Gotta Love Those Democrats

[DeepGreen]

Where do I start. Timothy Geithners, Secretary of the Treasury, failed to pay $34,000 in income taxes. Now the beloved Tom Daschle, Health Secretary elect, "forgot" to pay $140,000(including interest) in taxes? WTF kind of people are running this government? Where's the outcry? Had these guys been Republicans they would have been grilled "out of Washington" by a congressional hearing.

And puleese, don't blame this one on George Bush!

[Guest JohnDenver]

Where do I start. Timothy Geithners, Secretary of the Treasury, failed to pay $34,000 in income taxes. Now the beloved Tom Daschle, Health Secretary elect, "forgot" to pay $140,000(including interest) in taxes? WTF kind of people are running this government? Where's the outcry? Had these guys been Republicans they would have been grilled "out of Washington" by a congressional hearing.

And puleese, don't blame this one on George Bush!

The "if it were _____" chip on shoulder argument is weak. Makes me shut down my listeners...

Outcry? How about it is on the front page of every website and newspaper? It isn't like it is buried and ignored.

But I do agree, it is pathetic that they can't keep up with their taxes. I do think it is blatant and speaks to their ethical compass.

However, being on the end of messing up taxes TWICE, I see how it happens. IRS code is insane. Sending me 10 documents from 10 different companies that I have to put together and figure out vague terms like "Cost basis" ... and then having to see if it is listed under some other name on my W2.. well... is a whipping and easy to mess up. I know how mess ups happen, pay the fee, and try to not do it again.

Sometimes it takes the IRS YEARS to get to you... and audit you... Maybe it was a mistake. It is easy to do with taxes.

[emmitt01]

The "if it were _____" chip on shoulder argument is weak. Makes me shut down my listeners...

Outcry? How about it is on the front page of every website and newspaper? It isn't like it is buried and ignored.

But I do agree, it is pathetic that they can't keep up with their taxes. I do think it is blatant and speaks to their ethical compass.

However, being on the end of messing up taxes TWICE, I see how it happens. IRS code is insane. Sending me 10 documents from 10 different companies that I have to put together and figure out vague terms like "Cost basis" ... and then having to see if it is listed under some other name on my W2.. well... is a whipping and easy to mess up. I know how mess ups happen, pay the fee, and try to not do it again.

Sometimes it takes the IRS YEARS to get to you... and audit you... Maybe it was a mistake. It is easy to do with taxes.

Impossible. We simply must find reasons that this administration could be half as f'ed up as the last one. We must achieve balance!

[MDH]

IRS code hard to understand?? All you need to do is get your masters in tax and you're half way there

[meangreendork]

IRS code hard to understand?? All you need to do is get your masters in tax and you're half way there

Hey, Tax Masters is legit. That obese redhaired man tells me his team of former IRS professionals something something fixing my back taxes something something.

[KRAM1]

Hey even Turbo Tax would have "caught" the fact that taxes were due! Only reason these folks are sorry is that they got caught...sort of like how sorry Michael Phelps is that he was "caught" with the bong! You think Phelps would have apologized and admitted his "youthful mistake" if he had not been caught? Not a chance!

Yep, this is what I call bringing "integrity" back to Washington. You go Obama, I am interested in seeing some more of your "decision making"...oh, I forgot the SPENDING BILL you are trying to pass on on the public as a STIMULUS BILL! What a joke...a very bad one as it will saddle the nation with a great tax burden for many many years to come. But, there mat be hope...it was reported last evening on the news that only 38% of the nation "approved" of the tax and spend bill as it is currently written. Hmmmmmmm...do I see a "major defeat" for Mr. Obama this early in his term, or will he "announce victory" even after the bill is significantly changed? Can't wait to see. Well, gee, he did score that hugh victory by getting the switch to digital TV put off until June. I wonder who in the heck in this country was NOT aware of the switch and the date for it? The whole country waits on a few stupid folks who "don't get it" and will never be prepared for anything on time. Oh, I get it...it's the same folks who voted for him in the first place! OK, just kidding about that last comment.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Where do I start. Timothy Geithners, Secretary of the Treasury, failed to pay $34,000 in income taxes. Now the beloved Tom Daschle, Health Secretary elect, "forgot" to pay $140,000(including interest) in taxes? WTF kind of people are running this government? Where's the outcry? Had these guys been Republicans they would have been grilled "out of Washington" by a congressional hearing.

And puleese, don't blame this one on George Bush!

