Details Of Dawson's Death

[GoMeanGreen1999]

I'd say this info certainly puts the entire drug testing scandal from last fall in a completely different light.

Makes you wonder if the problems still exist.

[aprice]

How many more of these cases must happen before we realize that the prohibition of pot is absolutely ridiculous. You don't have to be a pothead to see this, I don't even smoke. The fact is, if you want pot, you can get it in about 10 minutes (especially if you're a college student). The war on drugs does not work, it never has, it creates criminals, and young people die over it. Is this the result you want from the billions of tax dollars going to this war on drugs? I do not think any less of Dawson, especially at this stage of the investigation where we really don't know squat.

[emmitt01]

Yes, but not usually for small-time pot deals.

So, just how much experience do you have with drug deals? Murders over drug deals?

I only ask because I have considerably more perspective and think you're making an assumption that is, without pun intended, out of left field.

[MeanGreenZen]

None of this would have happened if drugs were legal.

[UNTflyer]

So, just how much experience do you have with drug deals? Murders over drug deals?

I only ask because I have considerably more perspective and think you're making an assumption that is, without pun intended, out of left field.

Well then, do enlighten us. How often is a pot dealer shot over a quarter bag?

[emmitt01]

Well then, do enlighten us. How often is a pot dealer shot over a quarter bag?

More than you would imagine. Quantity of dope isn't a hard/fast rule for whether or not violence will occur. Verbal arguments preceding the shooting, overly nervous participants in the deal, robbery gone bad, the list goes on as to why someone might get shot in a drug deal.

The main point, the thesis if you will, is that I find it amusing you speak of drug trafficking as if your knowledge stretches further that what you've seen on film or read in the metro section. More importantly, it's sad that conjecture is often taken as gospel in these situations when little to no facts are known.

Edited April 2, 2009 by emmitt01

[GreenMachine]

More than you would imagine. Quantity of dope isn't a hard/fast rule for whether or not violence will occur. Verbal arguments preceding the shooting, overly nervous participants in the deal, robbery gone bad, the list goes on as to why someone might get shot in a drug deal.

The main point, the thesis if you will, is that I find it amusing you speak of drug trafficking as if your knowledge stretches further that what you've seen on film or read in the metro section. More importantly, it's sad that conjecture is often taken as gospel in these situations when little to no facts are known.

so basically you are saying that people that don't have a background in finance shouldn't have an opionion on our banking industry, people with no college coaching experience shouldn't critique Dodge, people that have never run a pizza chain shouldn't tell RV how to do his AD duties etc.

[mad dog]

More than you would imagine. Quantity of dope isn't a hard/fast rule for whether or not violence will occur. Verbal arguments preceding the shooting, overly nervous participants in the deal, robbery gone bad, the list goes on as to why someone might get shot in a drug deal.

The main point, the thesis if you will, is that I find it amusing you speak of drug trafficking as if your knowledge stretches further that what you've seen on film or read in the metro section. More importantly, it's sad that conjecture is often taken as gospel in these situations when little to no facts are known.

Sig-worthy.

so basically you are saying that people that don't have a background in finance shouldn't have an opionion on our banking industry, people with no college coaching experience shouldn't critique Dodge, people that have never run a pizza chain shouldn't tell RV how to do his AD duties etc.

I think Emmitt's point is not that opinions are wrong, but that uninformed opinions have a high frequency of inaccuracy. You can have an opinion on the banking industry, but if that opinion is based on the incorrect assumption that all commerce is organized by Klingons, your opinion is very likely inaccurate as compared to those of us who know it is regulated by a clone army of Richard Nixons.

[SilverEagle]

so basically you are saying that people that don't have a background in finance shouldn't have an opionion on our banking industry, people with no college coaching experience shouldn't critique Dodge, people that have never run a pizza chain shouldn't tell RV how to do his AD duties etc.

.............

[filmerj]

I must have misread. I thought it was the sister who told the police about the pot deal.

My bad, I misread.

[Mean Green 93-98]

More than you would imagine.

Umm, that really didn't answer his question. You rake Flyer over the coals for making a statement that is obvious on the face of it. If it's not correct, can you actually provide evidence otherwise, or just slightly more well-informed conjecture?

[greenminer]

Are we splitting hairs here?

[Monkeypox]

Umm, that really didn't answer his question. You rake Flyer over the coals for making a statement that is obvious on the face of it. If it's not correct, can you actually provide evidence otherwise, or just slightly more well-informed conjecture?

