Here's Why Government's Meddling

[FirefightnRick]

At a speech on April 18, 2009 at a rally for healthcare reform in Chicago, Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-IL) admits when that a strategic objective of the Obama healthcare reform plan is to destroy the private health insurance industry when she says she told a concerned represenative of a private health care insurance company that "I am so confident of the superiority of a public health care option, that I think he has every reason to be frightened".

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Rick

[UNTflyer]

If we declare health care is a right, how long before we say food and clothing and shelter is a right?

I don't think the solution is giving away health care, but to make it affordable for everyone. And here is my 5 step plan to do it:

1. For the next 15 years, all student loans for health-related college majors (physicians, nurses, organic chemists, etc.) are interest free.

2. All health education graduates can have their loans forgiven with 5 years of service in health clinics or hospitals for low-income citizens.

3. Spend $100 billion to build clinics and hospitals in the most needed areas.

4. Grant 20-year patents for pharmaceutical companies *IF* they establish programs that will sell drugs at cost for citizens at or below 200% of the poverty line.

5. Cap all malpractice lawsuits at 4 times actual damages and eliminate punitive damages, *BUT* create a national malpractice board that would suspend or revoke medical licenses for doctors that have been found negligent.

[UNTflyer]

The thing about all the other rights granted to us as American citizens is that it doesn't cost the tax payers any money. If we make Basic Healthcare a "right" in this country, it's going to cost a lot of people money. This "right" could quickly bankrupt this country if we get to a point where there are more people going with government sponsored healthcare than people paying into the system. This "right" basically will face the same problems Social Security will face when the vast majority of the Baby Boomers are in retirement.

Excellent point. A right does not impose an obligation on your fellow citizen, the exception being the right to a fair trial.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

My Girlfriend comes from a country with a national health care system in europe. She grew up in that country under communsitic reign. It is incredibly interesting to me to hear her speak about the US from her European point of view. I hear a good deal from her, and many other places, about the "negative foreign perspective" that the US has to a large part of the world, I hear about the disagreements that Europe has against us as a whole on foreign policy, taxes, investments, etc.

The one thing, over these past three years that we have been together, that strikes me the most odd.... is that she felt the same way as all of the America haters across the pond, until SHE GOT HERE!!! There is a marked difference in her opinion of America now vs the way that she and the majority of the youth of Europe felt when she first got here. She doesn't hate us now that she knows us, she isn't as frustrated about our foreign policy decisions anymore as she learns more about the history of foreign policy of this country and as she learns more about the United States tradition of foreign aid that is unequaled anywhere in the world...

She does however miss government run dentistry... Not so much the rest of Government run Health care.... As a young girl she was the victim of a horrible truck vs. bike accident. In Europe with that form of government run health care she was submitted to relatively rudimentary emergency care and substandard, by American standards, post trauma and cosmetic care after the accident. Her family is by no means rich, but could afford a much higher level of care had she been here in the states. She was forced to go to that doctor thanks to government regulations and due to that substandard level of government run health care, she still suffers from an accident that happened more than ten years ago.

I understand the desire to have affordable health care for the masses, the government is not the body to do that. I have a personal example of this wake up next to me every morning. I do not see any reason why there is such a push for the government to take control of this industry, no one has been able to give me a good reason or a decent example of where this has worked or why it will work here.

The truth is that we all agree there is a need for health care reform, we just don't agree on how to do it. The government should be ashamed of themselves for trying to force a major change in regards to our health care on us without a significant debate. Lets fix whats wrong, but at least let us talk about how to do it.

My wife is from Mexico and shudders at the thought of a health care system in the socialists vein like the have in her home country.

The problem is always the same, in health care or anything else, the only way to make all things equal is to dumb it down. Unfortunately, we are well into three generations of ingrates in this country. Every generation past those that fought in WWII is nothing but a bunch of snivelling "me, me, me" brats.

The proof is our debt and how national leaders in both parties now simply ignore it and spend more. Because of the mass idiocy and helplessness shown my so many in our country, we will have to accept a lower standard of living in every area of life. We are truly rotting from within.

[KRAM1]

Every generation past those that fought in WWII is nothing but a bunch of snivelling "me, me, me" brats.

Note current occupant of the White House.

