Nfl Player Pulled Over Outside Hospital While Rushing To Be With Dying

oldguystudent · March 30, 2009

So a question for Emmitt and Rudy. What are the chances Powell gets hired by another PD if Dallas lets him go?

H-towngreen · March 30, 2009

I realize this was just one instance, but it brings to question why someone so uncaring is in the job of public service.

Like in most jobs it only takes one instance.

UNT_playmaker · March 30, 2009

So a question for Emmitt and Rudy. What are the chances Powell gets hired by another PD if Dallas lets him go?

Looks like the City of Denton PD is going to have an immediate job opening.... Powell should take a look at Denton.

http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...0.84c4b6e9.html

Weird Stories, man.....

Rudy · March 30, 2009

First of all, its pretty close minded to just say "I hope he deosn't get hired someone else." What happened to chaning yourself and making yourself a better person? I dont think he should be terminated. Send him to some training classes and give him a chance to improve himself. Thank God its not you making the decision. Oh, and thats a great job labeling someone you do not even know, or have no clue what its like to be in his shoes. Second, I think he would have grounds for a suit based on the fact that kunkle publicly crucified Powell before an investigation was even started. He should have come out and said no comment or decision will be made until the investigation is completed. Now on top of it, the DMN has published the story regarding Zach Thomas' wife, solely on the intent to slander Powll. This story has NOTHING to do with the Moats story.

Now as to the question if another department will hire Powell. I know this will disappoint some of you, but yes, he can get hired elsewhere. First of all, many departments and officers agree with myself and Emmitt in the fact that the only things that Powell did wrong was his attitude and lack of compassion. These things can be corrected with training and practice. Many departments will disagree with the way kunkle is handling the situation and hanging his officer out to dry. He will get a second chance if he chooses that he wants one.

UNT90 · March 30, 2009

So a question for Emmitt and Rudy. What are the chances Powell gets hired by another PD if Dallas lets him go?

Everyone needs to remember that Kunkle does not have the final word in the employment of Officer Powell. Kunkle can fire him, but the civil service review board (or whatever they call it in Dallas) can review the discipline at the officer's request and reinstate the officer with back pay. This WILL happen in this case, if Officer Powell chooses to appeal.

If you don't believe me, google some of the recent reinstatements from Kunkle firings. I think you will find that the allegations made against those officers were much more serious than this incident with Officer Powell.

I did see where Officer Powell issued a public apology, which, unless his attorney has already struck a deal with the department, is not very wise.

What about the conduct of the Plano Officer? Say and do nothing when you are in a position to change the outcome of the event, then run crying to your supervisor 2 days later? If he didn't like the way Officer Powell was handling the situation, he should have pulled Powell aside and told Powell so to his face. This could have averted the whole incident. Not very couragous to do nothing and then, 2 days later, run crying to a supervisor.

The Plano Officer was on scene 1 minute into the stop.

Let my roasting begin...

gangrene · March 30, 2009

Looks like the City of Denton PD is going to have an immediate job opening.... Powell should take a look at Denton.
http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedcontent/dws/...0.84c4b6e9.html
Weird Stories, man.....

I also saw an ad for a UNT police officer (with a starting salary of up to $52K+) in the Dallas Morning News the other day.

oldguystudent · March 30, 2009

I also saw an ad for a UNT police officer (with a starting salary of up to $52K+) in the Dallas Morning News the other day.

Cool. An officer who takes his job as seriously as Powell does could bring in millions for the university in parking fines. (tongue in cheek boys, settle down)

Anyhoo, found this stat on Kunkle firings:

Since David Kunkle became Dallas police chief nearly five years ago, 12 of his 62 firings have been reversed.

UNT90 · March 30, 2009

Cool. An officer who takes his job as seriously as Powell does could bring in millions for the university in parking fines. (tongue in cheek boys, settle down)
Anyhoo, found this stat on Kunkle firings:

Remember, some of his firings have not completed the appeals process yet. Also need to research how many chose not to appeal or negotiated a settlement (alowed to retire). The city makes it extremely unpleasant for the officer during the appeals process.

March 30, 2009

Remember, some of his firings have not completed the appeals process yet. Also need to research how many chose not to appeal or negotiated a settlement (alowed to retire). The city makes it extremely unpleasant for the officer during the appeals process.

Sounds like the union is too strong. I support people being fired for being a-holes.