Emmitt's a cop, as is my brother. He knows. People die over much dumber sh*t than a quarter bag. I hear the stories all the time. No, it's not Reefer Madness, but there's not a lot of upstanding citizens hanging out with pot dealers. Doesn't mean you're a crazed criminal for smoking pot or buying pot or selling pot. This is a thing I also have personal perspective on, outside of my brother's experience.

[Mean Green 93-98]

People die over much dumber sh*t than a quarter bag. I hear the stories all the time.

We all understand this. Emmitt had taken a poster to task because he suggested murder usually did not take place in those situations.

Yes, but not usually for small-time pot deals.

True or false? I don't care if someone is the Dallas chief of police, if he can't show me evidence otherwise, I will continue to believe that murder is rare when it is a small-time marijuana deal.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Emmitt's a cop, as is my brother. He knows. People die over much dumber sh*t than a quarter bag. I hear the stories all the time. No, it's not Reefer Madness, but there's not a lot of upstanding citizens hanging out with pot dealers. Doesn't mean you're a crazed criminal for smoking pot or buying pot or selling pot. This is a thing I also have personal perspective on, outside of my brother's experience.

--- The problem here is many are thinking most people are like themselves.... a lot of people aren't even close.... Emmitt is absolutely right... as is MonkeyPox... Lots of violence (even murder) occurs over issues that most of us think is totally illogical. Besides people who aren't entirely "sober" (whatever chemical, includes alcohol) sometimes will do things they would never do normally. That may or may not have been the situation here, and it could have been a large amount or very little. .

-- I speak from the experience of many years which includes 40 years in education of all sorts of people including future murderers and having several friends in law enforcement plus some working in the court system (lawyers/judges).

[oldguystudent]

Two expressed probabilities we're trying to disprove:

1: Other substances were involved

2: It was a LOT of marijuana

Tough stats to find. From whitehousedrugpolicy.gov, I found the following:

From 1991-1998, an average of 5.35% of all murders were drug related. Drug related is defined as those murders that occurred specifically during a narcotics felony, such as drug trafficking or manufacturing.

In 1991, 3% of federal prisoners and 5% of state prisoners who had committed murder did so to obtain money to buy drugs.

What is not delineated in these statistics are:

1: Of all drug related crimes, what percentage are marijuana related.

2: Of all marijuana related crimes, what amounts were involved.

Nothing proven or disproven so far

Next up, from a report from the USDOJ on marijuana in Washington DC:

The level of violence associated with the distribution of marijuana in D.C. has increased over the last decade, as cocaine and heroin distributors have started to sell marijuana along with other drugs at open-air markets. The level of violence is equivalent to that associated with the distribution of cocaine or heroin. Law enforcement sources attribute much of the District's high crime rate to the distribution of marijuana, which is often the principle source of revenue for crews. According to the NDIC National Gang Survey 2000, at least 28 crews in D.C. distribute marijuana along with other illicit drugs and often commit violent crimes. (See text box.) The Metropolitan Police Department reports that crews frequently commit assaults, automobile thefts, drive-by shootings, homicides, and are involved in black-market weapons distribution.

Direct correlation to other substances and increased violence in the DC area.

However, here and here are actual news stories of murders over small quantities of marijuana. One in 2007 in the UK and one in 2008 in Toronto.

I'm honestly not searching to support one side or the other. I can't find any definitive answers one way or the other. I do, however, somewhat resent the comment that those of us who made the conjectures listed are merely taking our thoughts from watching CSI. I would also like to point out that even for law enforcement officers, anecdote does not equate to evidence or data when trying to look at the bigger picture.

My only conclusion is that marijuana related murder does happen in cases of both small and large quantities, but the ratio of those two cannot be determined.

Finally, for those who support continued prohibition, check this out:

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---This rather difficult to believe but I once taught a class that had 5 members that were later charged with murder and two more were murder victims. One of them was charged with shooting his wife... the rest... all involved drugs. I never had another class even close to that one.

--- Also hard to believe today... I graduated from UNT (NTSU) in '66. I never saw anyone use drugs nor was I aware of anyone that did (we left our doors unlocked most the time also) . When I went back in '70 to work on a Masters... it was a totally different world. It was everywhere and you better lock everything up. The above graph about murder demonstrates the results of what I stated.

Edited April 2, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[KingDL1]

I agree with flyer but obviously it can happen, I have been unfortunate enough to know a few shady friends that were killed and in those cases it was over lots money being owed on drugs or for stronger substances then marijuana. But I will also agree with those that anything can happen. The details of few I knew came out slowly, one of my classmates in High School at Jesuit was killed and set up like a suicide. Later it was found out he was working on getting out of the mess he had gotten into and was even re-enrolled in college at UTA. But his past caught up with him sad deal really nice guy that picked a Coke road to travel, foul play was figured out but no one was caught. The rest were guys I knew through UPS and well just bad things happen in the drug world.

