Nfl Player Pulled Over Outside Hospital While Rushing To Be With Dying

Rudy · March 27, 2009

Well I just watched the actual video, I pretty much agree with Emmitt's assessment. Yess, Little old men can shoot you (see Trooper Randal Wade dash cam), a lone officer with multiple subjects (see Constable Lunsford dash cam), oh and just to see how quickly a situation can turn to a shootout, see the dash cam involving the shooting of Game Warden Justin Hurst. An officer must control the situation at ALL times.

To start with, anytime I have to run lights and sirens to that long to even catch up to a vehicle says they were probably travelling at un unsafe speed, couple that with the vehicle not stopping makes it look to me as a fleeing suspect. Had Moats stopped immediately, most likely he would have been released immediately or even escorted to the hospital. Had Moates not tried to get into a pissing contest and simply kept as calm of a tone as possible, the situation probably would have been resolved sooner. Just give the officer the DL and the insurance info when he asked for it and explain what is the problem. Having 3-4 people approach the officer, yelling and pointing will only esclate it.

As for the officer, some of his language, ie "I can take you to jail" or "Your attitude sucks." should be reserved for other situations. As Emmitt pointed out, I too am not going to negotiate with you outside your car, and if you broke the law, thats not up for negotiation either. You can tell me why you did this or that, calmly, and I will listen to you. What Officer Powell should have done is when the subjects exited their vehicles, called out to them to stop and order them to come to him, while keeping their hands visible. The fact that they are parking at an emergency room should tell him most likely they are having an emergency situation. After they had turned their attention to him, he should have stated very clearly, for ONE person to tell him what is going on. When they stated the situation, he should have asked the driver (Moats) for his DL and stated "I understand why you ran the red light, but you need to stop when I approach you and turn on my lights". I would have instructed for them to go into the hospital, run the driver for warrants. and then when that comes back negative, find them in the hospital and, in this situation, offered my condolences for their loss, and hand his DL back to him.

Officer Powell should be sent to some sensitivity training, not because of the subject's race, but to learn how to handle stressful situations more professionally. He should not be fired! Should that d-bag Kunkle come out and publicly repremand the officer while geting on his kneepads for the Moats family, hell no. But thats what happens when you have a d-bag politician for a police chief and it will also be the reason Powell probably losses his job.

Also, the reason he didnt just turn off his lights and drive on when they pulled into the hospital, is because you dont know whey they are going. One of them could have just been the victim of a violent crime, and he could be the first officer to get the information and save valuable time. Also you get their DL's, even if you are letting them go, is because they could have warrants for their arrest for violent offenses, and if you just let them go, you may not get a second chance to arrest them before they commit another serious crime.

oldguystudent · March 27, 2009

So I wonder if the officer will show up to traffic court if Moats decides to challenge the ticket.

March 27, 2009

So I wonder if the officer will show up to traffic court if Moats decides to challenge the ticket.

Ticket was already dismissed.

Rudy · March 27, 2009

Ticket was already dismissed.

That doesnt suprise me. Perfectly legitimate ticket dismissed because the politicians want to kiss up. An officer's poor attitude is no reason to dismiss a ticket.

March 27, 2009

That doesnt suprise me. Perfectly legitimate ticket dismissed because the politicians want to kiss up. An officer's poor attitude is no reason to dismiss a ticket.

Wow.

Maybe the whole "treat people with the dignity you want to be treated with yourself" and not adding insult to injury. Maybe it is the DPD saying, "we are sorry for your loss. Please deal with your situation and don't worry about this ticket."

Rudy · March 27, 2009

Just because that is the slogan doesnt mean anything. The only reason they dismissed the ticket is becuase of the publicity of the case.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Rudy

UNT90 · March 27, 2009

He was a taker and is a taker. He can turn in his badge and no longer be a taker. If he can't handle the decisions he is forced to make, then he needs to find another profession.
His kid are at most 3 years old. I am fairly positive other 3 year olds can't form the cognitive thoughts to string together ridicule. I am also certain adults won't insult his 3 year old..
Surely you speak in hyperbole to be the devil's advocate.
Sounds like you aren't justifying this guy, but you can't admit that is a jerk and shouldn't be an officer, because you think it is a slippery slope. That then you would be dissing all cops and justifying what some people say about them.
Notice, I haven't said "all cops" or "they always do ____". I am talking about this guy and this situation. You are talking about the profession as a whole and play the whole "whoa is me (them)" card.

So you judge his whole career by 16 minutes of video which shows, technically, he did nothing wrong? Nice. Do you know what it feels like to follow a car with lights and sirens for a mile, only to have three people ignore your commands when the vehicle stops? Do you know what that does to the aderaline of a police officer, much less a three year, 25 year old police officer?