If I am in the line at the airport and the ticket agent yells at customers, holds them up and makes them miss their flight to their father's funeral... I support them getting canned.

It isn't like police are God's chosen people. The same employment rules should apply. If you treat the customer terribly, you should get canned.

UNT90 · March 30, 2009

Sounds like the union is too strong. I support people being fired for being a-holes.
If I am in the line at the airport and the ticket agent yells at customers, holds them up and makes them miss their flight to their father's funeral... I support them getting canned.
It isn't like police are God's chosen people. The same employment rules should apply. If you treat the customer terribly, you should get canned.

This isn't personal. I'm commenting on the legal process, not right and wrong. Don't confuse the two.

What if the ticket agent had been told by her boss that anyone who didn't have two forms of ID doesn't get on the plane, no exceptions, and that this is publicized company policy, and then this person shows up with only one form of ID. Do you risk discipline and possible termination to do the right thing? This is the closest comparison I can make between the vastly different professions.

Saying the same employment rules should apply to police officers and airline ticket agents shows your lack of understanding of how the police profession works.

Anytime force is used, the "customer is treated terribly." This is not an office job.

Edited March 30, 2009 by UNT90

Rudy · March 30, 2009

If I am in the line at the airport and the ticket agent yells at customers, holds them up and makes them miss their flight to their father's funeral... I support them getting canned.

Really? Do you seriously want to run with this analogy? I'll give you a mulligan if you'd like to try again.

March 31, 2009

Really? Do you seriously want to run with this analogy? I'll give you a mulligan if you'd like to try again.

Yes, I will run with that analogy. Go for it..

March 31, 2009

This isn't personal. I'm commenting on the legal process, not right and wrong. Don't confuse the two.
What if the ticket agent had been told by her boss that anyone who didn't have two forms of ID doesn't get on the plane, no exceptions, and that this is publicized company policy, and then this person shows up with only one form of ID. Do you risk discipline and possible termination to do the right thing? This is the closest comparison I can make between the vastly different professions.
Saying the same employment rules should apply to police officers and airline ticket agents shows your lack of understanding of how the police profession works.
Anytime force is used, the "customer is treated terribly." This is not an office job.

Oh, I get it. Since I have never worked as a cop, I certainly can't comprehend it. Much like I never play college football, so I can't comment. Gotcha.

It isn't true that anytime force is used that the customer is treated terribly. Simply not true.

And your running with the lack of imagination on how a ticket agent can hold up a person, go on a power trip and be an a-hole in the process -- shows a lack of understanding what it is to be a ticket agent

What if you are on vacation, have an ID, but it get left out in the sun too long while sleeping and gets melted a bit. Now it looks suspicious.. and instead of taking your explanation and hearing your pleas to make your father's funeral, he calls in national guard to inspect your luggage, persons, all on some power trip. All while this happens, lectures you on how you should always be prepared for emergency funerals and have your ID in a safe location, blah blah. All while this happens, your plane leaves and you miss the funeral. Oh no! Can something like that really happen?

UNT90 · March 31, 2009

Oh, I get it. Since I have never worked as a cop, I certainly can't comprehend it. Much like I never play college football, so I can't comment. Gotcha.
It isn't true that anytime force is used that the customer is treated terribly. Simply not true.
And your running with the lack of imagination on how a ticket agent can hold up a person on a flight shows a lack of understanding what it is to be a ticket agent
What if you are on vacation, have an ID, but it get left out in the sun too long while sleeping and gets melted a bit. Now it looks suspicious.. and instead of taking your explanation and calls in national guard to inspect your luggage, persons, all on some power trip. All while this happens, your plane leaves and you miss the funeral. Oh no! Can something like that really happen?

Sigh...it's not because you never worked as an officer, but because of what you have written on here.

The family members of a criminal justifiably shot and killed by an officer almost always thinks that thier dead relative has been treated unfairly. Wouldn't you? Anyone who has ever been pepper sprayed or tasered would call that a terrible experience.

I did see where Moats said on TV that he just wanted the officer to walk up to the room with him while issuing him the citation. Too bad Moats or the officer didn't offer this solution on the scene. Just goes to show how easy it is to second guess your actions after the fact. Both were in a head butting contest.

We will just have to agree to disagree, as this is giving me tired head.

