Lift Ban On Concealed Handguns On Campus?

[meangreendork]

He's making a government tyranny argument. Lets not get sidetracked with inflammatory material.

It seemed a bit disjointed. It seemed more like 2 instances of groups taking their rights to bear arms horrifically out of line, and then one instance of a situation that was badly timed and had equally bad timing in photography. I don't really think that Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians are examples of tyranny, just examples of the above issue AND government organizations being horrifically mismanaged and not so much outright evil.

That's really why it made little sense to me.

[Rudy]

Personally I stick with a baseball bat and a knife in my house. I do indeed know how to use both of them, and I believe they're safer to have in the house in case of prying kids and their neighbor friends.

No more dangerous than having kitchen knives laying around.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I feel in the heat of the moment, too many people will use the most powerful weapon they have at their immediate disposal. I'd prefer that to be something in the realm of a tire iron than a gun. The former gives me a much more sporting chance.

The best form of gun control in the home, and anywhere for that matter is education. Children are by nature curious. Unload a firearm and let them feel and hold it. Explainto them how they work and what happens if someone is shot. Stress the seriousness of shooting someone and being shot. Then keep the weapons locked, but easily accesible in an emergency situation. I have a safe in my closet but the key is nearby and hidden. Easily accessible if I need to acquire my duty weapon in a hurry.

I agree that in the heat of the moment, one will use the closest weapon they get their hands on. Just a quick question, if someone were coming at you with a brick, would you consider that gounds to shoot in self defense? A pipe? A knife?

For the home I like a 12-gauge shotgun, I have first hand seen how a criminal reacts to the cycle of a pump shotgun! I had simply amazing results, and sudden politeness.

Very good choice. id ise the pistol grip so it is easier to handle in the close quarter confines of a hall or doorway. Added effect, use a laser or a flashlight with a pressure switch.

Let me repeat myself:

Neither are guns, they are both inanimate objects. You probably teach your kids how to handle knives correctly, you'll probably teach how to handle the most powerful object most people will touch, the family car, and you can teach them firearms safety. My family taught me it.

Access to firearms doesn't cause violence in a society. Some, like the swiss, have much higher rates of firearm ownership, even FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS, and they have a tiny violent crime rate, some, like the British, have almost no firearm ownership, and have much higher violent crime rates than we do.

By your logic, federal and state prisons should be incredibly safe, because no arms of any kind are allowed, the stats don't back you up.

I guess the bottom line for me is I also feel in the heat of the moment people can be irrational, and if someone comes at me with a tire iron, I would like to have a firearm to defend myself with. If you aren't comfortable with firearms, thats great, don't own them, just don't infringe on my right to defend myself.

All aroud excellent post.

They have the neatest new little lazer sights for pistols. They attach to the sides of the pistol and allw you to shot at the lazer dot instead of using the sights, thus improving accuracy greatly. They are accurate to within an inch from 50 yards.

As a side benefit, I have spoken to several officers who have had to point a handgun with this lazer sight at a criminal. The pyscological effect is much like the rack of a shotgun when they see that red dot on thier very own center mass. A great new tool, and cost a reletively cheap $200 (ballpark).

Imagine how many stray rounds this would prevent in a live firefight situation.

Gagree

What is required for personal protection is an individual choice.

But, like the lady in the video said, if you were trying to protect your home in the LA riots, would you want a hand gun or an assault rifle?

Everything is situational

move forward a few years. LAPD had only shotguns and semi-auto pistols during the 1997 shootout. One of the robbers had homemade body arm that covered him chest to ankle. Both had true assault rifles that had been modified to fire on full automatic. And I believe that they had acquired all of their weapons illegally.

[oldguystudent]

just don't infringe on my right to defend myself.

I have no intention of doing so.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---For those who think we now don't have gun control.... Know anyone that owns a 50 cal. machine gun, anti-aircraft gun, anti-tank gun, or bazooka or for that matter any machine gun (legally).???? Even sawed off shotguns are prohibited. ... We have gun control... the debate really is "How much?" ... The NRA comments often amuse me.

