Utsa Football

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 13, 2009

Not indoors for much longer, they are building a new outdoor stadium....
http://stadium.gophersports.com/
http://www.gophersports.com/PhotoAlbum.dbm...mp;palbid=53303

Wow. $288 million. Nice stadium. State of Minnesota is kicking in $137 million?

UNT_playmaker · March 13, 2009

Now that is a beau-tiful stadium... It looks like our exterior but the interior is a whole heck of alot nicer.... Wow impressive....

UNT90 · March 13, 2009

Syracuse - Big East Conference, National Championship, Ernie Davis, Larry Csonka, Jim Brown, Al Davis, Art Monk and Daryl Johnston just to name a few.

Syracuse has not been Big Time in some time. I blame that on the dome.

See my research to back up the Dome relationship to the decline of the football program below:

Edited March 13, 2009 by UNT90

UNTLifer · March 13, 2009

Syracuse - Big East Conference, National Championship, Ernie Davis, Larry Csonka, Jim Brown, Al Davis, Art Monk and Daryl Johnston just to name a few.

Without looking it up, I would feel safe in stating that Davis, Csonka, Brown, Davis and maybe Monk never played in the Carrier Dome.

QUOTE(The Fake Lonnie Finch @ Mar 12 2009, 12:41 AM)
And, as far as passing over jobs, we're back to contract talk again. In every college cotract I've seen (except us with Dickey, thank to our brillant administration and athletic department), a coach will not be paid the remainder of a contract if he goes to work for another school. It's likely Coker simply stayed out until his Miami contract ran out. Gary Gibbs and John Blake both did that after they left Oklahoma. As soon as the school's obligation to pay them ended, they were back on the sidelines and have been ever since. Miami pays well, so Coker likely enjoyed a short reprise, supplementing with some face time on ESPN until the Miami contract ended.

Yep, and they were both highly successful as head coaches. :huh:

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 13, 2009

You make good arguments in your posts, but you can do better than this. There were things at OU that Blake did that proved he was a great assistant and great recruiter, but that he was not even a good head coach. Blake got the job because of one recommendation, Switzer. Gibbs inherited a bad situation, where he couldn't win, and he also realized he is a better coordiantor than head coach. I admire that he has the courage to do that. Norv Turner is another who comes to mind. My point is that Larry Coker had a lot to prove when he left Miami as a head coach, even with a Nat. Championship because many gave him no credit. As you note, he certainly made his contribution in recruiting, but had Butch Davis stayed, he would still be the head coach there and Davis was the biggest factor in Miami's success. Coker did not just bide his time, and accept the UTSA job as you say. Nobody else wanted him, not even an SMU, TCU, Rice, or Tulsa who have all had openings since he left Miami. Utah, Oklahoma State, Missouri, Miss. State the list goes on and on. You have also mentioned that he recruited Texas well. I would say against Mackovic, Slocum, and even OU at that time was a lot easier then he will find today. Also, do not leave out Rice, UTEP, and SMU as compared to the shape those programs were in when he was at Miami. The landscape has changed, and this program WILL NOT be the South Florida or Central Florida in the state of Texas.

Not really. There are places where simply winning isn't good enough. That's the point. Here, you don't even have to win and people will be defending you from dusk til dawn. The pressure is tiny and that's what makes the criticism of Brett Vito all the more absurd. He's one of only two writers in America even giving a smidgen of notice to the program. Whereas, you've got coaches at many other school having a whole nation of writers second guessing their every move. The point remains, if Dodge can't handle the criticism of one writer in a city of less than 75,000 covering the poorest football conference in FBS, he shouldn't be up here.

As far as jobs for Coker - if he's drawing a paycheck from Miami and ESPN, there's no point taking just any offer that comes along. His last four stops, over a roughly 20 year span were, what...Miami, Ohio State, and Okahoma. After that, he wouldn't likely just default down to SMU, Tulsa or Rice if he didn't have to. And, since he was drawing two paychecks, he didn't have to. And, so, he didn't. Again, many coaches will sit out the remainder of their contract before they jump back in (and, again, for reasons unknown, we put Darrell Dickey in the rare and unique position of being able to collect money from us while standing on someone else's sideline).