If you believe that his kids willl not be insulted by adults, or that he will not be insulted by adults in front of his kids (which is even worse), you are extremely naive.

My initial point was it's extremely unfair to expect officers to practice disgression when day by day, policy by policy, administrators are doing everything possible to eliminate that very same disgression. I'm pointing out a bigger issue. Several on here know exactly what I am talking about.

Rudy · March 27, 2009

If his adrenaline was pumping too much, then he probably does need more training. He should have acted more professionally, even though technically he did nothing wrong in terms of procedure. He alternated the sirens at intersections to alret traffic, He alternated the sirens to get the drivers attention, he did maintain control of the situation (althought he could have done so in a more professional manner, he gave his location, he asked for another unit in the area to come back him up, he parked his squad car correctly, he kept the subjects hands visible, and he issued a justified ticket. His problem is how he asserted his attitude and judgment. Legally, he was in the right, however, he needs to learn more professionalism.

March 27, 2009

So you judge his whole career by 16 minutes of video which shows, technically, he did nothing wrong? Nice. Do you know what it feels like to follow a car with lights and sirens for a mile, only to have three people ignore your commands when the vehicle stops? Do you know what that does to the aderaline of a police officer, much less a three year, 25 year old police officer?
If you believe that his kids willl not be insulted by adults, or that he will not be insulted by adults in front of his kids (which is even worse), you are extremely naive.
My initial point was it's extremely unfair to expect officers to practice disgression when day by day, policy by policy, administrators are doing everything possible to eliminate that very same disgression. I'm pointing out a bigger issue. Several on here know exactly what I am talking about.

No, I don't know what is like to catch up to a speeding SUV, follow them for 20 seconds and end up having them pull into an emergency bay. Sounds terrifying! </facepalm> This same cop even said in casual conversation after this was over that he had never been in a high speed chase and that this WAS NOT one. He said he just took a bit long to pull over. He even admitted that to the Plano officer.

Call me naive all you want, but I expect more from cops on a day to day basis, despite what administrators do behind the scenes. You say that his punishment would be appealed, right? What if, here it is again, what if he doesn't write this guy a ticket and he gets reprimanded ? It would be appealed and overturned. No big deal... well, besides the whole doing the right thing.

You know TECHNICALLY it wouldn't have been wrong for Moats to tell the cop to STFU and to kiss his ass? Supreme court has upheld that many times, given that he isn't threatening the officer to provoke violence. Technically, he would have done nothing wrong... but certainly you wouldn't blame him for being arrested for it, even though it would be thrown out later. Just because technically it isn't wrong, doesn't mean it ISN'T wrong.

You are smart enough to see the difference. I hope.

UNT90 · March 27, 2009

If his adrenaline was pumping too much, then he probably does need more training. He should have acted more professionally, even though technically he did nothing wrong in terms of procedure. He alternated the sirens at intersections to alret traffic, He alternated the sirens to get the drivers attention, he did maintain control of the situation (althought he could have done so in a more professional manner, he gave his location, he asked for another unit in the area to come back him up, he parked his squad car correctly, he kept the subjects hands visible, and he issued a justified ticket. His problem is how he asserted his attitude and judgment. Legally, he was in the right, however, he needs to learn more professionalism.

Agree. I see a courtesy complaint after everything shakes out and the media hype "blows over". Of course, this will come after over-discipline, followed by the officer's appeal.

Rudy · March 27, 2009

You know TECHNICALLY it wouldn't have been wrong for Moats to tell the cop to STFU and to kiss his ass? Supreme court has upheld that many times. Technically, he would have done nothing wrong... but certainly you wouldn't blame him for being arrested for it, even though it would be thrown out later. Just because technically it isn't wrong, doesn't mean it ISN'T wrong.

No, but had he done that, he would have been arrested running the red light, no insurance, unsafe driving, and fleeing, would have been ticketed for the red light, no insurance, unsafe driving, and there would have been a dog run across the road on the way to Loo Sterrit, causing the officer to apply his brakes suddenly.

Rudy · March 27, 2009

Agree. I see a courtesy complaint after everything shakes out and the media hype "blows over". Of course, this will come after over-discipline, followed by the officer's appeal.

The only complaint Moats has is with the professionalism with the officer, and even that is in question because Moats himself wasnt calm. Yes I know his mother-in-law was dying.