[FirefightnRick]

When the wife was pregnant, we had prenatal care, prenatal tests, the birth, the hospital stay, and the NICU stay denied, denied, denied, even though all doctors, tests, procedures and hospitals were clearly in-network and clearly on the list of approved procedures. The prenatal birth defect test, in fact, is mandated by the state of California to be covered by insurance. Afterward? Birth control pills. Guess what? Denied again. I got it all covered in the end, but I've been pretty convinced ever since that insurance companies systematically deny every claim knowing that a certain percentage of people won't fight it. This was insurance through my company through a major national provider on their most expensive and comprehensive plan.

Just curious, but what kind of sorry insurance was this OSG? I couldn't even begin to trace back and think of how many hundreds of people I know who have had children during my short lifetime. Literally 100's just on the fire department alone, all during several changes in insurance companies no less, and I have never heard of anything remotely close to what your describing? An increase in rates for deductibles of course, but outright denied, no. In fact, I know 2 couples who were not able to get pregnant and were able to secure a percentage of assistance from their insurance company during attempts at going the in vetro route. I think back on the numerous surgeries and procedures I and so many others I know have had and I have never heard anyone speak of outright denials to the level that anyone would be pushed to the point of considering a national health care as the optional choice? Internal surgeries, knee and hip replacements(my own captain just two years ago), eye surgeries(me as well), cancer treatments, allergy treatments etc and on and on and on. I mean, I couldn't even guess how many people I have come in contact with over the course of my life and discussed with them or overheard their medical treatments and remember them saying, "They denied me". I remember the story last summer about the woman who came down with lymphoma and her insurance delayed her treatment until some congressman got involved(can't remember who that was but it was in the Star Telegram last year?), and then her insurance only then decided upon paying for her treatment only to find out that it had spread. I know there are those cases and they are horrible. No one is saying our system is perfect by any stretch, but to be denied prenatal care, I have never heard of at all. EVERYONE, including any and all illegal immigrants are getting OBGyn care here in this country.

Rick

[GreenBat]

Note current occupant of the White House.

As I was reading this thread, I was wondering when someone (not surprised at all at who it was) bring up the "current occupant of the White House" and not bother to mention he has been their for just slightly more than 100 days.

Healthcare took a long time to mess up, it's going to take a long time to fix.

Edited May 4, 2009 by GreenBat

[Guest JohnDenver]

5. Cap all malpractice lawsuits at 4 times actual damages and eliminate punitive damages, *BUT* create a national malpractice board that would suspend or revoke medical licenses for doctors that have been found negligent.

Malpractice is bad and all... but I don't agree with capping the damages. I don't know the dollar amount that could repay for the loss of my gonads (because of a mislabeled ER sheet) before I was able to reproduce. I am not sure how I feel about it.

[UNT90]

I'm more curious to find out what the "level headed" right wingers think of our current health care system. Nixon signed it into law even after this conversation!

Right now a doctor doesn't decide if I get the necessary surgery I need. Some clown in a cubicle in Omaha, Nebraska (or some other random city) whom I've never met nor knows anything about me makes that call.

I understand your fears. I'm not 100% sold on it either, but it has to be better than what we have now. We are the only industrialized nation w/o universal health care. Why? B/C money rules. Big pharma (just like the NRA) is in the pockets of our politicians, left and right. It's why I wouldn't vote for Hillary, more specifically why I look at 3rd party candidates. HMO's are about making money, not looking out for your best interest. At least with government control you have a voice, but with corporation control is all about the board room. If you're poor, or really just unemployed, you're screwed.

A coworker of mine is about to be laid off. He's been with the company 23 years. He's 7 years away from early retirement. He's done all the right things, saved, invested, etc. The loss of income doesn't scare him, but the loss of health insurance is petrifying! All it takes is trouble with his ticker and his savings is wiped out! Why is that? If universal health care is not the answer, then what is? Our current system DOES NOT WORK!

Time and time again I've been told by people on the right to talk to Canadians about their system and how flawed it is. I have. My employer used to do quite a bit of business with a Canadian company. While they admit some problems, they said they would much rather have their system, every last one of them!

If the right wingers are so sure that Obama's plans are going to fail, and more people will be unemployed, then those people will most likely be uninsured as well. That just leaves people dying in the streets.

