Just To Get This Off My Chest

eulessismore · February 23, 2009

One of the guys I've met through the forum mentioned that some of the football players (at least one from defense) was standing behind the two of us in the line at the concession stand at the UALR game Saturday night and noticed me talking football; with some awkwardness (not noticed by myself at the time) created for him and those players. As I recall, what I said was something to the effect that I was looking forward to football next year; posed the question as to whether there would be a real competition for QB, with my opinion being that I would like to see that, and that I liked Nathan Tune. Then I said that that was based on seeing him play, but in limited time coming off the bench, and that a lot of quarterbacks coming off the bench, and (this is the part I think could be seen as a slam against our recent defenders), that "those coming off the bench against us looked good". I'd have to say that this was kind of lame for me to say, especially in situations like a basketball game, where some of our football players will of course be attending, and having to hear us fans say whatever we will when we're around a North Texas athletic event. A couple of things by way of explanation:

We do have a couple (at least; I don't know the history of all our players now or previously quarterbacks) of guys on the team who have who quarterbacked state championship football teams; Riley Dodge and Nathan Tune. I certainly thought Riley was impressive as SLC QB, as well as showing noticeable speed at WR when he was playing this year. His injury history does concern me, as he certainly was given the diagnosis of concussion after the Rice game, and more is becoming known about the accumulative effect of concussions suffered by football players; this may be something that bears watching. I also thought Nathan, in the one chance I saw for him to throw the ball (and he did lead us to a touchdown in a game where, offensively, nothing was really clicking for us, and I felt he showed some poise. However, I think there may be reasons why our (and other teams') quarterbacks coming off the bench may look good, whether it's that they're rested, the opposing defense hasn't had much chance to study film on them or any number of reasons that I know too little about football to guess.

The other thing; I don't, and I don't think anyone else on here, seriously thinks our defensive players were to blame for the state of our defensive play for the last couple of years, although I do think it's the responsibility of the head coach, the strength and conditioning coach, those coaching special teams, the defensive coaches, and the defensive players to do better next year. In 2007, against mostly the same teams, and returning mostly the same (8 players?) starting defense, we did much worse, near, if not at the bottom of FBS schools, than the previous year, when we were somewhere in the middle. I'd have to consider the dropoff in college level defensive coaching as a likely explanation for that year (at the expense of making too obvious of a point), since some of those leaving here then went on to coach successfully elsewhere. In 2008, many of us felt we had good reason to be more optimistic, with the return of a defensive coordinator who had been quite successful at UNT in the recent past; however, we seemed to overlook the fact that we had lost most (all?) of those starters from the 2006 team to graduation or otherwise leaving the program. That's not all bad of course, since we want our players to graduate. And, being from Euless, I had wanted Jordan Scoggins to succeed in converting to a defensive tackle (and I don't know exactly why he left the program), and knowing about Tevinn Cantly from his being a friend of a coworkers family, wanted him to at least gain some needed weight and strength from our conditioning program as a redshirt, without realizing we had no football specific strength/conditioning coach. To Dodge's credit at this point (and I think even his harshest critics here have expressed confidence in the strength and DT coach hires), he seems to have filled out his defensive coaching side with coaches having real accomplishments, whose talents address specific needs. Also, I think we have reason to be optimistic about some of the defensive players who will be playing for either their first or second time next year, whether sophomores, coming off a redshirt year, possibly starting as true freshmen, or transferring from JUCO's. And, at least some of those who did start as underclassmen will have needed experience.

You may notice I'm not saying Dodge was entirely responsible for losing all our previous assistant coaches and that experience gap; someone here mentioned it was strongly recommended to him that he not retain any of them. I don't really know what did happen before; by now, I think Brett Vito has been shown to be correct in saying that Dodge won't be hiring any more assistants from the high school ranks. His recent hires seem to be well thought through. As to whether I, any other members of this forum, or the players themselves have any reason to point blame at the athletes on the defensive side (especially those leaving after 2007 and 2008, who by and large have represented us very well in a difficult situation), that is a stretch that none of us should make. I have reason to believe we can have a noticeably improved defensive unit (and more wins) next year, and for the foreseeable future; Go Mean Green!

My apologies for the rambling nature of this; hey I'm no Brett Vito or Troy Phillips!

Dwayne Taylor,

Class of 1977

Edited February 23, 2009 by eulessismore

The Fake Lonnie Finch · February 23, 2009

So, in street clothes, our football players didn't appear to be football players? That's what it sounds like.

Look, some of your points have been discussed before. As to the defense in 2007:

(1) Before that season, most of us believed that would be a strength, due to the returning of nine guys from a middle-of-the-pack type defense.

(2) Doubts were raised when no adjustments were made during the OU game, and rarely thereafter. Schemes do matter.

