Spanish speaking students. A third district in El Paso, Socorro, traditionally catered to the children of migrant workers out in the rural areas. Thousands of those kids have such dubious residency that there are actually special border entries in El Paso for kids walking from Juarez to El Paso to go to school every morning. But the fact of the matter is that the districts are not allowed to inquire into the legal status of those students and they are there in the schools. In fact, a student who is not here legally can make it all the way through a 4-year university without ever getting checked out. There's a group of educators in the DFW area called BEAM who meet monthly. At least twice every year, they get lawyers in their meetings to discuss advocacy programs for these students. Nonetheless, the districts have to find something to do with these kids.

All three El Paso districts, prior to NCLB legislation, and led by years of research by Ysleta ISD (and San Ysidro at the California/Tijuana border crossing) showed that by allowing the students to complete their core studies in Spanish while teaching them English as a separate subject was a very successful plan of attack. Current legislation disallows this. In California, classes can not be taught in Spanish at all. In Texas, the students get two years and are then thrown into main stream English classes when they learn nothing, and the attention they require from teachers drags down the rest of the class.

You can go on all you want about immigration, getting rid of everybody, sealing the borders et al, but the reality is that it ain't gonna' happen. In fact, in 1994, California voted in favor of prop 187 by a 75/25 margin to deny all public services to illegal immigrants. The law was never enacted as it was immediately challenged and found to be unconstitutional. So in the mean time, you've got these thousands and thousands of kids here. What should we do with them? I see three choices:

1) Deny them a public education and set them loose on the streets

2) Provide them with a public education primarily in Spanish (the bilingual tract)

3) Pretty much detain them in a bunch of worn out school buildings and blabber English at them all day while taking attention away from the English speaking kids (pretty much current status quo)

I choose #2, but factions from both ends of the political spectrum prevent that from happening.

It's a mess out there. I really do agree with UNTFlyer on this one in theory, but I think you've got to tear the whole system down and start anew if you want to succeed at it.

hickoryhouse · May 12, 2009

Couple of things here. Flyer and OGS you guys are right about the need to significantly raise teacher salary, this way we could attract and retain qualified and intelligent teachers. My sister is an English teacher and I know that there are many many qualified teachers out there that are teaching because of an actual desire and love of children, our future, etc... On the other hand there is some truth, at this point, to the saying "those who can do, and those who can't teach" and we need to do something to reverse this trend.

Also, as far as ESL is concerned, America can actually take a lesson from Europe on this. The Girlfriend is from a former Soviet State in Eastern Europe, after the revolution they started teaching all students english and another language of their choosing. This three language system was mandated, with English and the natural language as the focus, and there was no way around it. We do have foreign language teaching here but to me it seems as though it is a secondary idea implemented as an afterthought and provided to kids at an age that is to late for many grasp, comprehend and develop fluency. In TX, NM, CA, AZ especially I am convinced that Spanish should be core curriculum beginning in a comprehensive manner during 3rd, maybe 4th grade. For the native Spanish, etc. speaker we need to find a way in which English can be kept as the standard to which classes are taught, however ESL programs are to often not effective thanks to to many different languages being spoken in the same room which leads to confusion and a lack of learning. This country is predominantly an English speaking nation and the rest of the industrialized world seems to be heading that way too. If we cannot find a way to increase the English comprehension of our students then they will be left behind in and increasingly globalized world.

forevereagle · May 12, 2009

Well, I'm a fiscal conservative but I believe in spending money on education. We should spend twice as much on education as we do on the military. Schools should be cathedrals... teachers should earn 6-figure salaries... dropping out of high school should be illegal... and at least two years of college should be compulsory.

I agree with almost all of this. I do have a difference in opinion about the bolded statement, though. The college degree has already been devalued some by the fact that such a large portion of the nation is able to attain one due to the recent trends that make getting into college easier and then easier to pass. I am not saying that we should stop this trend, but to require it seems to go against the idea of higher education. The people who are more gifted will then need to spend another two years in school to get a Master's in order to set themselves apart from everyone else. Besides, college isn't for everyone. I have known many people who didn't go to college, and were better served for it.

oldguystudent · May 12, 2009

I agree with almost all of this. I do have a difference in opinion about the bolded statement, though. The college degree has already been devalued some by the fact that such a large portion of the nation is able to attain one due to the recent trends that make getting into college easier and then easier to pass. I am not saying that we should stop this trend, but to require it seems to go against the idea of higher education. The people who are more gifted will then need to spend another two years in school to get a Master's in order to set themselves apart from everyone else. Besides, college isn't for everyone. I have known many people who didn't go to college, and were better served for it.