At the very least, insure children. Let me say this again with emphasis, at the very least, insure children. If you don't want to pay for some meth head's ingrown toenail surgery, I understand that logic. But a child born into poverty shouldn't have to suffer just b/c his parents are poor.

So again I ask you, are you happy with the current system? And if not what are your solutions?

If you really believe the government will care more about you, give you more imput as a non-paying customer than a for-profit HMO or other private health care business that competes for your business, then you have a lot to learn about life.

My best friend from High School lives in Canada. He tore up his knee and had to endure 6 months of pain (he has a highly physical job which he couldn't afford to miss) before finally getting his turn for knee surgery. He seriously considered going to the states and paying full price to get it done, but decided ot tough it out. He is NOT a fan of that health care system.

[UNT90]

Must be some pretty horrific health care up there.

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I would wager the difference is in convenience on the routine stuff and quality on the super rare experimental surgeries that keep Keith Richards alive. Honestly, I doubt there's much difference between some socialist immigrant in Canada giving me a flu shot and a member of the country club set doing it here. I'll reiterate that I think the government should have something available for everybody, but not mandate participation in it. Let the market decide on the private health care (most of which these days, I still believe will actively let a patient die over losing a couple bucks), but don't be killing off the poor with no insurance. We do, after all, need ditch diggers.

Oh. One other thing. For those who say there's nothing wrong with the current system (not meant to imply endorsement for government control), in the last 8 years of respectable employment with a major company, my insurance coverage went from 100% no deductible to 70% $1500 per person deductible. My pay increased an average of 3.5% per year while my insurance premiums rose an average of 11% per year. Doesn't take a Nobel laureate to do the math and see that in the long run, I would actually be paying my company for the privilege of working for them. That IS a broken system. I don't care who you blame it on, and I don't care if you're against national health care. That's all well and good, but don't tell me the current system is 100% honky dory. Especially if you're a public employee with guaranteed lifetime health coverage. If the litmus test of national health care is to make the members of congress subscribe to it, then the litmus test of the free market insurance system that we have today is to make all supporters, especially those with lifelong free rides, have to go out and find acceptable coverage at acceptable prices.

Believe me, I've never met an elderly person who was carrying a pair of pom poms so they could cheer for medicare. I get that medicare sucks and it is the example of national health care. I don't want that either. I do think something needs to change though. I do think that basic health care IS a right. Health is one of the basic standards by which a nation is measured. Plastic surgery might not be a right, but health care is. Something's got to be available for everybody. I really don't care if it IS Paco from the wrong side of the fence. Some things are just the right thing to do.

I'd bet that the increased life expectancy of the Canadians have a lot more to do with diet and exercise habits of Canadians compared to Americans than they do with the different health care systems. Maybe thier habits are that way because they are afraid they will have to go to the doctor and receive substandard care if they don't treat thier body right. Have I mentioned that I love the Western Canadian Woman?

Either that or they are just pickled and preserved from all the beer consumption.

[UNTflyer]

I'd bet that the increased life expectancy of the Canadians have a lot more to do with diet and exercise habits of Canadians compared to Americans than they do with the different health care systems. Maybe thier habits are that way because they are afraid they will have to go to the doctor and receive substandard care if they don't treat thier body right. Have I mentioned that I love the Western Canadian Woman?

Either that or they are just pickled and preserved from all the beer consumption.

This is another good point.

Americans are fat, drink heavily, take pills for every ailment known to man, and participate in high risk activities such as smoking and drug use at a higher rate than our European and Canadian cousins. Simply put, we are consuming scarce resources and the result is higher prices.

If the government is suddenly picking up the tab, how long before they start legislating what you eat, what you drink, etc?

No easy solution here, folks.

Edited May 5, 2009 by UNTflyer

[hickoryhouse]

As I was reading this thread, I was wondering when someone (not surprised at all at who it was) bring up the "current occupant of the White House" and not bother to mention he has been their for just slightly more than 100 days.

Healthcare took a long time to mess up, it's going to take a long time to fix.

It is going to take a long time to fix..... That is exactly right and no one on this board could have said it better. And if that is the case, it is going to take a long time to achieve a solution that works for the masses, then why is the current government in power trying to shove a socialized care system down our throat without debate? We have all agreed that there is no easy solution, why does our current government think there is?