Cerebus · March 31, 2009

I did see where Moats said on TV that he just wanted the officer to walk up to the room with him while issuing him the citation. Too bad Moats or the officer didn't offer this solution on the scene. Just goes to show how easy it is to second guess your actions after the fact. Both were in a head butting contest.
We will just have to agree to disagree, as this is giving me tired head.

YES, Exactly.

The problem is that Powell is an OFFICER OF THE LAW and has been granted, by the public, special rights and powers, and therefore, needs to be hold himself to a higher standard, and be held to that higher standard by others.

I have no problem with Powell pulling them over, or drawing and pointing his sidearm, or having skepticism of Moats explanation. NONE.

Where the problem comes in is his attitude after nursing staff and another officer try to show him the proper and humane path and he refuses it. He obviously, at that point, had decided to butt heads with Moats and show him who is boss.

That is the wrong mindset for a police officer to have. He needs to be taught the proper way to respond. Now, is he a lost cause, is he just someone who can't handle these situations? She he be fired or should he be put on other duties as he takes more training? I'll leave that up to his superiors, they seem to understand what the problem is.

UNT90 · March 31, 2009

YES, Exactly.
The problem is that Powell is an OFFICER OF THE LAW and has been granted, by the public, special rights and powers, and therefore, needs to be hold himself to a higher standard, and be held to that higher standard by others.
I have no problem with Powell pulling them over, or drawing and pointing his sidearm, or having skepticism of Moats explanation. NONE.
Where the problem comes in is his attitude after nursing staff and another officer try to show him the proper and humane path and he refuses it. He obviously, at that point, had decided to butt heads with Moats and show him who is boss.
That is the wrong mindset for a police officer to have. He needs to be taught the proper way to respond. Now, is he a lost cause, is he just someone who can't handle these situations? She he be fired or should he be put on other duties as he takes more training? I'll leave that up to his superiors, they seem to understand what the problem is.

I agree with you, except for the part about the 2nd officer, who I think could have done a WHOLE lot more to remedy the situation. The second officer never indicated that he thought the situation should be handled differently, he only repeated what the nurse said. If he would have pulled Powell aside and suggested that Powell handle the situation differently, we may not be having this discussion. But to say and do nothing and then run crying to a supervisor two days later is really weak. If they had been members of the same department, the second officer would be in just as much trouble as the first, if not more, because he most likely would have been senior officer on scene (assuming this from the second officer's age). He should not get a pass.

You have to remember, although the officer shouldn't have got into a verbal standoff with Moats, there is no violation of policy in his actions. That was my point.

SilverEagle · March 31, 2009

First of all, its pretty close minded to just say "I hope he deosn't get hired someone else." What happened to chaning yourself and making yourself a better person? I dont think he should be terminated. Send him to some training classes and give him a chance to improve himself. Thank God its not you making the decision. Oh, and thats a great job labeling someone you do not even know, or have no clue what its like to be in his shoes. Second, I think he would have grounds for a suit based on the fact that kunkle publicly crucified Powell before an investigation was even started. He should have come out and said no comment or decision will be made until the investigation is completed. Now on top of it, the DMN has published the story regarding Zach Thomas' wife, solely on the intent to slander Powll. This story has NOTHING to do with the Moats story.
Now as to the question if another department will hire Powell. I know this will disappoint some of you, but yes, he can get hired elsewhere. First of all, many departments and officers agree with myself and Emmitt in the fact that the only things that Powell did wrong was his attitude and lack of compassion. These things can be corrected with training and practice. Many departments will disagree with the way kunkle is handling the situation and hanging his officer out to dry. He will get a second chance if he chooses that he wants one.

IMHO, attitude and compassion are not training issues per se. Although you can train a person to mask their bad attitude and/or their lack of compassion. You either have the right (or good) attitude to be a police officer, or you don't. You're either a compassionate person (compassionate enough to be an effective police officer) or you're not. You can send someone to training to change their attitude (or mask it from the general public) and/or be more compassionate (or appear to be). But unless there is someone with that officer in the field all the time to give them constant feedback about how they are doing, the training will wear off quickly. Especially when they find themselves under excessive stress; which is when everyone reverts back to what they are most comfortable with.