--George Bush should have hired more IRS people to review tax forms instead of cutting them back... Therefore it is his fault.....LOL

---Some of these are not exactly as the first appear. I believe the Treasury Secretary was paid internationally as a consultant and did not realize he was to pay social security or self-employment tax on that since it not earned in America. Daschle may be a problem but where does one that stop... I know a lot of oil people who are furnished a company car that use it like it is their own car and drive it all over town and even drive out of town with it. Should that be taxable income as transportation? ..do they owe income tax on that... and even worse does someone owes social security taxes in addition since it is income. Not sure the oil company wants to anti that up. My son has gotten free golf games from work and even expensive tickets to professional games in Dallas... is that taxable and should his company come up with more social security payments. No doubt there are problems with above politicians but a lot of these situations open up a lot of cans of worms for everyone. Preachers and some school administrators have furnished cars and some times they are used for things personal that are not in their line of work.... taxable??? not so easy of any issue to determine and how much..

---Don't just think this is going on in one party....There are a lot of Senators and Representatives getting odd benefits. [trips to sports games and golf courses ..aka conferences] The deal is that the standards and investigation is much higher than in the past.... I do mean for both parties in the past. Both McCain and Obama campaigned on this issue and wanting to cut some of these questionable benefits out. As for Daschle... he received no cash ...just limo service which they have now ruled as income and taxable.. .

---If they had been Republicans or Democrats in the past, most of this would been ignored. Both candidates, McCain and Obama, were fed up with what has been going on and all of pork and earmarks (really bad the last 8 years). True the bridge to no-where wasn't built but the road to no-where which led to it (on the other side and can't be accessed by ground) was with Palin's blessing.

--Be careful what you complain about... it might bite you.... if you have a job that you get some odd benefits that might be considered taxable in the future... or maybe should now apparently.

____________________________

How are those Bush cuts in FDA food inspectors working out ???? (see peanuts, tomatoes and others)

He wanted less government employees... both the FDA (food) and CDC (disease control) were cut...

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dl...68/1013/48HOURS

Between 2003 and 2006, FDA food safety inspections dropped 47 percent, according to a database analysis of federal records by the Associated Press. The analysis also shows that there are now 12 percent fewer FDA employees in field offices who concentrate on food issues and that safety tests for U.S.-produced food have dropped nearly 75 percent, from 9,748 in 2003 to 2,455 last year, according to the agency's own statistics

Edited February 6, 2009 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[KRAM1]

Now we know why all the Democrats can ever come up with is to raise taxes. Heck, they don't pay taxes, so why not raise them on everyone else? AMAZING, simply amazing! And, these folks want to run the country?????

How about some coursework in economics and finance???? Check out today's congress...I don't think there is an economist in the group. Maybe, but I can't think of one. Where is UNT's own Dick Armey when you need him?

[meangreendork]

Now we know why all the Democrats can ever come up with is to raise taxes. Heck, they don't pay taxes, so why not raise them on everyone else? AMAZING, simply amazing! And, these folks want to run the country?????

How about some coursework in economics and finance???? Check out today's congress...I don't think there is an economist in the group. Maybe, but I can't think of one. Where is UNT's own Dick Armey when you need him?

Hey, by your brilliant logic, I guess the best solution is to drop taxes on those who don't pay taxes on their businesses. better to skip out on millions of dollars in biz taxes than just a few tens-of-thousands to hundreds-of-thousands, right?

Oh.

I also seem to have forgotten my EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF NEEDLESS PUNCTUATION AND GRAMMAR MARKS !:;"''''--,...!?!..,!?':l'''!:;!@*&^&(@}{|||][\\|||$!&*%@?!?!

(All trolling aside, Daschle bowed out, Obama admitted to messing up the selection process. Here's hoping him and his team do better research than this last time around.)

[KRAM1]

Meangreendork. I guess you slept through economics class, right? BASIC econ...if you want to raise tax revenues you LOWER TAXES. Businesses do pay taxes...they even create jobs and pay people salaries who are in turn susposed to pay taxes on those wages. If you could every get over your "feelings and hatred for folks who make above min. wage", you would realize that there in no excuse for not paying taxes due. Just because someone else "got away with it" is no reason for you to skip out and it does not justify the evading of taxes.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with doing all you can to reduce your tax liability...either as a business or an individual...tax "avoidance" is perfectly legal...tax "evasion" is against the law.

Wall Street Journal today has a great "ad" published by the Cato Institute about the Obama "non"-Stimulus package (really nothing more than a tax and spend program" of the highest magnitude) and signed by a great many economists at many of this nation's best universities refuting this tax and spend mentatlity"...check it out. You might even recognize a few of the folks who signed the "letter".

Karl marx would be so very proud of this new administration in Washington these days...if you think not, take a look at what the Obama Administration is proposing with regard to the "death tax" here in the good ole US of A. Taking a page right out of Marx's book!

Hang on folks...it is going to be an interesting ride for the next four years.

[GreenMachine]

If you could every get over your "feelings and hatred for folks who make above min. wage",

you are so right on here. Not pointing the finger at anybody in particular but I feel there are a lot of people on here that don't make much money at all and they are just bitter at people that are more well of than they are. But this is America where you can set your sights high and strive to achieve your goals.