--- If you think the guns that we have legal in the US is going to protect you against a oppressive government, you are kidding yourself..... just as Saddam though his large Army in the Gulf War was a match for the US forces.

--- Guns now are for sport and personal protection... not to protect us from a military. I oppose concealed guns on campus (I have seen too many semi-crazy or drunk students) . I don't have a problem with them being in cars locked up and unexposed ( I have at times, shotgun or rifle) . I have had law officials in my class and they sometimes had a gun with them but usually not, at least not exposed. No doubt they had one in their car.

Edited April 1, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Guest JohnDenver]

I have no intention of doing so.

Oh, I do. Cerebus, you and I duel. At the admin building on Saturday. Then after you draw your weapon and shoot yourself on accident, I will buy your wife a beer.

Most weapons are used in suicides and accidents. Which, I don't have a problem with. Therefore, maybe gun control should decreased, so the morons will kill themselves and their children. Too far? I jest.

I love you Cerebus. Though I am serious about a duel.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Duel...!!! How about almost fresh cow patties at two paces...??

[Rudy]

Oh, I do. Cerebus, you and I duel. At the admin building on Saturday. Then after you draw your weapon and shoot yourself on accident, I will buy your wife a beer.

Most weapons are used in suicides and accidents. Which, I don't have a problem with. Therefore, maybe gun control should decreased, so the morons will kill themselves and their children. Too far? I jest.

I love you Cerebus. Though I am serious about a duel.

Better use water guns. Either that or those cool proton guns they had when I was a kid. First one to get hit four times gets that annoying static sound.

[Cerebus]

---For those who think we now don't have gun control.... Know anyone that owns a 50 cal. machine gun, anti-aircraft gun, anti-tank gun, or bazooka or for that matter any machine gun (legally).???? Even sawed off shotguns are prohibited. ... We have gun control... the debate really is "How much?" ... The NRA comments often amuse me.

The Brady campaign comments often amuse me, wait, I meant enrage. Kinda picky about that whole.. constitutional rights thing.

BTW: I can go out and by a .50 cal today, and if I had the money laying around, I could go fill out the paperwork and have a fully automatic machine gun within a couple months, it's just a $200 tax stamp. Same thing with a saw off shot gun, same thing with a silencer.

In fact, I know a couple people on the board who have automatic weapons. I don't lose any sleep over it.

--- If you think the guns that we have legal in the US is going to protect you against a oppressive government, you are kidding yourself..... just as Saddam though his large Army in the Gulf War was a match for the US forces.

Someone should tell that to the Iraqis, or the Afghanis, or the Vietnamese. In fact, could you hurry and tell the first two, when they all realize how futile it us maybe my cousins can come home.

--- Guns now are for sport and personal protection... not to protect us from a military. I oppose concealed guns on campus (I have seen too many semi-crazy or drunk students) . I don't have a problem with them being in cars locked up and unexposed ( I have at times, shotgun or rifle) . I have had law officials in my class and they sometimes had a gun with them but usually not, at least not exposed. No doubt they had one in their car.

You are flat out wrong. Wish I could sugar coat that, but I can't. Implying that the Second Amendment now means something different than it originally did, is the equivalent of saying "Speak out against the government? No, the first amendment is NOW for freely discussing american idol".

America has the greatest government is world history, mainly because of the Constitution and it's people will to enforce it.

[Cerebus]

I love you Cerebus. Though I am serious about a duel.

I have waited, for this day for so long.

We should just do it in OKC though, I think its legal there.

[oldguystudent]

We should just do it in OKC though, I think its legal there.

I looked that up. Illegal in Oklahoma, but no statutory prohibition in Louisiana! You two duel, the rest of us will bet on the outcome in the riverboats! It's a win-win!

[Cerebus]

I looked that up. Illegal in Oklahoma, but no statutory prohibition in Louisiana! You two duel, the rest of us will bet on the outcome in the riverboats! It's a win-win!

AS long as part of the proceeds go to a scholarship fund.

[Censored by Laurie]

In fact, I know a couple people on the board who have automatic weapons. I don't lose any sleep over it.

KRAM1 isn't one, right?

