Operating Budget

Green Dozer · March 6, 2009

In another thread, Stebo had this to say:

You guys are looking at our hire against UTSA. UTSA students chose to "tax" themselves for the highest athletic fee possible a few years ago. When Dodge was hired, we were paying off Dickey's buyout and trying to find a coach that we could afford. Want to know who to blame for having to find a coach on a budget? How about - blame ourselves. When the students rejected the first athletic fee - the alumni did not jump in and subsidize that potential income with donations... they just screamed about how the students were apathetic. We have had ZERO "extra" money to hire anyone. People on here scream that we lost out on Harbaugh. Harbaugh was hired that year for a half million a year. We never even had a chance to get him, he simply interviewed and I would bet that once he found out that we were willing to pay at the most $200K, was never a cosideration.
The facts are - this program has had to hire coaches that we could afford. With no athletic fee to speak of and a $3 dollar supplemental fee being used to pay for Title IX upgrades along with the Athletic Center - and a Dickey buyout on the books for the next 3 years - the only path that NT could have gone down was the afford route. We went with the affordable gamble that could get us the most media coverage and most local support. It worked initially. It still may work. When real Div I programs let a coach go, the alumni pay for the buyout and raise money for the new coach (see SMU) - not at North Texas. Our fans get on the one fan meesage board and bitch and moan about how our athletic director can't hire a coach. You get what you pay for and our fan base has not paid for shit.

I did a little research, sorry not as detailed as Quoner, but here is what I found. These numbers are from the Chronicle of Higher Education. The football operating budget for 2007-2008 was $4,219,719.00 on revenue of $1,433,107.00. By my UNT mathematical calculation, that is a loss of $2,786,612.00. We rank last in the Sun Belt in football revenue. We are also upside down in basketball by about $750,000. This is why we can't have all the extras of most programs. Stebo is right, we are getting what we pay for.

Spending at WAC schools range from a low of $8.7 million at Louisiana Tech to $17.1 million at the University of Hawaii. In the MAC, Bowling Green has the smallest operating expenditures for the 2007-2008 year at $10.7 million. By comparison, the Big 12 ranges from 24.7 million at Kansas State to more than $50 million at the University of Texas at Austin. The numbers tell a lot of tales. We may have a nice, new stadium, and the revenues from it will have to go to paying that off What about the rest of the program? Nobody can seem to answer that. I see a lot of folks, especially in this economy, that if they are able to give, may give to the stadium instead of the Mean Green Club. Many of our potential donors are folks who will be working extra years to make up for the losses in their retirement, so the dollar pool will continue to shrink. Looks like some folks need to step up.

Other Schools in our conf. and their losses: Ark St.: even Fla Atlantic: $1,212,733, Fla Intl: $560,231 Mid. Tn.: Even Troy: $88,935 ULL: $57,208 ULM: $940,753 W Ky.:Even

Edited March 6, 2009 by Green Dozer

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 6, 2009

The Dickey buyout on the books is not the fault of the "fans and alumni." Sorry. You are hard pressed to find contracts that pay coaches if they find work elsewhere. These are specific clauses that the schools' attorneys and athletic departments include almost 100% of the time. In fact, the Dickey situation with us is the first (and dumbest) I've ever heard of! That ours didn't include the no pay upon future hiring clause is no poor reflection on us, the fans and alumni. It's yet another example of the bumbling and outright ignorance that occurs in our athletic department.

Also, it is the job of the athletic director and administration to raise funds. If they need to light a spark under the student body, they should do it. Students go to school and have plenty of other things on their minds and little money to spare. If the athletic department and administration couldn't sell them on the idea of a student fee, that's not the students' fault.