(3) Doubts about so many high school coaches were underscored as the defense was scorched throughout the season.

(4) To exacerbate things, the DB coach that year hadn't coached antwhere at any level, high school or college, in 13 years. That raised real doubts about whether or not Todd Dodge had a grip on what he was doing.

As to the 2008 defense:

(1) You can check back and see that in July and August, many of us posted that we should tap the break a little of the Deloach as Jesus concept because there were going to be a tons of new faces on that side of the ball.

(2) Whether or not the scheme was right in 2008, we don't know because the play was so undisciplined. That's to be expected from a team with nine or so new starters.

(3) Candidly, though, it would seem that if Dodge were really recruiting better all around athletes, the sheer number of big plays would have dropped. They didn't. The speed he is said to have recruited apparently isn't showing up on game day.

Overall, whether he ever comes right out and admits it or not, Dodge isn't satisfied with the progression of his first two classes either. If he were, he wouldn't have been pounding the JUCOs so hard this time around. I think this demostrates that he didn't quite understand the speed level of FBS-level college football on either side of the ball. I'd also say that it isn't a stretch to suggest that he took special teams play for granted.

I mean, our butts were handed to us in dramatic fashion by FIU, another school under a second year coach with only two of his own recruiting classes. We ended their long losing streak in 2007; then, the came here and pounded us in 2008. Just another second year coach, with a roster full of guys who had produced winless seasons, and a couple of recruiting classes. Yet, somehow, his teams weren't being blown out in his second year - and actually playing the Big East's South Florida to a 17-9 final.

One thing we do know is this - there are no more high school coaches or businessmen on the defensive side of the ball. And, there are players with lots of game experience. Therefore, this year, there will be no excuse for getting blown out - with the exception of the Alabama game. If teams are running it up on us in 2009 the way they did in 2007 and 2008, there will be no defense of any coach on the staff - no matter what their background was before they arrived in Denton.

Edited February 23, 2009 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

Green Dozer · February 26, 2009

So, in street clothes, our football players didn't appear to be football players? That's what it sounds like.
Look, some of your points have been discussed before. As to the defense in 2007:
(1) Before that season, most of us believed that would be a strength, due to the returning of nine guys from a middle-of-the-pack type defense.
(2) Doubts were raised when no adjustments were made during the OU game, and rarely thereafter. Schemes do matter.
(3) Doubts about so many high school coaches were underscored as the defense was scorched throughout the season.
(4) To exacerbate things, the DB coach that year hadn't coached antwhere at any level, high school or college, in 13 years. That raised real doubts about whether or not Todd Dodge had a grip on what he was doing.
As to the 2008 defense:
(1) You can check back and see that in July and August, many of us posted that we should tap the break a little of the Deloach as Jesus concept because there were going to be a tons of new faces on that side of the ball.
(2) Whether or not the scheme was right in 2008, we don't know because the play was so undisciplined. That's to be expected from a team with nine or so new starters.
(3) Candidly, though, it would seem that if Dodge were really recruiting better all around athletes, the sheer number of big plays would have dropped. They didn't. The speed he is said to have recruited apparently isn't showing up on game day.
Overall, whether he ever comes right out and admits it or not, Dodge isn't satisfied with the progression of his first two classes either. If he were, he wouldn't have been pounding the JUCOs so hard this time around. I think this demostrates that he didn't quite understand the speed level of FBS-level college football on either side of the ball. I'd also say that it isn't a stretch to suggest that he took special teams play for granted.
I mean, our butts were handed to us in dramatic fashion by FIU, another school under a second year coach with only two of his own recruiting classes. We ended their long losing streak in 2007; then, the came here and pounded us in 2008. Just another second year coach, with a roster full of guys who had produced winless seasons, and a couple of recruiting classes. Yet, somehow, his teams weren't being blown out in his second year - and actually playing the Big East's South Florida to a 17-9 final.
One thing we do know is this - there are no more high school coaches or businessmen on the defensive side of the ball. And, there are players with lots of game experience. Therefore, this year, there will be no excuse for getting blown out - with the exception of the Alabama game. If teams are running it up on us in 2009 the way they did in 2007 and 2008, there will be no defense of any coach on the staff - no matter what their background was before they arrived in Denton.

Lonnie,

Our players DO NOT LOOK LIKE DIV. 1 COLLEGE FOOTBALL players in street clothes. FAU and FIU has looked pretty big to me, compared to us, over the last few years. I would be courious as to how we match up size wise with all these other successful programs you seemed to hold our standards to. I think the addition of a dedicated strength coach will do us wonders. Bet the Cardinals did not have much of one in Arizona until our own John Lott got there, and looked what happened. Dodge wanted a dedicated strength coach from the beginning, but was told "no". All things are not all his fault.