I don't want my statements earlier to be mis-interpretted. I could really care less if you keep a gun in your home...its just something that I'll never own.

The problem for me is when guns become the 4th item a person has to remember to bring with them when leaving the house, after their keys, wallet and cell. The logic behind increasing the number of guns being carried, legally or illegally, and how this somehow makes us safer seems very flawed to me. My assumption is that the idea is that if bad guy has a gun, good guy could shoot bad guy to keep him from doing bad things? The problem with that is it assumes good guy is quicker, more poised, assertive and a better shot...otherwise a bad situation could quickly turn tragic.

I also keep seeing "education" being tossed around as justification...that guns are safe with proper education. That may be well and true, but with good drivers education cars are safe, yet there are hundreds of accidents everyday...with good sex education bumping uglies is safe, yet STDs and fun babies abound. Cerebus, you seem very educated about your firearm...and if I saw you at a tailgate and you showed me you glock I probably wouldn't be terribly freaked out. But, most people aren't you...putting a gun in the hand of a small town, meth-mouthed 22 year old, and giving him a liscense for said weapon...which for many arrogantly equates to expertice...that does freak me out.

[UNT90]

KRAM1 isn't one, right?

I don't want my statements earlier to be mis-interpretted. I could really care less if you keep a gun in your home...its just something that I'll never own.

The problem for me is when guns become the 4th item a person has to remember to bring with them when leaving the house, after their keys, wallet and cell. The logic behind increasing the number of guns being carried, legally or illegally, and how this somehow makes us safer seems very flawed to me. My assumption is that the idea is that if bad guy has a gun, good guy could shoot bad guy to keep him from doing bad things? The problem with that is it assumes good guy is quicker, more poised, assertive and a better shot...otherwise a bad situation could quickly turn tragic.

I also keep seeing "education" being tossed around as justification...that guns are safe with proper education. That may be well and true, but with good drivers education cars are safe, yet there are hundreds of accidents everyday...with good sex education bumping uglies is safe, yet STDs and fun babies abound. Cerebus, you seem very educated about your firearm...and if I saw you at a tailgate and you showed me you glock I probably wouldn't be terribly freaked out. But, most people aren't you...putting a gun in the hand of a small town, meth-mouthed 22 year old, and giving him a liscense for said weapon...which for many arrogantly equates to expertice...that does freak me out.

This is just about always the case. Bad guy's training probably comes from playstation and is most likely to hold the gun sideways, while good guy, who is a responsible member of society, has attended training on how to use a firearm properly and practiced with said firearm to ensure that he is familiar with the firearm and can hit what he is aiming at.

A little story. There was a convienance store by previous house. This store kept getting robbed. The owner finally got fed up and encouraged his store employees to OPENLY carry firearms while working. Two years later, no armed robberies and a huge decrease in theft from the store. Not one problem with the clerks and the guns.

I prefer concealed carry for the general public, but definitly think some businesses, like convienance stores, benefit from having thier staff carry weapons openly.

Notice I say previous house. This is why I moved to Granbury.

Edited April 1, 2009 by UNT90

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

You mean illegally? Is that how we should exercise our freedom of speech and religion also?

If I had no choice, then yes, I would practice my religion illegally. My point is that by the time you feel you need to defend yourself from the government, you're not gonna give a rat's a** about that government's gun laws.

I would love to hear your reason why one type of firearm should be allowed and not another. Seriously.

I can give you an example...Shotguns should be allowed because they are great sporting guns and great for home defense (I agree with King DL's post about the shotgun effect). I think rocket launchers should not be allowed because the can blow up small houses.

You realize that there are many many people who do not want you to have ANY ability to own a firearm?

Yes...did I give the impression that I did not know this? I probably disagree more with those people than I do with you.

Also, I would love to hear your explanation of what an assault weapon is. Seriously.

My bad...I didn't get specific enough...gun talk is not my forte. When I think of assault weapons, I tend to think of fully automatic weapons (M-16 style). That's fine if you feel they are ok...we can agree to disagree.

Also, why some animals are more equal than others. I am fascinated by that one.