UTSA is in the heart of the territory he's covered well throughout his four decade career in coaching. The school is large and without a program the way USF was. Like Schnellenberger, he could pick up an opportunity like this based on his reputation. I wouldn't say that it won't repeat FAU and USF's successes. Those schools have all had a push from everyone involved, top to bottom. Schnellenberger and Leavitt were able to bide their time in I-AA while preparing their schools for I-A/FBS. It will be no different for Coker at UTSA. The NCAA and many conferences will smile upon the media market of San Antonio. The Alamo Bowl is already a proven entity there. The only variable now, as Howard Schnellenberger once said, is time.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 13, 2009

Yep, and they were both highly successful as head coaches.

Gibbs wasn't bad. Blake was awful. But, that wasn't the point. The point of Gibbs was that although he won and took OU to bowl games, he was ousted and reviled the Sooner fans and media. Contrast that with Dodge who seems to be unable to handle the pressure of one writer.

The other point is money. Gibbs and Blake were paid by OU through the end of their contracts, but had the stipulation that those payments would end if they got another job coaching. Thus, it didn't make sense financially for either of them to simply go be an assistant somewhere else right off the bat. They were being paid head coach money to sit at home with their families and watch it all on TV.

When their contracts finally played out, they were on the sidelines again. And, neither had to labor at schools in smaller conferences. Coker is the same in this regard. He was being paid head coach money by Miami. In addition, ESPN was paying him. So, there was no point in throwing his name into every open coaching position. When the contract expired, he took an opportunity.

See, any way you split it, we are the exception - we pay coaches to stand on other team's sidelines. Other schools don't. When our head coaching job is open, we assume we can't get certain coaches, although they can be had, especially guys who already have money in the bank, but no more contracts remaining.

UTSA, withouth a football program, is already more aggressive than we are about the future. They are serious about it. If they weren't, they would have hired the Division II coach that was a finalist. We're not, so we hire high school coaches.

Hiring Coker simply signals that they will be an FCS/I-AA pass through the way FAU and USF were. If they just wanted to be an FCS school, they'd have hired someone with less credentials and experience than Coker.

UNTLifer · March 13, 2009

Not really. There are places where simply winning isn't good enough. That's the point. Here, you don't even have to win and people will be defending you from dusk til dawn. The pressure is tiny and that's what makes the criticism of Brett Vito all the more absurd. He's one of only two writers in America even giving a smidgen of notice to the program. Whereas, you've got coaches at many other school having a whole nation of writers second guessing their every move. The point remains, if Dodge can't handle the criticism of one writer in a city of less than 75,000 covering the poorest football conference in FBS, he shouldn't be up here.
As far as jobs for Coker - if he's drawing a paycheck from Miami and ESPN, there's no point taking just any offer that comes along. His last four stops, over a roughly 20 year span were, what...Miami, Ohio State, and Okahoma. After that, he wouldn't likely just default down to SMU, Tulsa or Rice if he didn't have to. And, since he was drawing two paychecks, he didn't have to. And, so, he didn't. Again, many coaches will sit out the remainder of their contract before they jump back in (and, again, for reasons unknown, we put Darrell Dickey in the rare and unique position of being able to collect money from us while standing on someone else's sideline).
UTSA is in the heart of the territory he's covered well throughout his four decade career in coaching. The school is large and without a program the way USF was. Like Schnellenberger, he could pick up an opportunity like this based on his reputation. I wouldn't say that it won't repeat FAU and USF's successes. Those schools have all had a push from everyone involved, top to bottom. Schnellenberger and Leavitt were able to bide their time in I-AA while preparing their schools for I-A/FBS. It will be no different for Coker at UTSA. The NCAA and many conferences will smile upon the media market of San Antonio. The Alamo Bowl is already a proven entity there. The only variable now, as Howard Schnellenberger once said, is time.

Being a lawyer, you should know the above in bold is all speculation and inadmissable.

Also, Denton is over 100,000 in population and I would argue that the SBC is not the poorest football conference in FBS in terms of performance, dollars maybe, but I took your comment to mean talent.