And, you don't have to be a big player to understand what needs to done, and then go get it done! Here's an example of an FCS getting it done: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news...e&type=lgns

Perhaps, we should consider hiring SUI's athletic director. He doesn't seem like a guy waiting around for donors or the student body...or even the city. He goes out and hustles them himself. He and the administration there have gone out and gotten things done at a school that, believe me, is out in the middle of the cornfields of Southern Illinois. Anyone else who has ever been to Carbondale understands that it's not exactly a thriving metropolitan area, teeming with big businesses.

We do not have ourselves to blame. The blame lies solely on those who are hired to make the things go. Students don't rise up and start spontaneously throwing extra money at their school. And, neither do alumni. Alumni have families, mortgages, and businesses as their main priorities. If the project, whatever it is, can't be sold on its merits by the people in charge, then the blame for underfunding lies on them and them alone.

Our administration and athletic department needs to do their job. They can't use the city of Denton, its student body, or its alumni base as an excuse. Get out there and hustle. Do your job!

UNTLifer · March 6, 2009

The first phase of Saluki Way carries a price tag of $83 million. Officials expect $20 million from a tax imposed by the city of Carbondale, $41.5 million from student fees and the remaining $21.5 million through private donations.
Goldman said Saluki Way is a necessity for the university and its image.
"If ever there was a shovel-ready project, we have it," Goldman said. "Very soon, we will have two facilities that we're all very proud of."
During the ceremony, Athletic Director Mario Moccia announced the university received a $2 million anonymous donation.
Moccia said administrators knew about the donation months ago, but wanted to wait until the ceremony to make the announcement.
"It was a little bit out of the blue for us," Moccia said. "There's big donors for a project and there's small donors for a project, but quite frankly, the project's success is going to lie on alums that can make that type of gift."
Moccia said the donation put pledges collected for the project at roughly $70 million, leaving fundraisers to seek $13 million more from private donations.

Total price tag: $83 million

Money from the Town of Carbondale: $20 million

Student Fee Money: $41.5 million

Total = $61.5 million

Remaining needed: $21.5 million

The last sentence would lead one to believe that $8.5 million of the remaining $21.5 million needed has already been raised leaving the $13 million deficit.

I salute Southern Illinois for this project, but please tell me how the AD has done this again? It looks like he has only raised $8.5 million, or roughly 10% of the total needed.

GrandGreen · March 6, 2009

In another thread, Stebo had this to say:
I did a little research, sorry not as detailed as Quoner, but here is what I found. These numbers are from the Chronicle of Higher Education. The football operating budget for 2007-2008 was $4,219,719.00 on revenue of $1,433,107.00. By my UNT mathematical calculation, that is a loss of $2,786,612.00. We rank last in the Sun Belt in football revenue. We are also upside down in basketball by about $750,000. This is why we can't have all the extras of most programs. Stebo is right, we are getting what we pay for.
Spending at WAC schools range from a low of $8.7 million at Louisiana Tech to $17.1 million at the University of Hawaii. In the MAC, Bowling Green has the smallest operating expenditures for the 2007-2008 year at $10.7 million. By comparison, the Big 12 ranges from 24.7 million at Kansas State to more than $50 million at the University of Texas at Austin. The numbers tell a lot of tales. We may have a nice, new stadium, and the revenues from it will have to go to paying that off What about the rest of the program? Nobody can seem to answer that. I see a lot of folks, especially in this economy, that if they are able to give, may give to the stadium instead of the Mean Green Club. Many of our potential donors are folks who will be working extra years to make up for the losses in their retirement, so the dollar pool will continue to shrink. Looks like some folks need to step up.
Other Schools in our conf. and their losses: Ark St.: even Fla Atlantic: $1,212,733, Fla Intl: $560,231 Mid. Tn.: Even Troy: $88,935 ULL: $57,208 ULM: $940,753 W Ky.:Even

I fail to see your logic. The football operating budget reported is the third highest in the Belt, hardly non-competitive. There are few schools that make money on football and none I assure you in the Belt. While the expenditure data reported looks relatively reasonable, the revenue certainly does not. For example, FIU reported over 6.4m in football revenues. Care to speculate, how they generated that kind of funds with the lowest attendance in the nation. It is obvious that most schools

included non-operating funds as revenues such as state contributions and the biggest factor, student fees. NT in this set of numbers did not. NT's athletes operating deficits are covered from transfers from general funds which are primarily student funds.