Uh...venison is tastier than cat meat...not really sure where this came from. I guess I'm facinated too!

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

This is just about always the case. Bad guy's training probably comes from playstation and is most likely to hold the gun sideways, while good guy, who is a responsible member of society, has attended training on how to use a firearm properly and practiced with said firearm to ensure that he is familiar with the firearm and can hit what he is aiming at.

A little story. There was a convienance store by previous house. This store kept getting robbed. The owner finally got fed up and encouraged his store employees to OPENLY carry firearms while working. Two years later, no armed robberies and a huge decrease in theft from the store. Not one problem with the clerks and the guns.

I prefer concealed carry for the general public, but definitly think some businesses, like convienance stores, benefit from having thier staff carry weapons openly.

Agree with this...also liked your idea about the laser sight on the pistol. It could give a novice like me a huge advantage in a (God forbid) home gunfight

[Cerebus]

KRAM1 isn't one, right?

He owns a MIRV.

The logic behind increasing the number of guns being carried, legally or illegally, and how this somehow makes us safer seems very flawed to me.

What's your counter argument? Reducing the number of guns carried by law abiding citizens? You can never guarantee exclusivity of force, bad people will arm themselves. It makes no sense to disarm the good.

My assumption is that the idea is that if bad guy has a gun, good guy could shoot bad guy to keep him from doing bad things? The problem with that is it assumes good guy is quicker, more poised, assertive and a better shot...otherwise a bad situation could quickly turn tragic.

Wow, I guess police officers better not carry weapons either, things could get tragic otherwise.

I also keep seeing "education" being tossed around as justification...that guns are safe with proper education. That may be well and true, but with good drivers education cars are safe, yet there are hundreds of accidents everyday...with good sex education bumping uglies is safe, yet STDs and fun babies abound. Cerebus, you seem very educated about your firearm...and if I saw you at a tailgate and you showed me you glock I probably wouldn't be terribly freaked out. But, most people aren't you...putting a gun in the hand of a small town, meth-mouthed 22 year old, and giving him a liscense for said weapon...which for many arrogantly equates to expertice...that does freak me out.

So we should outlaw cars? Should we outlaw premarital sex? If you can't outlaw or control those, why do you think you can somehow restrict weapons from bad people? Do you realize that in Mexico there is no gun ownership rights, at all, and yet the criminals kill thousands of people every year? What sense does that make. Study after study has proven that gun restriction do not increase violent crime, in fact if there is any measurable impact, its for MORE crime.

I doubt that 22 year old meth mouth is going to say "dang, i was going to rob people with this here gun, but now its illegal". If some 22 year old meth mouth is going to rob/kill me or rape my wife, I would like to have the very best chance to defend myself.

PS: That 22 year old meth mouth PROBABLY already has an extensive record, which makes him ineligible to receive a license to carry a weapon, even if, for some strange reason he decided to ask the state if he can carry a weapon to commit crimes.

[Cerebus]

If I had no choice, then yes, I would practice my religion illegally. My point is that by the time you feel you need to defend yourself from the government, you're not gonna give a rat's a** about that government's gun laws.

According to Jefferson, one of your primary responsibilities as a citizen is to be ready and able to defend yourself at all times from the government.

I can give you an example...Shotguns should be allowed because they are great sporting guns and great for home defense (I agree with King DL's post about the shotgun effect). I think rocket launchers should not be allowed because the can blow up small houses.

I am not publicly stating my support for a Pro Rocket Launcher agenda. But did you realize until 1934 there was really no federal regulation on any weapons. Somehow, America seemed to function just fine for 150 years before congress was able to come and save it. We all know what and awesome, level headed, and far sighted job congress seems to do.

My bad...I didn't get specific enough...gun talk is not my forte. When I think of assault weapons, I tend to think of fully automatic weapons (M-16 style). That's fine if you feel they are ok...we can agree to disagree.

I want to point out that most people don't really know what an assault weapon is, but will be happy to support an assault weapon ban. An "assault weapon", as used by anti gun people, does not include fully automatic weapons, those are already heavily restricted by the 1934 National Firearms Act. What they are talking about are rifles that look like rifles that can fire full auto. But they are acually semi auto, 1 pull of the trigger makes one bullet come out.

