Wsj On The Declassified Justice Department Memos

[FirefightnRick]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html

The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law.

Rick

[meangreenacct]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html

Rick

You do realize this is an opinion piece written by people who were members of the Bush Justice Department at the time the memos were written, right?

[Censored by Laurie]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html

Rick

You can attempt to justify it all you want...it was still torture. Waterboarding (especially waterboarding the same person over 1000 times in a month's period, about 35 times a day) is still torture. Now if you want to make the arguement that waterboarding isn't like removing fingernails, I'm fine with that...but when you take the hardline "we don't torture" stance and attemtp to set a moral example to the rest of the world, these docs discredit that 100%

[FirefightnRick]

...it was still torture.

Can you imagine the laughter from within that must have been tormenting the king of Jordan as Obama stood there in front of him the other day and criminalized those within the CIA and their lawyers over this so called "Torture", considering what the muslim nations do to their prisoners?

And how about the rest of the memos that describe the success of these procedures? When will B.O. declassify those? I'll answer that, he won't because it would prove him wrong, which he is.

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

You have to wonder what kind of sickness we are now dealling with when the leader of the free world has zero conscience in approving late term abortions on an innocent baby, in which scissors are thrusted into the back of the child's skull as he/she are allowed to suffocate to death, yet claims we are losing "our moral bearings" because three barbarians who's sole purpose in living are to kill as many of us as possible, are put through a tested and successful procedure designed to make them THINK they are drowning without any physical harm done to them whatsoever in order to obtain information needed to keep this nation and it's people safe?

Rick

Edited April 22, 2009 by FirefightnRick

[untbowler]

You can attempt to justify it all you want...it was still torture. Waterboarding (especially waterboarding the same person over 1000 times in a month's period, about 35 times a day) is still torture. Now if you want to make the arguement that waterboarding isn't like removing fingernails, I'm fine with that...but when you take the hardline "we don't torture" stance and attemtp to set a moral example to the rest of the world, these docs discredit that 100%

Sorry to hi-jack but Rick have you heard B.O.'s stance on the current New Haven, CT Fire fighter discrimination suit by 20 fire men over testing scores being rejected that is being heard currently by the Supreme Court.

[FirefightnRick]

Sorry to hi-jack but Rick have you heard B.O.'s stance on the current New Haven, CT Fire fighter discrimination suit by 20 fire men over testing scores being rejected that is being heard currently by the Supreme Court.

No, I haven't heard about it.

Rick

[meangreendork]

Actually, the damage from waterboarding isn't from the water itself. It's the damage caused as a result of the illusion of drowning and O2 deprivation. That's damage to the lungs, brain damage from a lack of O2, and worse, psychological damage. Death is very possible. Anyone who says it's a "harmless interrogation technique" needs to do more homework. It's basically like faking someone's execution, which is more or less illegal.

It doesn't kill or damage via flooding of the lungs. It does its damage via asphyxiation.

But that's not really the problem:

The problem was the public claim that the US does not torture, when it does. Without that statement being made, the situation would be a lot less scandalous. It makes the US lose a lot of credibility in doing so.

[keith]

You do realize this is an opinion piece written by people who were members of the Bush Justice Department at the time the memos were written, right?

What's your point?

Keith

[untbowler]

Actually, the damage from waterboarding isn't from the water itself. It's the damage caused as a result of the illusion of drowning and O2 deprivation. That's damage to the lungs, brain damage from a lack of O2, and worse, psychological damage. Death is very possible. Anyone who says it's a "harmless interrogation technique" needs to do more homework. It's basically like faking someone's execution, which is more or less illegal.

It doesn't kill or damage via flooding of the lungs. It does its damage via asphyxiation.

But that's not really the problem:

The problem was the public claim that the US does not torture, when it does. Without that statement being made, the situation would be a lot less scandalous. It makes the US lose a lot of credibility in doing so.

so you assume the US did not torture during Clinton, LBJ, JFK, FDR?