As far as how you fund athletes post-stadium, the same way NT does now along with the majority of schools; with a heavy reliance on student fees. The additional athletic fee should add about $6m annually to the coffers and far as I know any shortfalls can still be covered by general funds. There have been no reductions in other student fees that make up the majority of these funds. The stadium should raise MGC donations, not the reverse. The majority of MGC donations are connected with ticket purchase requirements for certain sections of the stadium. I would expect that there will bigger requirements in the new stadium as well as expanded seating that require donations.

You are correct, if NT ever expects to move up in the NCAA pecking order it is imperative that NT begin to develop increased funding through other sources than students. NT can limp along as it has for decades, but a big push is needed to get NT to the next tier of college athletics.

KRAM1 · March 6, 2009

Just FYI...at Oklahoma State students pay $3.00 per credit hour athletic fee and a $2,50 per credit hour student activity fee (as only two of several "fees" being paid). On top of that students pay $242.00 for football tickets alone. At the moment I do not have the cost of basketball, wrestling, baseball, etc. tickets. I know basketball and wrestling tickts have to be purchased by the students, but don't know about baseball, etc.

Just something to comapre.

KRAM1 · March 6, 2009

And, by the way...a single game home Big XII game ticket at Stillwater for OSU games is priced at $85.00. UNT football is a bargain for students and alums alike!!!

GO MEAN GREEN!

Stan R · March 6, 2009

The Dickey buyout on the books is not the fault of the "fans and alumni." Sorry. You are hard pressed to find contracts that pay coaches if they find work elsewhere. These are specific clauses that the schools' attorneys and athletic departments include almost 100% of the time. In fact, the Dickey situation with us is the first (and dumbest) I've ever heard of! That ours didn't include the no pay upon future hiring clause is no poor reflection on us, the fans and alumni. It's yet another example of the bumbling and outright ignorance that occurs in our athletic department.
Also, it is the job of the athletic director and administration to raise funds. If they need to light a spark under the student body, they should do it. Students go to school and have plenty of other things on their minds and little money to spare. If the athletic department and administration couldn't sell them on the idea of a student fee, that's not the students' fault.
And, you don't have to be a big player to understand what needs to done, and then go get it done! Here's an example of an FCS getting it done: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news...e&type=lgns
Perhaps, we should consider hiring SUI's athletic director. He doesn't seem like a guy waiting around for donors or the student body...or even the city. He goes out and hustles them himself. He and the administration there have gone out and gotten things done at a school that, believe me, is out in the middle of the cornfields of Southern Illinois. Anyone else who has ever been to Carbondale understands that it's not exactly a thriving metropolitan area, teeming with big businesses.
We do not have ourselves to blame. The blame lies solely on those who are hired to make the things go. Students don't rise up and start spontaneously throwing extra money at their school. And, neither do alumni. Alumni have families, mortgages, and businesses as their main priorities. If the project, whatever it is, can't be sold on its merits by the people in charge, then the blame for underfunding lies on them and them alone.
Our administration and athletic department needs to do their job. They can't use the city of Denton, its student body, or its alumni base as an excuse. Get out there and hustle. Do your job!

Can't argue with any of that. Great post.

UNTLifer · March 6, 2009

Can't argue with any of that. Great post.

While I agree that it is the administrations job to create the connection to the school and foster giving by alumni, I find his comparison to Southern Illinois to not hold water. I pointed this out and am awaiting his reply.

greenminer · March 6, 2009

So who can we compare ourselves to?

The Fake Lonnie Finch · March 6, 2009

What doesn't hold water?