Edited May 5, 2009 by hickoryhouse

[eulessismore]

This is another good point.

Americans are fat, drink heavily, take pills for every ailment known to man, and participate in high risk activities such as smoking and drug use at a higher rate than our European and Canadian cousins. Simply put, we are consuming scarce resources and the result is higher prices.

If the government is suddenly picking up the tab, how long before they start legislating what you eat, what you drink, etc?

No easy solution here, folks.

We SMOKE more than them? I did feel that the Canadians smoked a lot when I've been up there, and have heard that the Europeans haven't slowed down the slightest, and still smoke those ready rolls down to the filter. It is discouraging to see so many people light one up when my commuter train deboards the passengers in downtown Dallas. I was however, a bit surprised to hear on NPR today that 22% of adult American men and 19% of women smoke.

Ominously, I'm starting to see more people I can readily identify as meth users around Euless; I'm fairly certain we'll never get any government assistance with dental care while that's on the increase.

[Mean Green 93-98]

We SMOKE more than them? I did feel that the Canadians smoked a lot when I've been up there, and have heard that the Europeans haven't slowed down the slightest, and still smoke those ready rolls down to the filter. It is discouraging to see so many people light one up when my commuter train deboards the passengers in downtown Dallas. I was however, a bit surprised to hear on NPR today that 22% of adult American men and 19% of women smoke.

You got me curious. Not sure the date on this, but you are correct--France, Germany, and the Netherlands are all solidly in the 30th percentile. http://www.who.int/tobacco/en/atlas40.pdf

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Malpractice is bad and all... but I don't agree with capping the damages. I don't know the dollar amount that could repay for the loss of my gonads (because of a mislabeled ER sheet) before I was able to reproduce. I am not sure how I feel about it.

They've already been capped here. That's why malpractice rates have dropped in Texas and more doctors are coming here. Damages should be capped and have been in states that have responsible legislatures.

[stebo]

It's really a simple problem to fix and of course Washington can't just use the simple answer. As it is - there are two types of people (no matter the age) that get sick, the insured and the non-insured. The problem is that they both are forced to use the same system to get treated. The people that are paying for their treatment are simply subsidizing those that don't because the system has to make a profit as medicine is a for profit industry. While they are at it, they might as well overcharge and get overpaid. Why not? There is no regulation, there are lobbyists. The problem is that a doctor takes an oath to treat anyone in need despite their economic background - so how does a doctor do his or her duty without breaking the hypocratic oath and still turn the uninsured away? An alternative needs to exist... and not the ER, that is the problem. The cost overruns in the ER trickle into every system all the way to med prices. The only one getting screwed is the family doctor. How do you fix all this? Provide a vaiable alternative for family doctors to accept public health insurance.

Think of this like a Club Store - kind of like a Costco. As a member, you have "insurance" and are part of the club. What if that was the only place to get your goods - period. Otherwise you were just screwed because you didn't have a membership. Make those goods something that you needed to survive, go to work, stop your kid from crying, etc... would you rob that store if there were no consequences? Sure you would, because it wasn't fair. The store was closed off to you, and maybe you had a chance to get a membership card but you needed to keep gas in your car that month to get to work.

Ok - enough of the sob stories - I have lived without health care as a self-employed man and it sucks. One trip to the ER for a seizure back in 2003 and I am literally still making monthly payments on it... and I was only there for 2 nights. I could choose not to pay it but my credit would have been hurt and I wouldn't have been able to by my houses. And yes, I went to a public hospital - by luck... after all, when you are waking up from a seizure, you don't exactly pick where the ambulance drops you.

So stop the sob stories and just set up a second "Costco" for all the jerks like I used to be that couldn't afford or didn't think that they needed insurance. That system WILL cost less than the surrent subsidizing that takes place. If you don't think that you are paying for public health care now - you are not awake. We already have public health care - it is just disguised and it screws the insurance customers in the biggest way. The insurance companies do not have a choice but to regulate doctors, your meds, and raise their rates - they are just being billed by the system. And because you use the same system that the non-payers use, the prices will always be 20 times more than they would be in the open market. Just establich a second system of equally sound health care for the non-insured and subsidize it with taxes. It would be less than forcing everyone to make the change over and it would fix a lot of the problems. Kids would have health care and so would those damn illegals that keep your food/construction/everything costs down! Americans don't want to work, not unless it is in the air conditioned and not unless they are getting what it "owed" to them.