I will go on the record and say I don't have any problems with someone owning a FA weapon, it is legal to do so, but there is a ton of federal paperwork, checks, and you county sheriff or police chief has to sign off on it. They are also extremely expensive, since congress ruled people can only own FA weapons made before 1986. Demand exceeds supply.

One of the funnest afternoons I ever had was getting to shoot the FA MP5 that a Louisiana State SWAT team member had. Much fun.

Uh...venison is tastier than cat meat...not really sure where this came from. I guess I'm facinated too!

Sorry for the confusion. My line was from Animal Farm. Some animals are more equal than others. You said some citizens (police officers) could own certain weapons, but not other citizens. I just wanted to know what made them more equal.

[UNT90]

Just a question. How many of those opposed to gun ownership or concealed carry laws have any experience with firearms (been to a firearms familiarity class, firearms range session, have actually fired a handgun or other firearm, or actually own a weapon)?

It's been my experience that most people opposed to the 2nd amendment and concealed carry laws are extremely ignorant (dictionary definition) of anything pertaining to firearms.

Just about any street cop (not a police chief...read-politician, and certainly not some FBI Dweeb) will tell you that he favors conceal carry. They will also tell you that they can't guarentee your safety.

[greenminer]

good stuff in here.

I never liked guns. I always thought a ban would be the only way to deal with it, and was completely on CBL's side of things...until my 'rents and sister experienced a home invasion. I still don't like them, but I have an appreciation for the need.

A couple thoughts:

All the education in the world doesn't prevent the accidents. That's why they are called accidents. But an accident with a knife is not likely to mean death as much as an accident with a gun:

"Kid accidentally slits wrist" or "Brother cuts sister's throat in a harmless game of tag." are not likely to turn up as headlines anytime soon. {I'm already counting down the minutes until the counterpoint includes a link for one such real life incident to try and prove my point wrong.]

I think the need to own a gun by a good, law abiding civilian boils down to our basic instinct to survive. This issue will never go away as long as we are discussing a government's role in controlling/limiting a fundamental value/instinct we are born with.

I don't own one now and won't anytime soon, but it weighs heavily on my mind. Besides, a bat and a knife are hella cheaper anyways.

"Guns don't kill people, people do."

"I think the gun helps."

"BANG BANG! RAT TAT TAT!!"

Edited April 1, 2009 by greenminer

[UNT90]

good stuff in here.

I never liked guns. I always thought a ban would be the only way to deal with it, and was completely on CBL's side of things...until my 'rents and sister experienced a home invasion. I still don't like them, but I have an appreciation for the need.

A couple thoughts:

All the education in the world doesn't prevent the accidents. That's why they are called accidents. But an accident with a knife is not likely to mean death as much as an accident with a gun:

"Kid accidentally slits wrist" or "Brother cuts sister's throat in a harmless game of tag." are not likely to turn up as headlines anytime soon. {I'm already counting down the minutes until the counterpoint includes a link for one such real life incident to try and prove my point wrong.]

I think the need to own a gun by a good, law abiding civilian boils down to our basic instinct to survive. This issue will never go away as long as we are discussing a government's role in controlling/limiting a fundamental value/instinct we are born with.

I don't own one now and won't anytime soon, but it weighs heavily on my mind. Besides, a bat and a knife are hella cheaper anyways.

"Guns don't kill people, people do."

"I think the gun helps."

"BANG BANG! RAT TAT TAT!!"

Good post, except for the highlighted portion. Under that same logic, we would raise the driving age to 25 due to the amount of accidents that kill teen and early 20s drivers. Same irresponsibility, just a different mechanical tool used to inflict the injury.

Do a comparison of how many teen drivers or passengers in cars driven by teens are killed each year compared to all deaths by accidental discharge of firearms, and I think you'll quickly find that this argument is moot.

Don't mean to pick on you, but you are a good example of someone with no experience with guns having preconveived notions about firearm ownership. I can't blame you, as these notions have been pounded into your head by the anti-firearm media for the last 20 years.