The point regarding Coker is that he was rarely, if ever, mentioned for openings and that had nothing to do with his contract status. Coaches want to coach and the schools from the Big $$ conferences could have thrown a lot of money at him to entice him to coach their teams if they really wanted him. IMHO, he took the UTSA job in hopes of rebuilding his reputation.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 13, 2009

Being a lawyer, you should know the above in bold is all speculation and inadmissable.
Also, Denton is over 100,000 in population and I would argue that the SBC is not the poorest football conference in FBS in terms of performance, dollars maybe, but I took your comment to mean talent.
The point regarding Coker is that he was rarely, if ever, mentioned for openings and that had nothing to do with his contract status. Coaches want to coach and the schools from the Big $$ conferences could have thrown a lot of money at him to entice him to coach their teams if they really wanted him. IMHO, he took the UTSA job in hopes of rebuilding his reputation.

No, it's precisely because while being trained as a lawyer, I took both amateur and professional sports law from the guy who wrote the texbook, Ray Yasser, and we studied contracts extensively. It is not speculation that Coker was being paid by Miami. Miami, like any other school whose administration and athletic department have their head screwed on properly, don't pay former coaches to stand on other sidelines collecting their cash. And human nature being what it is, Coker wasn't going to trade millions of dollars for hundreds of thousands.

I would say the Sun Belt is the poorest in cash and talent at the FBS level. We've got the fewest bowl ties in and have fewer guys in the NFL than any of the other conferences. I'm not sure what else that signals. That our conference commissioner turns down bowl affiliations because they are beneath us? Or, our player have the talent to go pro, but choose not to?

Look, it's simple - UTSA has a bigger vision of their football program than we do. It's neither a good thing or a bad thing. It's just that way it is. In any given profession, there is talk and there is action. We have talk. UTSA, like FAU and USF before in building their programs from scratch, are taking action.

Edited March 13, 2009 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

GreenMachine · March 13, 2009

No, it's precisely because while being trained as a lawyer

that answers so many questions. should have been able to guess it after your 800th post stating the same exact thing. Are you getting billing hours out of your posting time? :lol:

UNTLifer · March 13, 2009

No, it's precisely because while being trained as a lawyer, I took both amateur and professional sports law from the guy who wrote the texbook, Ray Yasser, and we studied contracts extensively.

:clapping:

I couldn't find the emoticon that bows down.

UNTLifer · March 13, 2009

And, as far as passing over jobs, we're back to contract talk again. In every college cotract I've seen (except us with Dickey, thank to our brillant administration and athletic department), a coach will not be paid the remainder of a contract if he goes to work for another school. It's likely Coker simply stayed out until his Miami contract ran out. Gary Gibbs and John Blake both did that after they left Oklahoma. As soon as the school's obligation to pay them ended, they were back on the sidelines and have been ever since. Miami pays well, so Coker likely enjoyed a short reprise, supplementing with some face time on ESPN until the Miami contract ended.
Downplay the hire all you like. He went to Miami in 1996 as offensive coordinator and recruited and built the offense that he eventually led to the national title. The NFL is still stocked with players from his Miami offenses - Rashad Butler, Bryant McKinnie, Vernon Carey, Najeh Davenport, Kellen Winslow Jr., Bubba Franks, Reggie Wayne, Frank Gore, Devin Hester, Jeremy Shockey, Edgerrin James, Andre Johnson, Eric Winston, Willis McGahee, Lance Leggett, Brett Romberg, Sinorice Moss, Santana Moss, Clinton Portis, Chris Myers, Roscoe Parrish, Greg Olsen. The NFL is not stocked with former players of Todd Dodge - whether they be former high school players or from UNT.

Please tell me the coach's contracts you've seen? Did you see Dickey's? Did you see Coker's? Or did you just read through generic contracts while you were the grasshopper to Master Yasser?

The second paragraph just shows what Coker did as a head coach with a wealth of talent. He pissed it away, got worse every year, etc... You act like Coker was the driving force behind all of that talent and the success Miami had while he was OC. He was a poor head coach that wasted a lot of talent and couldn't keep Miami at the level they were accustomed to performing.