[KingDL1]

Two expressed probabilities we're trying to disprove:

1: Other substances were involved

2: It was a LOT of marijuana

Tough stats to find. From whitehousedrugpolicy.gov, I found the following:

From 1991-1998, an average of 5.35% of all murders were drug related. Drug related is defined as those murders that occurred specifically during a narcotics felony, such as drug trafficking or manufacturing.

In 1991, 3% of federal prisoners and 5% of state prisoners who had committed murder did so to obtain money to buy drugs.

What is not delineated in these statistics are:

1: Of all drug related crimes, what percentage are marijuana related.

2: Of all marijuana related crimes, what amounts were involved.

Nothing proven or disproven so far

Next up, from a report from the USDOJ on marijuana in Washington DC:

Direct correlation to other substances and increased violence in the DC area.

However, here and here are actual news stories of murders over small quantities of marijuana. One in 2007 in the UK and one in 2008 in Toronto.

I'm honestly not searching to support one side or the other. I can't find any definitive answers one way or the other. I do, however, somewhat resent the comment that those of us who made the conjectures listed are merely taking our thoughts from watching CSI. I would also like to point out that even for law enforcement officers, anecdote does not equate to evidence or data when trying to look at the bigger picture.

My only conclusion is that marijuana related murder does happen in cases of both small and large quantities, but the ratio of those two cannot be determined.

Finally, for those who support continued prohibition, check this out:

This graph is an overwhelming reason for me to think drugs should be legalized.

I am in favor of legalizing drugs, though I am a strong advocate against the use of drugs. The money and lives cost because it is illegal really add up, and quite simply if a person wants drugs they can get them anyway. I would rather tax them, regulate them, and ensure they are what they are supposed to be. Plus if it was legal here I think we could keep more money in the country, and use some of the tax revenue to fund education and rehab programs. Its a war most don't want except those who make the most money out of it.

Edited April 2, 2009 by KingDL1

[H-towngreen]

Tough news to hear...although once it was told he was found in some random parking lot, I started thinking that this was prolly going to be something like this. Unfortunate.

Does it really matter if it's a small amount of pot or a large amount? He was selling illegal drugs. Bottom line. If he was going into Dallas to sell drugs then chances are that he was going with more than enough to make a joint or two.

[UNT90]

Violence can happen at any time. What doesn't happen is a guy from Dallas meeting a guy from Denton in Lewisvillle to buy a quarter ounce of weed. Like many have said, you can get a small amount of weed in any neighborhood. Makes no sense to make such a long drive for such a small amount.

My guess is that when all the details come out, this will be a sustantial amount of marihuana or other drugs will be invloved. But it's only a very well educated guess.

[LAZER]

I am willing to bet there was a great deal of money involved............ This was more about money then it was weed. Then again I do not know anything.....

[UNT90]

I am willing to bet there was a great deal of money involved............ This was more about money then it was weed. Then again I do not know anything.....

It was a drug deal, so a large amount of money = a large amount of drugs.

[UNTflyer]

More than you would imagine. Quantity of dope isn't a hard/fast rule for whether or not violence will occur. Verbal arguments preceding the shooting, overly nervous participants in the deal, robbery gone bad, the list goes on as to why someone might get shot in a drug deal.

The main point, the thesis if you will, is that I find it amusing you speak of drug trafficking as if your knowledge stretches further that what you've seen on film or read in the metro section. More importantly, it's sad that conjecture is often taken as gospel in these situations when little to no facts are known.

Personal experience, Emmitt.

Main Entry:

usu·al·ly

Pronunciation:

\yü-zh-wul-ly\

Function:

adjective

"found in ordinary practice or in the ordinary course of events"

Given that shootings are usually major news in any city, one does not need the insight of a police officer to read about a pot deal gone bad. Given that marijuana is the most common illegal drug sold in America, I stand by my assertion that small time pot deals do not USUALLY go bad and result in someone's murder.

If you are going to challenge this claim, please provide evidence other than your typical and arrogant response: "I'm a cop, and what would you know about it?"

Edited April 3, 2009 by UNTflyer

[UNTflyer]

Violence can happen at any time. What doesn't happen is a guy from Dallas meeting a guy from Denton in Lewisvillle to buy a quarter ounce of weed. Like many have said, you can get a small amount of weed in any neighborhood. Makes no sense to make such a long drive for such a small amount.

Not necessarily. Some people drive from Denton to Plano to buy an ounce of weed because they know and trust the person selling it. There is an advantage from buying from a known source... you're less likely to get ripped off or busted.