You are paying for it anyway - but since it is such a web of lies, deceit, and taking from one account to subsidize another - the fraud that takes place every day is actually ethical to doctors - you know, the knee doctor that has you wait in his waiting room for 3 hours so that he can look at you for 4 minutes before hopping in his Porsche for lunch? How cheap would it be to have recently graduated med students work in these government run clinics for their residencies and than for the next 4 years to wipe out their student loan debt? Wouldn't it be great for people to go to school to actually be family doctors again? I bet that a steady $100K a year with no need to fill out forms or deal with insurance companies would have them linign up around the corner for those jobs. Don't believe me, ask a doctor.

[FirefightnRick]

Wouldn't it be great for people to go to school to actually be family doctors again? I bet that a steady $100K a year with no need to fill out forms or deal with insurance companies would have them linign up around the corner for those jobs. Don't believe me, ask a doctor.

Unless I read your post right, you think the brightest of the bright(those who I assume qualify for Med School), are going to leap at the chance to go through the hell and the years of training for a job the government will control(cap) at $100K?

Rick

[hickoryhouse]

Unless I read your post right, you think the brightest of the bright(those who I assume qualify for Med School), are going to leap at the chance to go through the hell and the years of training for a job the government will control(cap) at $100K?

Rick

I think so, they have got to have residency anyway, and student loans are a beating, why not? You can't just go straight from med school to private practice. The government could also mandate service if the student uses a government loan, similar to the way they mandate 20 years of service in the military if the Army puts you through med school. Why not make a stipulation that if you want to have a low interest government student loan for med school then then your residency + a couple years must be in this new "Costco" medical system. AFter that is over you can go to your private practice job and continue on in the normal med world if you wish.

[stebo]

Unless I read your post right, you think the brightest of the bright(those who I assume qualify for Med School), are going to leap at the chance to go through the hell and the years of training for a job the government will control(cap) at $100K?

Rick

There is a huge shortage in family doctors. Residency pays about $40K a year. After residency, a family doctor could work 1 year for each year of med school and it could even be routed through Job Corp. People just aren't going towards family medicine as a first choice anymore... the way it works is that people apply for residencies and go through a blind match system. They interview and rank their choices. If they "match" up - they get a spot there if there is one available. The folks that don't match, become family doctors. So your family doctors are the folks that were left over. Most are not choosing family medicine, despite it being the fastest way to practice, because dealing with insurance companies and malpractice insurance make it so that a doctor is LUCKY to bring home a 150K a year. I would guarantee you that many of them would choose to give all that overhead and hassle up to just practice medicine without having to run a business. They went to school to help people, not to argue with insurance companies. My family doc back in Roanoke got so burned out that he sold his practice and went to go work for someone else... he later returned to the same building, bought it back, and only takes cash and a few selct insurance companies. I seriously doubt he makes $100K a year but he is happy. So it works in both cases - people that want to retire their debt AND people that want to just practice medicine and not deal with the insurance companies/malpractice insurance premiums.

[stebo]

And by the way - way to twist my words by adding that it would "cap" at 100K. Typical.

[FirefightnRick]

And by the way - way to twist my words by adding that it would "cap" at 100K. Typical.

How cheap would it be to have recently graduated med students work in these government run clinics for their residencies and than for the next 4 years to wipe out their student loan debt? Wouldn't it be great for people to go to school to actually be family doctors again? I bet that a steady $100K a year with no need to fill out forms or deal with insurance companies would have them linign up around the corner for those jobs. Don't believe me, ask a doctor.

Let's see. I read "How cheap would it be" and "government run clinics", then "a steady $100K a year with no need to fill out forms or deal with insurance companies", which all implies minimal work for minimal money. Yet I'm "twisting" your words by mentioning a cap. Silly me.

And by the way. I'll see two family doctors on Thursday and will present your scenario to them and see what they say and get back with you.

Until then, check out what socialized medicine looks like.

NHS patients told to treat themselves.

maximum 18-week delay from GP referral to treatment by December is an "impossibility".