Before anyone can change their attitude, they most be movitated to do so, and ask for help . I think it is the weight watchers organization who says that it takes a MOTIVATED adult 27 days to change a habit (in their case, overeating..or poor eating choices). The critical word here is MOTIVATED. Officer Powell's "reported" first response to this unfortunate incident indicated to me that he was not motivated to change anything about his conduct as a peace officer.

Personally, I don't know how anyone could be trained to be more compassionate. If you are not already naturally wired for compassion, then it has to come from life experiences.

Rudy · March 31, 2009

The compassion part really is something you can train. If you are the type of cop who goes strictly by the book, that is your style. It doesnt mean you are wrong, or a bad cop, just an ahole. The attitude part can also be trained. Keeping your cool, learning when to say certain things, etc. They have an amazing amount of training classes and topics. Texas peace officers are required to take a certain number or training hours (40 I think) every two years. There is a chance for this officer or any officer to learn more compassion and to have a better attitude.

So, if there had been a warning issued to Officer Powell by dispatch, saying that the vehcile Moats was driving, or that Moats himself had a warrant (mistakes like that can happen), and Moats was detained, would you still be crucifying him like this. Perhaps that is why he was not immediately released to go into the hospital.

UNT90 · March 31, 2009

IMHO, attitude and compassion are not training issues per se. Although you can train a person to mask their bad attitude and/or their lack of compassion. You either have the right (or good) attitude to be a police officer, or you don't. You're either a compassionate person (compassionate enough to be an effective police officer) or you're not. You can send someone to training to change their attitude (or mask it from the general public) and/or be more compassionate (or appear to be). But unless there is someone with that officer in the field all the time to give them constant feedback about how they are doing, the training will wear off quickly. Especially when they find themselves under excessive stress; which is when everyone reverts back to what they are most comfortable with.
Before anyone can change their attitude, they most be movitated to do so, and ask for help . I think it is the weight watchers organization who says that it takes a MOTIVATED adult 27 days to change a habit (in their case, overeating..or poor eating choices). The critical word here is MOTIVATED. Officer Powell's "reported" first response to this unfortunate incident indicated to me that he was not motivated to change anything about his conduct as a peace officer.
Personally, I don't know how anyone could be trained to be more compassionate. If you are not already naturally wired for compassion, then it has to come from life experiences.

The word your looking for is disgression, not necessarily compassion. Disgression is learned through experience. Officers are trained to be very by-the-book nowadays because departments want to avoid civil liability. Officers learn disgression through experience. Some have it naturally, with some it takes time.

GreenMachine · March 31, 2009

Texas peace officers are required to take a certain number or training hours (40 I think) every two years.

That's only 2.5 full days per year of training, doesn't seem like very much.

UNT90 · March 31, 2009

That's only 2.5 full days per year of training, doesn't seem like very much.

Most large departments average double that a year. Those are minimum standards.

Edited March 31, 2009 by UNT90

Rudy · March 31, 2009

Its not necessarily the quantity, but the quality. And this doesnt include the extra training or classes you can take at police academies. I think Kilgore has alot of classes offered. But also remember, that many of these classes and training is done off duty. These are juggled between working 40 hours a week, off duty jobs, going to court to testify, time you have to spend doing paperwork off duty, and spending time with family and friends. Alot of people think that just because you arent in uniform driving a patrol car around, you have all this down time, which isnt necessarily the case.

Rudy · March 31, 2009

Most large departments average double that a year. Those are minimum standards.

Also, if you work for a small department, you arent just patrol, you are traffic, crime scene, investigators, etc. So add that time to your regular patrol, and many times any training you recieve, YOU have to find the time for it and YOU foot the bill for it.

GreenMachine · March 31, 2009

Its not necessarily the quantity, but the quality. And this doesnt include the extra training or classes you can take at police academies. I think Kilgore has alot of classes offered. But also remember, that many of these classes and training is done off duty. These are juggled between working 40 hours a week, off duty jobs, going to court to testify, time you have to spend doing paperwork off duty, and spending time with family and friends. Alot of people think that just because you arent in uniform driving a patrol car around, you have all this down time, which isnt necessarily the case.

I am a finance manager in the mortgage division of a large bank. Want to compare hours?

Rudy · March 31, 2009

I am a finance manager in the mortgage division of a large bank. Want to compare hours?

Oh, im sorry, I didnt realize I offended you. Sorry, I missed the part where I stated noone else put in long hours. Although my chief has put in 80 hours multiple times.