The Fake Lonnie Finch · February 26, 2009

Lonnie,
Our players DO NOT LOOK LIKE DIV. 1 COLLEGE FOOTBALL players in street clothes. FAU and FIU has looked pretty big to me, compared to us, over the last few years. I would be courious as to how we match up size wise with all these other successful programs you seemed to hold our standards to. I think the addition of a dedicated strength coach will do us wonders. Bet the Cardinals did not have much of one in Arizona until our own John Lott got there, and looked what happened. Dodge wanted a dedicated strength coach from the beginning, but was told "no". All things are not all his fault.

No, but the things within his control have been his fault. Think about this - the 2007 defensive coordinator came straight from high school with no college background whatsoever. Same with the DL coach. The secondary coach hadn't coached in 13 years. The high school DL coach was also allowed to coach the special teams.

Those who have always supported Dodge from day one will say, well, hindsight is 20/20. Yes, true. But, many of us were sounding the warning well before that. Football isn't just football at all levels. And, coaching isn't just coaching at all levels.

Todd Dodge sorely misunderstood that in December 2006. He's the one who brought in a coaching staff with so few college skins on the wall. He's the one who put off recruiting until after Southlakes's season was over. He's also the one who has held over the offensive high school coaches despite the fact that the only two seemingly able to do their job are the guys who had college experience (Gandy and Leftwich).

Look, we all want UNT to win. But, you can't hide from the fact that the hire of Dodge was high risk, and his recruiting inaction at the beginning and lack of thought in the hiring process put the whole thing even that much more behind the eight ball.

Personally, I think it's great that we finally have the defensive side of the ball now being led by 100% college coaches. That will show this year. I also think special teams will improve vastly because Dodge has finally put a college guy in charge of it.

Those moves alone should be good for two or three wins even if the offense doesn't show up at all. One of the overarching points is, alot of the losses and blowouts and off the field problems could have been avoided in the first place had a college coach been hired - or at least a full complement of college assistants.

Edited February 26, 2009 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

untcampbell · February 26, 2009

TFLF, so let's say that your view(s?) is completely correct (and I would certainly offer that it is hard to argue with some of the stuff you put out there....I just tend to disagree with your method/forum for delivery).

I have worked in several companies where someone was hired, who would assume a job that was superior to mine, that was ill-equipped for the job.

Whose fault is that? Do you fault a guy for over-selling himself in the interview? What did he over-sell? His previous role here and familiarity with the 'challenges' faced by anyone who takes a HC job at NT? His numerous 5A Championships and leadership of an elite football program? Or do you fault the guy who hired someone not ready for the job (if in fact that is what we are assuming here)? Why not spend most of your time going after the guy who hired him?

Maybe not you, but many will acknowledge that Dodge's hire was accompanied by a "splash" of publicity that NT rarely enjoys. One could further argue that, even in the troubled times in which our football program finds itself, we are ahead of where we would be with a mediocre, no-name uninspired college-experienced coach, the type of hire that we can typically afford, i.e. Dickey, Simon, Tyler, etc. Had that been the case, there would have been considerably less publicity at hire, less than 5000 at the first Spring game, less attendance than we saw during season one, even season two, and a couple of 2-10, 3-9 seasons (my guess).

I think that Dodge may admit he was a bit over his head for the job when he got here. He would probably ask for some do-overs on his coaching hires (he realizes he would have benefitted from the added expertise that seasoned college coaches would have provided). He would be more likely to mold his system to his talent.

Those who don't like Dodge will probably disagree with most of my assumptions, but I will tell you that Dodge has grown in this position. I admire a guy that has gone through much adversity and still believes he can get the job done, doing his job with relentless passion and no-quit. He will be better. And maybe on-the-job training is the best some "companies" can afford, especially when that hire comes with the publicity this hire did.

Frankly, other than those who post on this board, my guess is that most of the vaunted 100,000 metroplex alumni of our beloved alma mater haven't noticed how NT has done the last two years vs. say the previous 25-30 years (other than the 4 years of Bowl gatherings in NOLa). We have been in a very mediocre place for a LONG time. The fact that Dodge didn't turn it around in his first two seasons wasn't noticed by most. I believe that Dodge will be remembered more for what happens in the next few years than what has happened in the first two.

I will keep my list of excuses for him to a minimum. Just as those who don't like him rehash their arguments over and over again, those of us that pull for the guy have made our case endlessly.

We can only move forward, and I think we are positioned to do so.

GMG

Scott Campbell

Warned to 20%

Flower Mound, TX

Class of 1982

The Fake Lonnie Finch · February 27, 2009

Campbell,

If you perform a search, you'll find that RV, the Board, and Bataille for the hire. I expect RV to be held accountable if it keeps tanking. I've said that several times.