Your half way there. Come on over.

Edited April 1, 2009 by UNT90

[KRAM1]

KRAM1 isn't one, right?

I don't want my statements earlier to be mis-interpretted. I could really care less if you keep a gun in your home...its just something that I'll never own.

The problem for me is when guns become the 4th item a person has to remember to bring with them when leaving the house, after their keys, wallet and cell. The logic behind increasing the number of guns being carried, legally or illegally, and how this somehow makes us safer seems very flawed to me. My assumption is that the idea is that if bad guy has a gun, good guy could shoot bad guy to keep him from doing bad things? The problem with that is it assumes good guy is quicker, more poised, assertive and a better shot...otherwise a bad situation could quickly turn tragic.

I also keep seeing "education" being tossed around as justification...that guns are safe with proper education. That may be well and true, but with good drivers education cars are safe, yet there are hundreds of accidents everyday...with good sex education bumping uglies is safe, yet STDs and fun babies abound. Cerebus, you seem very educated about your firearm...and if I saw you at a tailgate and you showed me you glock I probably wouldn't be terribly freaked out. But, most people aren't you...putting a gun in the hand of a small town, meth-mouthed 22 year old, and giving him a liscense for said weapon...which for many arrogantly equates to expertice...that does freak me out.

NOPE...don't carry. But, I am in 100% favor of the conceled handgun license. In fact, I don't own a gun of any kind. Don't want my bride getting mad at me and going off the deep end! OK, just kidding with that...I hope. While I am interested in seeing where this issue goes, and would not get too fired up if it passes, I am not overly in favor of handguns/guns on college campuses to begin with. However, I can't help but wonder what would have happened at Va Tech had a couple of students been "packing heat".

[UNT90]

KRAM1 isn't one, right?

I don't want my statements earlier to be mis-interpretted. I could really care less if you keep a gun in your home...its just something that I'll never own.

The problem for me is when guns become the 4th item a person has to remember to bring with them when leaving the house, after their keys, wallet and cell. The logic behind increasing the number of guns being carried, legally or illegally, and how this somehow makes us safer seems very flawed to me. My assumption is that the idea is that if bad guy has a gun, good guy could shoot bad guy to keep him from doing bad things? The problem with that is it assumes good guy is quicker, more poised, assertive and a better shot...otherwise a bad situation could quickly turn tragic.

I also keep seeing "education" being tossed around as justification...that guns are safe with proper education. That may be well and true, but with good drivers education cars are safe, yet there are hundreds of accidents everyday...with good sex education bumping uglies is safe, yet STDs and fun babies abound. Cerebus, you seem very educated about your firearm...and if I saw you at a tailgate and you showed me you glock I probably wouldn't be terribly freaked out. But, most people aren't you...putting a gun in the hand of a small town, meth-mouthed 22 year old, and giving him a liscense for said weapon...which for many arrogantly equates to expertice...that does freak me out.

So, your saying we should outlaw these highlighted activities? Or, are you saying you are in favor of conceal carry?

Any other point of view makes this statement a walking contradiction.

Edited April 1, 2009 by UNT90

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

Your half way there. Come on over.

While searching for the above image, I also found this gem:

Wonder if he's packin' heat in the storage compartment

Edited April 1, 2009 by BeanCounterGrad'03

[UNT90]

While searching for the above image, I also found this gem:

Darth Vader on a scooter

Wonder if he's packin' heat in the storage compartment

Good Stuff.

But this is also the tact taken by those on the wrong end of an issue. Resort to comedy when you have no point and know the argument is lost.

***Edit*** Disregard, I thought you were someone else in this argument. But I'll leave it to illustrate the point

Edited April 1, 2009 by UNT90

[Coffee and TV]

I love me some (libertarian) John Stossel:

j_YTM_eAWnQ

Please, if you are going to watch any video in this thread, THIS IS THE ONE TO WATCH.

I have read some of your arguments, I will watch some of your videos, and I will respect your point of view. But for christ's sake DO NOT expect me to watch anything by that fraud John Stossel. Or the lunatic that is Alan Keyes.