Kidney cancer patients denied life-saving drugs by NHS rationing body NICE

Girl, 3, has heart operation cancelled three times because of bed shortage

Number of children going to hospital to have teeth pulled soars by 66% since 1997

Cancer survivor confronts the health secretary on 62-day wait

Why Ontario keeps sending patients south

Rick

[stebo]

Rick,

You and I are friends. In fact, I consider you a very, very good friend. Not a more trustworthy man. You have trusted me and I have trusted you for years. Maybe this is the thing that people always talk about when they say that friends shouldn't discuss politics. But I was married to a doctor - and regardless of the outcomes, I dealt with student loans and paying them off. And I guarantee you that if I really wanted to - I could find a collection of articles to say the exact opposite. And you can find doctors that will agree with you and I can find doctors that would agree with me.

I am a conservative. What I learned from being married to a doctor is that it is all a game. The entire system is bs. We are already paying for it but its hidden in rising costs. I actually do not agree with public medicine from the feds, but I do believe that each state should have protection for children. A doctor takes an oath and that oath is all bs if they have to check with an insurance company first.

What I was trying to say is that there should be a system for those kids - other than the ER (which affects our premiums and med prices). If a kid could go to a clinic for the flu or strep throat or whatever - they wouldn't go to the ER for it. It wouldn't get out of control. And the costs would be minimal to treat them. A doctor just out of residency (4 years of med school and 3 years of residency) generally has $100K + in loans if not more. Their first job pays them anywhere between $80K-$130K to be a grunt and get their licks in. And I don't need anyone to affirm that - my ex was an internist. After student loan payments, that can be knocked down to between $50K and $100K a year. Working in a family practice subsidized by the state - like many states in the NE, would be a great way to get their career started... they could give back and gain experience under an attending physician. It is basically what the military offers, in fact - it is more than the military offers. I set an abstract amount of 100K. I didn't do any research on it and I just went by a reasonable amount based on my own life experience. After completing their time and the loans were forgave, they could stay on as an attendee or start their own practice. Instead of paying off student loans their first 4-10 years, they would be working debt free and building up credit to open a practice. It would also allow them to buy a house. They could leave at any time and choose to pay the remainder of their debt.

This system is not a new system - it exists with the military already.

There are some things that a civilized nation has and those are the basic abilities to take care of their people. If their people are sick, we should take care of them. If the roads need to be fixed, we should fix and build roads. If a fire starts, we should be civilized enough to use tax payer money to make sure that the fire doesn't hurt other houses or buildings. Sure those people have insurance for fire but their safety is important. So I ask you the same question again - since you work for the government. How is working for the fire department with the intent on saving lives and protecting property a civil right but getting treated for a broken leg not? It doesn't make sense and you pay for it whether the right wing wackos want to admit it or not. You pay for it because you have insurance and your insurance pays your doctor/hospital bills and those bills are over-inflated to subsidize the folks that don't have insurance. Because it is such a sneaky system as it is, the insurance companies - which are FOR PROFIT organizations, raise their prices to whatever they can get. The hospitals do the same. HMO's have broken down the system worse than any type of free clinic system would. If you are able to coordinate a system of available care centers for the non-insured AND force the current industry back to reasonable rates all the way around, the monopoly in place will be broke up and the true capitalistic system that you hope for would actually happen.

So I will ask you again - and I love ya brother - and I thank you for what you do for a living... how is the right to services such as the fire department any different to rights for medical care? Would you agree that at least children should be covered? What about college students that no longer are accepted by their parents' insurance? Should they just be "extra careful" and damn them to hell if they rupture an appendix? I had a guy that worked for me when I owned the bar - he was 22 and had been dropped from his parents' insurance because of his agre despite being a full time college student. He couldn't afford health insurance and he had his appendix rupture. I don't remember the exact amount but it was over $100K. I remember thinking at the time, he will probably not be able to buy a house until he is 40. He will get a credit check upon looking for a job and unless he is up to date, he won't pass it and thus not getting a quality job. As great of a company that I work for, we will not hire ANYONE in default of more than $10K worth of debt. The system is screwed. So I ask you - wha if you had to ask a person for their insurance card before you put their fire out and if they didn't have it - you just said - "sorry, I can't help you buddy" and get back on that truck and drive back to the station. How are the instances any different?