When was cited by a DPD for speeding in a one block school zone which i didnt see, i had no problem with the ticket, I was appaled at her professionalism. Sure I could have complained, but the ticket wouldnt have been dismissed because: ( a ) Im not famous, ( B ) the media isnt involved, ( c ) Im white.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Rudy

UNT90 · March 27, 2009

No, I don't know what is like to catch up to a speeding SUV, follow them for 20 seconds and end up having them pull into an emergency bay. Sounds terrifying! </facepalm> This same cop even said in casual conversation after this was over that he had never been in a high speed chase and that this WAS NOT one. He said he just took a bit long to pull over. He even admitted that to the Plano officer.
Call me naive all you want, but I expect more from cops on a day to day basis, despite what administrators do behind the scenes. You say that his punishment would be appealed, right? What if, here it is again, what if he doesn't write this guy a ticket and he gets reprimanded ? It would be appealed and overturned. No big deal... well, besides the whole doing the right thing.
You know TECHNICALLY it wouldn't have been wrong for Moats to tell the cop to STFU and to kiss his ass? Supreme court has upheld that many times. Technically, he would have done nothing wrong... but certainly you wouldn't blame him for being arrested for it, even though it would be thrown out later. Just because technically it isn't wrong, doesn't mean it ISN'T wrong.
You are smart enough to see the difference. I hope.

So many errors in this post. If you don't think depatmental policies affect what officers do and how they react, then you really don't understand the profession. Yes, administrators have a huge effect on officer's actions through these policies.

You know the funny thing? Those very policies will be used by this officer's lawyer to prove that this officer did nothing wrong. Kunkle will over-discipline the officer anyway, because he is a political animal and will respond to the publicity (not knocking Kunkle, just stating a fact).

UNTFan23 · March 27, 2009

If his adrenaline was pumping too much, then he probably does need more training. He should have acted more professionally, even though technically he did nothing wrong in terms of procedure. He alternated the sirens at intersections to alret traffic, He alternated the sirens to get the drivers attention, he did maintain control of the situation (althought he could have done so in a more professional manner, he gave his location, he asked for another unit in the area to come back him up, he parked his squad car correctly, he kept the subjects hands visible, and he issued a justified ticket. His problem is how he asserted his attitude and judgment. Legally, he was in the right, however, he needs to learn more professionalism.

Too bad attacking a police officer's [lack of] professionalism despite being in the right doesn't get the ticket dismissed in the court room. I guess you could file a complaint but it still doesn't get the ticket dismissed.

March 27, 2009

So many errors in this post. If you don't think depatmental policies affect what officers do and how they react, then you really don't understand the profession. Yes, administrators have a huge effect on officer's actions through these policies.
You know the funny thing? Those very policies will be used by this officer's lawyer to prove that this officer did nothing wrong. Kunkle will over-discipline the officer anyway, because he is a political animal and will respond to the publicity (not knocking Kunkle, just stating a fact).

Guess you don't understand that "technically not wrong" != "right." My bad.

Rudy · March 27, 2009

Too bad attacking a police officer's [lack of] professionalism despite being in the right doesn't get the ticket dismissed in the court room. I guess you could file a complaint but it still doesn't get the ticket dismissed.

Yes and no. The officer's professionalism still doesnt excuse the fact that you broke the law. Moats had no leagal justification for running the red light or speding, or failure to stop. However, in the intrest of caring and kindness, he should have been let go.

UNT90 · March 27, 2009

Guess you don't understand that "technically not wrong" != "right." My bad.

I hope you understand that "doing whats right" and complying with department policy are not the same thing. There are many different versions of "the right thing" in society these days.

In the old days, the chief would have reviewed this officer's overall record, and if there were previous issues with the officer practicing proper disgression, the officer would have been fired. Now, thanks to all these departmental policies, the chief will have to prove that the officer not only violated one of these policies, but that he has a past history of violating these policies on many different occasions in order for the chief to fire this officer. Don't be mad at me. This is simply the way it is nowadays.

All that said, the officer could have definitively handled the situation differently, but that can be said for any situation an officer encounters.

Edited March 27, 2009 by UNT90

March 27, 2009

I hope you understand that "doing whats right" and complying with department policy are not the same thing. There are many different versions of "the right thing" in society these days.
In the old days, the chief would have reviewed this officer's overall record, and if there were previous issues with the officer practicing proper disgression, the officer would have been fired. Now, thanks to all these departmental policies, the chief will have to prove that the officer not only violated one of these policies, but that he has a past history of violating these policies on many different occasions in order for the chief to fire this officer. Don't be mad at me. This is simply the way it is nowadays.
All that said, the officer could have definitively handled the situation differently, but that can be said for any situation an officer encounters.

You are talking out of your butt... seriously. The officer even said ~"if you would have stopped and your attitude was better, i would have let you go." He clearly isn't thinking about how to handle it from a departmental point of view, he was on a power trip and not being compassionate. All you are setting up is that it is hard for the chief to fire an officer. If that is the case, then said officer can be as big of an ass as he wants to be... no problem. He technically isn't wrong, but still far from right.