Agreed with a twist. I lament the loss of the vocational track in high school. Perhaps two years of mandatory post secondary education is in order, but it doesn't need to be academic. If you can't learn in a traditional college, perhaps beauty school or air conditioner repair is for you.

forevereagle · May 12, 2009

Agreed with a twist. I lament the loss of the vocational track in high school. Perhaps two years of mandatory post secondary education is in order, but it doesn't need to be academic. If you can't learn in a traditional college, perhaps beauty school or air conditioner repair is for you.

That makes sense to me. Now, if we can only implement the plan...

meangreendork · May 12, 2009

This whole stream of brilliance.

OGS - you're a hero poster around here, hitting on an important point in that teachers end up teaching to the test. Then when the time comes for a student to go to college, they may end up shorthanded and missing information their state didn't decide was worth learning. Or even worse, that student runs into a situation where they're without information asked for in the SAT or ACT exams.

We really do need to put more money into the education system. Along with national defense and healthcare, this one of the issues that I favor more money being put into...if it's well spent. That is, if more money is used on teacher salaries. I think we're doing our nation a huge disservice and cutting ourselves at the knees by risking the rest of someone's livelihood by playing fast and loose with their formative education. Better salaries mean better teachers via competition for those high-paying positions.

UNTflyer · May 12, 2009

The added benefit being that if you make teacher salaries right up there with engineers and financial analysts, you can demand a higher quality teacher... and that scares the crap out of a lot of "teachers".

emmitt01 · May 12, 2009

Well, I'm a fiscal conservative but I believe in spending money on education. We should spend twice as much on education as we do on the military. Schools should be cathedrals... teachers should earn 6-figure salaries... dropping out of high school should be illegal... and at least two years of college should be compulsory.

Couldn't disagree more. I think far too much time, energy and money are spent on keeping kids who don't want to be/don't belong in school. The way I see it schools should be able to say to kids "An education is here for the taking. If you're willing to put in the work and act like a human being you will get one free of charge. If you can't do that memorize the following...'would you like fries with that?'" Instead we spend resources trying to punish parents who either don't care or can't afford to keep tabs on lil' Johnnie, or we cater to the f-ups and try to make sure they pass high school. In the meantime we dumb down the curriculum and hold back the students who care about their education.

Green Guy Bass · May 12, 2009

Couldn't disagree more. I think far too much time, energy and money are spent on keeping kids who don't want to be/don't belong in school. The way I see it schools should be able to say to kids "An education is here for the taking. If you're willing to put in the work and act like a human being you will get one free of charge. If you can't do that memorize the following...'would you like fries with that?'" Instead we spend resources trying to punish parents who either don't care or can't afford to keep tabs on lil' Johnnie, or we cater to the f-ups and try to make sure they pass high school. In the meantime we dumb down the curriculum and hold back the students who care about their education.

I do wish that we spent more money on education in the right areas. However, it does irk me that Most school districts make money off attendance figure and standardized testing like TAKS. I do think that we need more trade schools as alternatives for kids, instead of the widespread expectations of all HS seniors going off to college, which most can't afford. If we had more trade schools there might be more pride in blue-collar jobs in this country - and maybe we could have less industries going overseas. Just a thought.

Curriculum does need to be more of a challenge for kiddos in public schools. HS was way too easy for many and they have no idea how to adjust in college. Also, parents need to take much more responsibilty in the education process - don't expect our watered down public schools to give a top notch education when we don't pay our teachers enough, and have administrators that won't take a stand against idiot parents.

eulesseagle · May 12, 2009

mgd, flyer & ogs as much as I agree with you on raising teacher salaries that is just a "pipe dream" that politicians use every election cycle to get the teacher vote. Never happens...never will.

the federal govt will continue to tell states what to teach for fear of retribution of loooooosing the fed funding.

in the mean time decent teachers and some not so decent teachers are forced to teach non-compiant (i tried not to say idiots) students who do not want to be in school who are there to disrupt any, if any, learning experience. teachers have told me if they get five to ten minutes of quality teaching in per class time they are doing excellent. get these non-compliant types out of the classroom and into the workforce. well, that will never happen either because it may hurt their self esteme and we don't want little johnny to feel bad, do we? Heck, after graduation or before he will be taking my order at burger king and hopefully he can remember the #1 i ordered long enough for his finger to touch the picture screen of the #1.

the govt is not going to do anything with the illegals that get "free" education and everything else over here. in the next twelve months look for congress to naturalize this new "voting block." they already strain our local and state governments for "FREE" education, hospitalization, and welfare at our expense. we set up another layer of administrators for ESL, special educ, spanish only classes, counselors, nurses & teachers....no telling what else we give away. as ogs said some in the el paso area go home to mexico for the night and come back the next day. well......this ain't going to change either.