They've actually begun construction. We haven't. They've gotten the city of Carbondale (population of maube 25,000) to pony up $20 million. Student fee are kicking in another $41 million. They say they're $13 million short, which says to me, they've gotten $8-9 million in private donation including the $2 million donation that begat the article.

To ask how they did it.... How would I know? My guess is they called alumni and others with interst in SUI and asked for money. That's generally how fundraising works.

I do know this, whatever pitch they have used with the city and private donors needs to be duplicated here. The population of Denton is probably almost triple that of Carbondale. And, Denton has Dallas and Forth Worth both within 45 miles to hit up businesses and other UNT-friendly individuals. The closest big city to Carbondale is St. Louis which is about 100 miles away, weaving mostly through cornfields.

The point is, don't blame the fans and alumni for whatever budget shortfalls we have. There are people hired by the university to be responsible for those things. So, if they aren't getting it done, show them the door and get people in here who can do it.

The ideas are endless. Look at Barak Obama. The guy raised a billion dollars on small donations through the internet.

Ask. Ask, ask, ask. Ask for $1 from those that can give $1 and $1 million from those that can give $1 million. Seriously. If they're doing it in the cornfields on the southern border of Illinois at an FCS school, our administration and athletic department ought to be able to do it.

You don't have to have slick brochure and what not for everybody. Just get a phone bank and have people start dialing down the phone book. Of course, you need to show more to people who are giving more. But, goodness...get out and ask everyone around and take anything they give.

The other option is to pool money for lottery tickets, which I've suggested in the past and which just worked out for 10 cubicle-dwellers at Chubb & Sons up in New Jersey.

Do it all. Take the Steppenwolf approach - fire all of your guns at once and explode into space. But, damn it, do something other than watch every school in America with and without a football program pass us by. At the rate we go at things, Amberton University will have a college football team and stadium up and running before our new stadium is built.

Edited March 6, 2009 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

UNTLifer · March 6, 2009

I guess I read it as the AD has only raised about $8 million to this point, which is about as much as RV has raised. The article doesn't state who got the city of Carbondale to put the tax to a vote, could have been the school president for all I know. I read your statement as another shot at RV when I see RV raising the same amount of money in private donations as the SIU AD.

Now if you want to include the student fee in this, I would say RV has raised $33 million in student fees plus whatever our current total in private donations is, let's say $6 million. The only thing missing is the tax from the City of Denton and if you think they'll contribute, well, you'll be building snowmen in Hell before that occurs.

Green Dozer · March 6, 2009

I fail to see your logic. The football operating budget reported is the third highest in the Belt, hardly non-competitive. There are few schools that make money on football and none I assure you in the Belt. While the expenditure data reported looks relatively reasonable, the revenue certainly does not. For example, FIU reported over 6.4m in football revenues. Care to speculate, how they generated that kind of funds with the lowest attendance in the nation. It is obvious that most schools
included non-operating funds as revenues such as state contributions and the biggest factor, student fees. NT in this set of numbers did not. NT's athletes operating deficits are covered from transfers from general funds which are primarily student funds.
As far as how you fund athletes post-stadium, the same way NT does now along with the majority of schools; with a heavy reliance on student fees. The additional athletic fee should add about $6m annually to the coffers and far as I know any shortfalls can still be covered by general funds. There have been no reductions in other student fees that make up the majority of these funds. The stadium should raise MGC donations, not the reverse. The majority of MGC donations are connected with ticket purchase requirements for certain sections of the stadium. I would expect that there will bigger requirements in the new stadium as well as expanded seating that require donations.
You are correct, if NT ever expects to move up in the NCAA pecking order it is imperative that NT begin to develop increased funding through other sources than students. NT can limp along as it has for decades, but a big push is needed to get NT to the next tier of college athletics.