[hickoryhouse]

The government is going to utilize some means to get information from prisoners. Usualy they are not going to give up information voluntarily (sp). I am not advocating, nor am I vilifying waterboarding I am only saying that techniques that are less than wholesome are going to be used.

I would like to know what the people who are to voraciously against waterboarding as "torture" suggest that we do instead. Do you feel that gathering the information that prisoners have is important? How do we go about getting that info?

[meangreendork]

so you assume the US did not torture during Clinton, LBJ, JFK, FDR?

You're missing the point:

It's one thing to admit it and look bad. It's one thing to deny it, have the information come out, and look even worse for doing it AND lying AND getting caught.

And about the use of torture during interrogations in previous administrations? Torture is a part of old-school information warfare and intelligence gathering. It's as old as warfare itself. Anyone who says they don't engage in it is either lying or not aware it's being done. The level of torture may vary, but it's always there, always in use. I'm actually a bit pissed off you think I would assume something that naive.

Edited April 22, 2009 by meangreendork

[meangreenacct]

What's your point?

Keith

Keith,

The title implied that it was the WSJ reporting on the matter (or at least that is how I interpreted it). That would imply so amount of impartiallity and journalistic standards being followed, that is not the case when it is actually something in the opinion page of the journal. Seemed sort of a misleading way to present something.

[yyz28]

You have to wonder what kind of sickness we are now dealling with when the leader of the free world has zero conscience in approving late term abortions on an innocent baby, in which scissors are thrusted into the back of the child's skull as he/she are allowed to suffocate to death, yet claims we are losing "our moral bearings" because three barbarians who's sole purpose in living are to kill as many of us as possible, are put through a tested and successful procedure designed to make them THINK they are drowning without any physical harm done to them whatsoever in order to obtain information needed to keep this nation and it's people safe?

Rick

I'm pro-choice and even I agree with this.

The lives saved in LA > The lives of these terrorists.

We can argue the symantics of this all day long. I agree, the government should have said they were doing this all along and not gotten into the torture debate.

I have no problem inflicting a little psycological damage on someone who is hell bent on killing thousands of innocent lives - one might even argue that the damage to that mind was done before we got our hands on him.

[Censored by Laurie]

I'm pro-choice and even I agree with this.

Agreed. Sixth months is more than enough time to figure out what to do with your drunken mistake/incestious rape child.

The lives saved in LA > The lives of these terrorists.

I thought I remember hearing it was the tapping of phone lines that prevented this "9/11 scale L.A. Attack"

We can argue the symantics of this all day long. I agree, the government should have said they were doing this all along and not gotten into the torture debate.

Israel did it back in 2000...it was something everyone knew and when they came clean it was just a "yeah...and?" kinda response. Same thing should've happened here a long time ago.

I have no problem inflicting a little psycological damage on someone who is hell bent on killing thousands of innocent lives - one might even argue that the damage to that mind was done before we got our hands on him.

So long as we KNOW that they are hell bent on killing thousands of innocent lives...and not just doing it for the Muslim fun of it...then so am I...especially the guy who was afraid of bugs.

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

I would like to know what the people who are to voraciously against waterboarding as "torture" suggest that we do instead. Do you feel that gathering the information that prisoners have is important? How do we go about getting that info?

Force the prisoners to listen to repeated BeeGees songs 24/7.

[yyz28]

So long as we KNOW that they are hell bent on killing thousands of innocent lives...and not just doing it for the Muslim fun of it...then so am I...especially the guy who was afraid of bugs.

Since KSM was involved in the planning of 9/11, we already did KNOW their intent.

[eulesseagle]

I really do not care what our intelligence services do to obtain information to protect US citizens against muslim terrorists. If cbl wants to take a look at what real torture is then review the head decapitations, performed by muslims, that were posted on the web.....oh yea.....these guys and girls where alive when the decapitations began. perhaps cbl likes shirea (sp) law since she is so ademant about siding with the arabs so often and calling Isreal a racist nation. perhaps cbl can be this vocal about muslim torture under shirea (sp) law, maybe.