It is much the same as when Switzer took over for Johnson with the Cowboys. Sure, he won a Super Bowl, but it was with JJ's talent and players that shared JJ's expectations, not the expectations of a coach that ate hot dogs on the sideline while coaching in the Pro Bowl.

oldguystudent · March 13, 2009

Not indoors for much longer, they are building a new outdoor stadium....
http://stadium.gophersports.com/
http://www.gophersports.com/PhotoAlbum.dbm...mp;palbid=53303

Given that Minnesota rarely sees temps on this side of zero during football season, I'm going to give them a pass on my criticisms of that design. Ok. Here goes. Beautiful building, but it doesn't look like a football stadium to me. It looks more like a fancy aquarium where one goes to glance at the fish through a thick pane of glass while sucking down mid-grade wine and listening to NPR approved jazz. The suites look like hotel rooms with the furniture centered around the flat screen TV. The lounge is a see and be seen kind of place, again centered around TVs. If I want that kind of environment, I'll go sit in the Hilton sports bar. If I'm going to pay who knows how much for a ticket ($288 million? Those are gonna' be some spensive tix!), I want to BE at the game, not observe it from afar through glass like some kind of mythical deity.

NT80 · March 13, 2009

Given that Minnesota rarely sees temps on this side of zero during football season, I'm going to give them a pass on my criticisms of that design. Ok. Here goes. Beautiful building, but it doesn't look like a football stadium to me. It looks more like a fancy aquarium where one goes to glance at the fish through a thick pane of glass while sucking down mid-grade wine and listening to NPR approved jazz. The suites look like hotel rooms with the furniture centered around the flat screen TV. The lounge is a see and be seen kind of place, again centered around TVs. If I want that kind of environment, I'll go sit in the Hilton sports bar. If I'm going to pay who knows how much for a ticket ($288 million? Those are gonna' be some spensive tix!), I want to BE at the game, not observe it from afar through glass like some kind of mythical deity.

Those "spensive tix" are also now going to come with their own much cooler temps too. Minn fans are currently used to the 70 degree comfort of indoors playing and watching and are now going to be subjected to the harse reality of outdoor watching on the tundra for more $$. Have fun!

Edited March 13, 2009 by NT80

oldguystudent · March 13, 2009

Those "spensive tix" are also now going to come with their own much cooler temps too. Minn fans are currently used to the 70 degree comfort of indoors playing and watching and are now going to be subjected to the harse reality of outdoor watching on the tundra for more $$. Have fun!

On the other hand, I've got family in Wisconsin, and those northerners are frickin' crazy! They revel in exposure to cold temperatures. A good day for people up in Wisconsin is a day out on the lake when they have to drink their beer faster than it can freeze in the frigid artic temperatures. They're not human I tells ya.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 13, 2009

Terminations fall into one of three categories:

-with just cause (coach fired for triggering an issue listed in the contract)

-without just cause (coach has not triggered an issue listed, but the school feels a need for a change in directions)

-employee termination (coach decides to leave without being fired)

[1] In terminations with just cause, the school's liability to the coach end. That is, they owe nothing more, even if there is time remaining.

[2] In terminations without just cause, the school is still liable for the contract. Now, how liable it is becomes the key. In some cases, clauses reduce partially or fully the amount paid depending on the future employment of the fired coach through the end of the contract.

In some cases, the school stays on the hook for whatever amount would be owed normally, minus whatever amount the coach earns at a new job. The job doesn't have to be in coaching.

The clause that completely ends the school's liability for the remaining contract due to employment is usually worded as follows:

Mitigation of Damages by Employee If University Terminates Without Cause.

Notwithstanding the provisions of Section (X.XX.X), the Employee (Coach) agrees to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damges under Section (X.XX.X) and to make reasonable and diligent efforts to obtain comparable employment, such as a coaching position at a university or professional team, as soon as reasonably possible after termination of this Agreement by the University without cause. After the Employee (Coach) obtains such new employment, the University's financial obligations under this Agreement, including Section (X.XX.X), shall cease.

[3] If the coach decides to leave, he may or may not owe liquidated damages to the school. That is why you have stories such as the one with Rich Rodriguez owing West Virginia money after he left them for Michigan.