Hey Grand Green, never said my post was logical (LOL). We spend and lose the most in regards to revenues vs. expenses. No the other schools are not making money, but Florida Atlantic is the next closes with losses over $1 million, and we lose 1.5 million more than them. The rest are under $1 million. Here it is again: Other Schools in our conf. and their losses: Ark St.: even Fla Atlantic: $1,212,733, Fla Intl: $560,231 Mid. Tn.: Even Troy: $88,935 ULL: $57,208 ULM: $940,753 W Ky.:Even. We are having to get more money when we rob Paul to pay Peter is my point. The student fee is going to help fund the stadium, but some of it has to go to other parts of the athletic program, and I know you realize that. You can have bigger requirements for seating, but if there is not improvement in the product on the field, the casual fan will not pay, and we don't have enough diehards to make up for that. Oh, you will see a jump in the first couple of years, but unless something takes hold, that will taper off. A lot of the potential new donors are now from the 80's and 90's, and in my opinion, are alienated because of previous admin's attitude toward athletics. Having served in fundraisers before, and seen this type of attitude first hand, there will be people who will make lessor donations to the MGC, because they are giving to the stadium.

Some things have got to change!

Edited March 6, 2009 by Green Dozer

Green Dozer · March 6, 2009

I guess I read it as the AD has only raised about $8 million to this point, which is about as much as RV has raised. The article doesn't state who got the city of Carbondale to put the tax to a vote, could have been the school president for all I know. I read your statement as another shot at RV when I see RV raising the same amount of money in private donations as the SIU AD.
Now if you want to include the student fee in this, I would say RV has raised $33 million in student fees plus whatever our current total in private donations is, let's say $6 million. The only thing missing is the tax from the City of Denton and if you think they'll contribute, well, you'll be building snowmen in Hell before that occurs.

Lifer, agree with you about the City of Denton. Knowing the mayor personally, I can guarantee you he has no intentions for the current council to do anything in the way of the city contributing, through a tax or otherwise, to this project. It just not fit his agenda. And the tide definitely has not turned for the voters in Denton to support this project. There has not been one positive letter regarding the stadium to the editor of our local paper from a "Denton" person. I believe a member of this board did write one, but he was from Argyle.

wardly · March 7, 2009

the bottom line is that when it comes to alumni giving, the " mean green " becomes the "lean green." aproximately 98% of our grads are all mouth and no money, and its not the exclusive responsibility of the administration to raise funds. we need to put up or shut up, and my guess is that we will do neither. we have an underfunded athletic program, and will continue to until we individually accept responsibility and pay something back to the university.

GrandGreen · March 7, 2009

Hey Grand Green, never said my post was logical (LOL). We spend and lose the most in regards to revenues vs. expenses. No the other schools are not making money, but Florida Atlantic is the next closes with losses over $1 million, and we lose 1.5 million more than them. The rest are under $1 million. Here it is again: Other Schools in our conf. and their losses: Ark St.: even Fla Atlantic: $1,212,733, Fla Intl: $560,231 Mid. Tn.: Even Troy: $88,935 ULL: $57,208 ULM: $940,753 W Ky.:Even. We are having to get more money when we rob Paul to pay Peter is my point. The student fee is going to help fund the stadium, but some of it has to go to other parts of the athletic program, and I know you realize that. You can have bigger requirements for seating, but if there is not improvement in the product on the field, the casual fan will not pay, and we don't have enough diehards to make up for that. Oh, you will see a jump in the first couple of years, but unless something takes hold, that will taper off. A lot of the potential new donors are now from the 80's and 90's, and in my opinion, are alienated because of previous admin's attitude toward athletics. Having served in fundraisers before, and seen this type of attitude first hand, there will be people who will make lessor donations to the MGC, because they are giving to the stadium.
Some things have got to change!