All that said, the officer could have definitively handled the situation differently, but that can be said for any situation ~~an officer~~ a person encounters.

There, fixed it for you. He acted wrong as a person... not an officer. This isn't unique to being a police officer. You can either be a dick or not be a dick. The difference is that if I am a dick to my customer, I am fired.

UNT90 · March 27, 2009

You are talking out of your butt... seriously. The officer even said ~"if you would have stopped and your attitude was better, i would have let you go." He clearly isn't thinking about how to handle it from a departmental point of view, he was on a power trip and not being compassionate. All you are setting up is that it is hard for the chief to fire an officer. If that is the case, then said officer can be as big of an ass as he wants to be... no problem. He technically isn't wrong, but still far from right.
There, fixed it for you. He acted wrong as a person... not an officer. This isn't unique to being a police officer. You can either be a dick or not be a dick. The difference is that if I am a dick to my customer, I am fired.

We are obviously talking about two different things.

Now, as a moderator, will you be giving yourself some time off for the highlighted comment?

March 27, 2009

We are obviously talking about two different things.
Now, as a moderator, will you be giving yourself some time off for the highlighted comment?

Sure why not... I will moderate myself for 8 hours and go to bed now. Hell, I may not even post until Monday.

emmitt01 · March 27, 2009

Wow. 99.9% of the time I would agree with John Denver. This happens to be that 0.1% when it is clear to me that his "understanding" of the police profession and what it takes day in and day out is about as inaccurate as one can get. Nobody, let me repeat, nobody has said this officer did the "right thing." That it can even be argued, though, that this situation was one of mere common-sense and that the officer should have perceived no possible danger is why officers have the "us vs. them" mentality. We get seconds to make a decision...the bleeding hearts get days/weeks/months to criticize. And let me say, again, I don't think this officer was in the right...but spare me that jack-assery of cop generalizations.

Rudy · March 27, 2009

jack-assery

Is that the word of the day Emmitt? :rolleyes:

LongJim · March 27, 2009

Regarding cop training...I work with a lot of cops, and both my brothers are cops. I talked to a Lieutenant over here a few weeks ago, and he told me, "I've been a cop for 22 years. If you do what you are trained to do as a police officer, it's hard to get killed in this job. I'm not saying that sometimes your time is just up, but if you do what you're trained to do, and handle things in the way you're trained--it's hard to get killed."

I believe this cop was unable to control the situation, and his attitude escalated the problem once he had the situation correctly assessed. Definitely a bad deal. However, I agree that initially he was (mostly) proceeding as he'd been taught. It doesn't matter if a 'little old lady' or Gandhi himself is getting out of the car. Having said that--his attitude sucked, and he definitely tripped.

oldguystudent · March 27, 2009

I watched the video last night. I have a couple questions. Can an officer really take a person to jail for running a red light? Isn't that just a simple moving violation? If so, it does frighten me a bit that an infraction that warrants a civil fine of $75 from a camera in Frisco can get me a night in the pokey down in Plano/Dallas if either an officer or I happen to have a burr up our butts on any given day.

As for the towing of the car, am I legally responsible to find a marked, legal parking space while immediately stopping the vehicle the second I see the lights come on? What was with the threats to tow the vehicle? I've actually thought about this one driving through Little Elm. I had a police car following me (I'm guessing that he saw the wind cause me to swerve and thought maybe I was drinking), and at certain points on the road, I wondered where I would pull over if he turned on his lights. Is it ok to somehow signal a police car that you're looking for a safe place for both you and him to pull over?

I really see both sides of this issue. I think the office did act within the letter of of the law, but most certainly not the spirit. I think Moats and his family were a tad bit more excited than the news stories care to admit, thus making it more difficult for the officer to assess the situation. Bottom line, the officer is young and somewhat inexperienced. I think he let the job and its power get to him on this one. He did appear to me at time to be creating reasons to provoke Moat. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's a 100% bad cop or that he should never wear the badge again. It does worry me that maybe DPD is sending out under trained and therefore reactionary officers out on the streets both for their own safety and my peace of mind knowing that any interaction I may have with the law will be handled professionally without exception. Guys like that should be riding with an older officer for quite some time before being let out on their own.

March 27, 2009

...but spare me that jack-assery of cop generalizations.

Emmitt, point out my generalizations. I think you are being sensitive

Even if he had his gun drawn from his heart pumping, that is fine, I understand. But once he found out what is going on, he should have been the bigger man. I can understand adrenaline flow... fight or flight. I get it. But that is what cops are trained to overcome, or that is what they should be trained in.

I don't think I misunderstand your profession. I don't see my generalizations. I will happily backtrack if you point them out.