The reason "for cause" are generally obvious and egregious - team being put on probation by the NCAA under the coaches watch, most anything involving drugs or steroids, those nagging moral turpitudes that got Mike Price ousted at Bama before he even coached a game, etc. Basically, stuff that puts you in the headlines for all the wrong reasons.

Most firings are "without cause" - 'hey, this guy ain't getting the job done anymore.' In those cases, the contracts are still owed. Depending on the wording of the contract, they can be reduced by the amount the fired coach earns at any other (football or non-football) job for the remainder of the contract period. So, if Miami was paying Coker, say $1,000,000 a season on the remainder of the contract. If he picked up a job as a coordinator somewhere for $300,000, Miami would still owe him $700,000.

However, if they have included the clause I posted above, they are no longer obligated to him if he gets a job, no matter what the pay. So, if he can't find another football job paying $1,000,000, he'd be losing money. With such clause in place, he'd be paid $300,000 as the coordinator at the new school, and nothing by Miami. In that scenario, there's no point in taking a job that pays less than Miami pays until the Miami contract expires.

Also, Lifer, every public school's finances are a matter of public record. You can easily lay your hands on the contracts of any state employee you want with a little work. I'm not at liberty to say whose contracts I have seen. Obviously.

GreenMachine · March 13, 2009

Terminations fall into one of three categories:
-with just cause (coach fired for triggering an issue listed in the contract)
-without just cause (coach has not triggered an issue listed, but the school feels a need for a change in directions)
-employee termination (coach decides to leave without being fired)
[1] In terminations with just cause, the school's liability to the coach end. That is, they owe nothing more, even if there is time remaining.
[2] In terminations without just cause, the school is still liable for the contract. Now, how liable it is becomes the key. In some cases, clauses reduce partially or fully the amount paid depending on the future employment of the fired coach through the end of the contract.
In some cases, the school stays on the hook for whatever amount would be owed normally, minus whatever amount the coach earns at a new job. The job doesn't have to be in coaching.
The clause that completely ends the school's liability for the remaining contract due to employment is usually worded as follows:
Mitigation of Damages by Employee If University Terminates Without Cause.
Notwithstanding the provisions of Section (X.XX.X), the Employee (Coach) agrees to mitigate the University's obligation to pay liquidated damges under Section (X.XX.X) and to make reasonable and diligent efforts to obtain comparable employment, such as a coaching position at a university or professional team, as soon as reasonably possible after termination of this Agreement by the University without cause. After the Employee (Coach) obtains such new employment, the University's financial obligations under this Agreement, including Section (X.XX.X), shall cease.
[3] If the coach decides to leave, he may or may not owe liquidated damages to the school. That is why you have stories such as the one with Rich Rodriguez owing West Virginia money after he left them for Michigan.
The reason "for cause" are generally obvious and egregious - team being put on probation by the NCAA under the coaches watch, most anything involving drugs or steroids, those nagging moral turpitudes that got Mike Price ousted at Bama before he even coached a game, etc. Basically, stuff that puts you in the headlines for all the wrong reasons.
Most firings are "without cause" - 'hey, this guy ain't getting the job done anymore.' In those cases, the contracts are still owed. Depending on the wording of the contract, they can be reduced by the amount the fired coach earns at any other (football or non-football) job for the remainder of the contract period. So, if Miami was paying Coker, say $1,000,000 a season on the remainder of the contract. If he picked up a job as a coordinator somewhere for $300,000, Miami would still owe him $700,000.
However, if they have included the clause I posted above, they are no longer obligated to him if he gets a job, no matter what the pay. So, if he can't find another football job paying $1,000,000, he'd be losing money. With such clause in place, he'd be paid $300,000 as the coordinator at the new school, and nothing by Miami. In that scenario, there's no point in taking a job that pays less than Miami pays until the Miami contract expires.
Also, Lifer, every public school's finances are a matter of public record. You can easily lay your hands on the contracts of any state employee you want with a little work. I'm not at liberty to say whose contracts I have seen. Obviously.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Got5onIt · March 13, 2009

I actually like the helmet. The uniforms remind of UTEP. Is Orange & Blue a requirement for being a UT satellite school or something???