I guess I was not clear. The other Belt schools that you are comparing have non-operating revenue (ie: student funds, state funds) included in their revenues; NT does not. You are comparing apples and oranges. If you want to add NT's student fees as revenues like the other schools have done than NT would also come out miraculously at break even. If you could compare NT's performance with other Belt teams, matching operating revenue (ie; promotion fees, guarantees, tickets sales, direct donations, etc) with operating expenses, I think you would quickly see that NT is a lot closer to the top in financial performance than the bottom in the conference.

There is not a school in the Belt and few in the nation that do not rely heavily on student funds. In addition as far as I know, all the other Belt schools also receive direct State funding for athletics, something that is prohibited in Texas. As far as people giving less to the GMG, that may happen but if they want to retain comparable seating they will have to continue to pay up. I can't visualize a lot of fans donating to a stadium fund that do not attend the games or sitting in less desirable locations.

Yes there are a few alums that are alienated by the University, but a far greater problem is that most just don't care about NT athletics at all. With the continued domination of the sports scene by pro sports and to a lesser degree, the super conference college teams, it is obviously getting tougher and tougher for the vast majority of schools to compete. Instead of the universities trying to band together to curtail the stupid athletic arms race, universally they continue to try to match the escalation.

oldguystudent · March 7, 2009

the bottom line is that when it comes to alumni giving, the " mean green " becomes the "lean green." aproximately 98% of our grads are all mouth and no money, and its not the exclusive responsibility of the administration to raise funds. we need to put up or shut up, and my guess is that we will do neither. we have an underfunded athletic program, and will continue to until we individually accept responsibility and pay something back to the university.

Look at the alumni. Almost every serious donor I know is a graduate of the business school. So we've got that going for us. Then there's those kickass doctors, lawyers, scientists. Oh, wait. There's a reason they're called starving artists.

UNTflyer · March 7, 2009

Look at the alumni. Almost every serious donor I know is a graduate of the business school. So we've got that going for us. Then there's those kickass doctors, lawyers, scientists. Oh, wait. There's a reason they're called starving artists.

Most people are shocked when I tell them UNT has a medical school in Ft. Worth, including students. UNT needs a pre-med major desperately.

"Named as one of the nation's top 50 medical schools for primary care by U.S. News and World Report and the only osteopathic medical school in the state, TCOM is a leader in training physicians skilled in comprehensive primary care and rural medicine. Approximately 65 percent of TCOM's graduates practice primary care medicine"

FirefightnRick · March 7, 2009

Universities, especially North Texas, do not cover or match their athletic budget with REVENUE monies. NT's athletic department operates within it's budget every year.

Rick

Green Dozer · March 7, 2009

Most people are shocked when I tell them UNT has a medical school in Ft. Worth, including students. UNT needs a pre-med major desperately.
"Named as one of the nation's top 50 medical schools for primary care by U.S. News and World Report and the only osteopathic medical school in the state, TCOM is a leader in training physicians skilled in comprehensive primary care and rural medicine. Approximately 65 percent of TCOM's graduates practice primary care medicine"

Flyer, the only problem is that osteopath doctors don't make the big bucks like their MD counterparts. From an economic point, OD's tend to serve a mostly lower class of folks, are not considered as and most people see want to see an MD. You can get a pre-med at UNT, and their have there have been several folks over the years that have gotten one here. Quite a few from Denton that I have known. The challenge is that the ones that do go to a UT med school, A&M, etc., and upon graduation consider themselves a Longhorn or Aggie. Not taking anything away from OD's, they work their butts off. We need more professional schools within the university such as law, pharmacy, nursing, and higher end engineering (areospace, defense, etc.). It seems the business school puts out a lot of successful mid management folks, but we do not enough high paid CEO's to make a big difference.

UNT90 · March 7, 2009

No one knows what is being done to raise money for the stadium. I'm going to wait until after UNT gets approval from the state legislature to see what fundraising campaign is undertaken before yelling for the AD's head. No one knows what is going on behind the scenes. No need to try and speculate, after all, Spring football is here.