In this thread my response was to counter the original post which minimized Dodge's blame for the first two seasons. I don't think you can mimmalize it at all - he's the guy who's been calling the shots since December 2006.

And, if Dodge would admit to his mistakes, then I would easily believe that he believes he made mistakes. As it is, he has never said anything other than he misjudged the speed and talent in the secondaries at this level. His reluctance to make changes are proof enough to me that he doesn't believe that the thing that have gone wrong are his fault.

His offense was less effective in the second year than in the first, and yet he changed no staff on that side of the ball - despite having almost 100% of the starters and subs returning. To me, that's simply ignoring the obvious reality.

In short, I believe that he still believes his press clipping from Southlake, RV still believes his press clippings from Southlake, the Board still ignores the program, and Bataille wouldn't know the difference one way or the other.

As posted before, the full compliment of college-experienced defensive coaches and putting Gandy in charge of special teams will greatly improve our chances of winning more than two games - even if Dodge and the high school coaches on the other side of the ball are still screwing up.

NT80 · February 27, 2009

Campbell,
If you perform a search, you'll find that RV, the Board, and Bataille for the hire. I expect RV to be held accountable if it keeps tanking. I've said that several times.
In this thread my response was to counter the original post which minimized Dodge's blame for the first two seasons. I don't think you can mimmalize it at all - he's the guy who's been calling the shots since December 2006.
And, if Dodge would admit to his mistakes, then I would easily believe that he believes he made mistakes. As it is, he has never said anything other than he misjudged the speed and talent in the secondaries at this level. His reluctance to make changes are proof enough to me that he doesn't believe that the thing that have gone wrong are his fault.
His offense was less effective in the second year than in the first, and yet he changed no staff on that side of the ball - despite having almost 100% of the starters and subs returning. To me, that's simply ignoring the obvious reality.
In short, I believe that he still believes his press clipping from Southlake, RV still believes his press clippings from Southlake, the Board still ignores the program, and Bataille wouldn't know the difference one way or the other.
As posted before, the full compliment of college-experienced defensive coaches and putting Gandy in charge of special teams will greatly improve our chances of winning more than two games - even if Dodge and the high school coaches on the other side of the ball are still screwing up.

I think Dodge is admitting some mistakes by some of the changes he is making, mostly to his coaching staff's college experience level and defensive schemes. There seemed to be an overly extended period of transitioning players from old coach to new coach and cleaning house at the same time. Two seasons of many changes must bring some results this year. I hold Dodge accountable for the wins and losses and RV accountable for making a change if the first doesn't show improvement this year. <_<

eulessismore · February 27, 2009

Campbell,
If you perform a search, you'll find that RV, the Board, and Bataille for the hire. I expect RV to be held accountable if it keeps tanking. I've said that several times.
In this thread my response was to counter the original post which minimized Dodge's blame for the first two seasons. I don't think you can mimmalize it at all - he's the guy who's been calling the shots since December 2006.
And, if Dodge would admit to his mistakes, then I would easily believe that he believes he made mistakes. As it is, he has never said anything other than he misjudged the speed and talent in the secondaries at this level. His reluctance to make changes are proof enough to me that he doesn't believe that the thing that have gone wrong are his fault.
His offense was less effective in the second year than in the first, and yet he changed no staff on that side of the ball - despite having almost 100% of the starters and subs returning. To me, that's simply ignoring the obvious reality.
In short, I believe that he still believes his press clipping from Southlake, RV still believes his press clippings from Southlake, the Board still ignores the program, and Bataille wouldn't know the difference one way or the other.
As posted before, the full compliment of college-experienced defensive coaches and putting Gandy in charge of special teams will greatly improve our chances of winning more than two games - even if Dodge and the high school coaches on the other side of the ball are still screwing up.

Of course, you'll characterize my OP however you want, and always do. My statement was that "I'm not saying Dodge was entirely responsible for losing all our previous assistant coaches and that experience gap; someone here mentioned it was strongly recommended to him that he not retain any of them". Since Dodge did hire Leftwich WITH college level coaching experience AT UNT (among other schools, but NOT from Dickey's staff, I think there's some possibility that it's true.

My major points, and you didn't seem to read well enough to get it, were that (1.) that it was circumstances other than the defensive players who were here at the time that Dodge arrived, SUCH AS THE DEPARTURE OF THE EXPERIENCED COACHES ALREADY HERE (maybe you can read it now) responsible for the defensive play for Dodge's first two seasons, and (2.) THINGS SEEM TO BE HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION IN TERMS OF THE DEFENSIVE COACHES WE HAVE NOW (again, the all caps are me trying to help you read, and you seemed to agree with the basic premise there. Really Lonnie, I put the thread up for the benefit of persons other than yourself, the players on the defensive side who have needed better coaching in the last couple of years, and now seem like they'll get that coaching they need.