NT80 · March 13, 2009

I actually like the helmet. The uniforms remind of UTEP. Is Orange & Blue a requirement for being a UT satellite school or something???

Yes, it appears so.

UTA's official colors used to be Royal Blue & White with Red added later as an accent color. Now they list Royal Blue, White, and Orange. UT-Tyler is also Blue and Orange.

Also, all UT-Something school players must face Austin and say the Pledge-to-UT before each game while doing the hook-em sign behind their backs.

Edited March 13, 2009 by NT80

aztecskin · March 13, 2009

Yes, it appears so.
UTA's official colors used to be Royal Blue & White with Red added later as an accent color. Now they list Royal Blue, White, and Orange. UT-Tyler is also Blue and Orange.
Also, all UT-Something school players must face Austin and say the Pledge-to-UT before each game while doing the hook-em sign behind their backs.

You know, this reminded me of a story:

My Intro to Computers Professor (required course if you want to get into RTVF) was talking about UNT-Dallas. He went on and on about how it was like if UTSA or UTA opened a campus. We all sat there slightly confused as to how and why he would think this way. Finally I had to inform him that UNT is not part of the UT-system. He was shocked. "you mean that A&M isn't part of UT either?"

Needless to say I was incredulous. "No. UT has its system. A&M has A&M Kingsville and A&M-CC etc, and now UNT has UNT-Dallas" I said.

He went to SMOO by the way. Maybe that explains it somewhat.

Chrisattsu · March 16, 2009

Yes, it appears so.
UTA's official colors used to be Royal Blue & White with Red added later as an accent color. Now they list Royal Blue, White, and Orange. UT-Tyler is also Blue and Orange.
Also, all UT-Something school players must face Austin and say the Pledge-to-UT before each game while doing the hook-em sign behind their backs.

Yep, the UT System requires that all their system schools have orange as a color. This leaves some teams like UTPB and UT-Dallas with ugly colors like Green and Orange.

I am just glad that the A&M System does not force Maroon on everyone

Tarleton - Purple and White

TAMU-Kingsville (A&I) - Blue and Gold

TAMU-Commerce (ETSU) - Blue and Gold

TAMU-Corpus - Green and Blue

West Texas A&M- Maroon and White

TAMIU - Maroon and White

TAMU-Galveston - Extension of of College Station Maroon and White

Chrisattsu · March 16, 2009

You know, this reminded me of a story:
My Intro to Computers Professor (required course if you want to get into RTVF) was talking about UNT-Dallas. He went on and on about how it was like if UTSA or UTA opened a campus. We all sat there slightly confused as to how and why he would think this way. Finally I had to inform him that UNT is not part of the UT-system. He was shocked. "you mean that A&M isn't part of UT either?"
Needless to say I was incredulous. "No. UT has its system. A&M has A&M Kingsville and A&M-CC etc, and now UNT has UNT-Dallas" I said.
He went to SMOO by the way. Maybe that explains it somewhat.

That really is sad.

I think the systems are as follows (not in any order)-

UT System

UNT System

TAMU System

Texas State System

Texas Tech System

UH System

With SFA, Texas Southern, Midwestern, and Texas Woman's being the only independents

greenminer · March 16, 2009

That really is sad.
I think the systems are as follows (not in any order)-
UT System
UNT System
TAMU System
Texas State System
Texas Tech System
UH System
With SFA, Texas Southern, Midwestern, and Texas Woman's being the only independents

SMU and TCU?

KRAM1 · March 16, 2009

SMU and TCU?

Private Schools...can't be part of a state system.

Hey, I thought TWU was actually part of A&M's system at one time? Probably not, but back in the day, the Aggies used to spend lots of time on the TWU campus...back when A&M was male only....some interesting "townie" stories about that time I can share "off-line" sometime. May have just been a "loose connection" between A7M and TWU.

greenminer · March 16, 2009

Private Schools...can't be part of a state system.
Hey, I thought TWU was actually part of A&M's system at one time? Probably not, but back in the day, the Aggies used to spend lots of time on the TWU campus...back when A&M was male only....some interesting "townie" stories about that time I can share "off-line" sometime. May have just been a "loose connection" between A7M and TWU.

I meant them as obvious omissions from his list of independents.