[meangreendork]

I really do not care what our intelligence services do to obtain information to protect US citizens against muslim terrorists. If cbl wants to take a look at what real torture is then review the head decapitations, performed by muslims, that were posted on the web.....oh yea.....these guys and girls where alive when the decapitations began. perhaps cbl likes shirea (sp) law since she is so ademant about siding with the arabs so often and calling Isreal a racist nation. perhaps cbl can be this vocal about muslim torture under shirea (sp) law, maybe.

I think you missed something:

So long as we KNOW that they are hell bent on killing thousands of innocent lives...and not just doing it for the Muslim fun of it...then so am I...especially the guy who was afraid of bugs.

Also, spellcheck.

[GreenBat]

I really do not care what our intelligence services do to obtain information to protect US citizens against muslim terrorists. If cbl wants to take a look at what real torture is then review the head decapitations, performed by muslims, that were posted on the web.....oh yea.....these guys and girls where alive when the decapitations began. perhaps cbl likes shirea (sp) law since she is so ademant about siding with the arabs so often and calling Isreal a racist nation. perhaps cbl can be this vocal about muslim torture under shirea (sp) law, maybe.

Do you care what our intelligence services do to obtain information to protect US citizens against Catholic-raised terrorist like Timothy McVeigh. Does he have the same Civil Right's as the Buddist terrorist or the Wican terrorist. Torture is torture no matter if it is done on an American or a Muslim, Buddist, Wican or any religion. The third and Fourth Geneva Convention officially agree not to torture protected persons (POWs and enemy civilians) in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 145 states.

[UNTflyer]

The third and Fourth Geneva Convention officially agree not to torture protected persons (POWs and enemy civilians) in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 145 states.

If we ever capture a terrorist involved in a plot to blow up an American elementary school, that Geneva Convention should come in real handy.

Edited April 23, 2009 by UNTflyer

[oldguystudent]

Force the prisoners to listen to repeated BeeGees songs 24/7.

Make them watch the spread offense every week.

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

Make them watch the spread offense every week.

Ouch...very ouch!

[hickoryhouse]

Do you care what our intelligence services do to obtain information to protect US citizens against Catholic-raised terrorist like Timothy McVeigh. Does he have the same Civil Right's as the Buddist terrorist or the Wican terrorist. Torture is torture no matter if it is done on an American or a Muslim, Buddist, Wican or any religion. The third and Fourth Geneva Convention officially agree not to torture protected persons (

POWs and enemy civilians) in armed conflicts. Torture is also prohibited by the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which has been ratified by 145 states.

I don't care what race religion gender etc a person is and I do agree that as a nation we have got to be better than the extremist that we are currently at war with. We do not practice the same type of "torture" that the terrorists and al queda do.

My question still stands, since we cannot engage in torture, and I am assuming that you feel waterboarding is torture, how do you suggest we gather the information from enemy combatants that are captured which could prevent another attack and save American lives?

[eulessismore]

I don't care what race religion gender etc a person is and I do agree that as a nation we have got to be better than the extremist that we are currently at war with. We do not practice the same type of "torture" that the terrorists and al queda do.

My question still stands, since we cannot engage in torture, and I am assuming that you feel waterboarding is torture, how do you suggest we gather the information from enemy combatants that are captured which could prevent another attack and save American lives?

There's drugs that make people like to talk. I don't know how cruel or unusual inflicting them on people would be, since people I knew in college days inflicted them on themselves.

[eulesseagle]

I really do not think that terrorists believe & abide in the geneva convention.

U.N. is a limp (you know what) organization.

Major concerns on the issue:

1. The plan to repatriate the "detainees" (how is that for political correctness). Like prison recidivists about 60% of these so called rehabilitated "detainees" have either been recaptured or killed in our current war zones.

2. There is another plan to "resettle" these "detainees" with government benefits in U.S. neighborhoods.

3. Are the original "Bush" government lawyers going to be procecuted for supporting the defined "torture?" Somehow I believe they are even though the article says no.

dork, spell check?? come on buddy who has time for spell check or grammar check? these are blogs not english 101 theme writing papers.