Edited February 9, 2009 by GreenMachine

[Quoner]

you are so right on here. Not pointing the finger at anybody in particular but I feel there are a lot of people on here that don't make much money at all and they are just bitter at people that are more well of than they are. But this is America where you can set your sights high and strive to achieve your goals.

Most of the athletic department staff?

[meangreendork]

Meangreendork. I guess you slept through economics class, right? BASIC econ...if you want to raise tax revenues you LOWER TAXES. Businesses do pay taxes...they even create jobs and pay people salaries who are in turn susposed to pay taxes on those wages. If you could every get over your "feelings and hatred for folks who make above min. wage", you would realize that there in no excuse for not paying taxes due. Just because someone else "got away with it" is no reason for you to skip out and it does not justify the evading of taxes.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with doing all you can to reduce your tax liability...either as a business or an individual...tax "avoidance" is perfectly legal...tax "evasion" is against the law.

Wall Street Journal today has a great "ad" published by the Cato Institute about the Obama "non"-Stimulus package (really nothing more than a tax and spend program" of the highest magnitude) and signed by a great many economists at many of this nation's best universities refuting this tax and spend mentatlity"...check it out. You might even recognize a few of the folks who signed the "letter".

Karl marx would be so very proud of this new administration in Washington these days...if you think not, take a look at what the Obama Administration is proposing with regard to the "death tax" here in the good ole US of A. Taking a page right out of Marx's book!

Hang on folks...it is going to be an interesting ride for the next four years.

I did well in macro, actually. That is, until we had to do the math, and well...I don't much like math.

But you're also missing the point - plenty of major businesses dodge taxes the same way that lots of politicians do, and that's something that ugly on both sides of the fence. Many of the tax holes for businesses are often exploited with sums adding up to grand amounts of money. Tax shelters, by themselves, encourage growth and enterprise. But if they're exploited, it's like a kid exploiting a money glitch in a video game. The only difference between that and a politician bailing on taxes is how legal it may or may not be.

Tax codes need to be looked at all over again, much like this stimulus thing needs to be looked at again. Even with all the junk that was cut out, there are still things that need to be dropped or revised. And with 100s of pages of crap to read through, I'd prefer that Obama not be in such a rush to get this thing off the ground since there's a ton of money at stake and the last president that rushed off with a giant decision in his hands started up a war in Iraq that ended up having to be fixed in grand scale.

And that "hatred for folks who make above min wage" line was well, poorly informed. Last I checked, I eclipsed the minimum wage mark at the age of 16, and haven't looked back since.

But hey, you choose your own reading comprehension fantasy.

[yyz28]

But you're also missing the point - plenty of major businesses dodge taxes the same way that lots of politicians do, and that's something that ugly on both sides of the fence. Many of the tax holes for businesses are often exploited with sums adding up to grand amounts of money. Tax shelters, by themselves, encourage growth and enterprise. But if they're exploited, it's like a kid exploiting a money glitch in a video game. The only difference between that and a politician bailing on taxes is how legal it may or may not be.

Here's a little fact that people who like to attack busiensses fail to address -

BUSINESSES DON'T PAY TAXES - THEY PASS THEIR TAX OVERHEAD ON TO THEIR CUSTOMERS. When you raise taxes on a business, you're raising prices on their customers. ANY tax eventually hits you and I, the end consumer, right in the wallet.

...demanding higher taxes on businesses is the same thing as demanding you are personally taxed at a higher rate.

[KRAM1]

Now I see where you are coming from. With the one class in Econ you took being Macro, you missed out on all the supply side and micro-stuff. I guess you are a big Kaynes guy, right? Your point about a new tax code is RIGHT ON, however. How about a flat tax (Dick Armey) or a "national sales tax" (Steve Forbes) option? Either would basicly put the IRS out of business from a collection side, do away with careers made out of ways the "get around" the tax code, and would stop penalizing people who actually work for a living.

And, while we are at it;

1) Do away completely with the "Death Tax";

2) Do away with the Alternative Minimum Tax;

3) Eliminate the "earned income credit" provision;

4) Eliminate all taxes on savings (the $$$ has already been taxed when originally earned unless in an IRA or 401k, 403B, etc.);

5) Eliminate capital gains taxes; and

6) set the maximum individual tax rate at 15%.

That, my friends would definitely spur new spending from the consumer side.

As for businesses:

1) Encourage through favorable tax handling the employment of US citizens based in the US;

2) Reduce the double taxation that now takes place on foreign earnings;

3) Provide tax incentives for capital investments;

4) Reduce the corporate tax rate to a maximum of 20%;

5) Provide tax incentives to Corporations for R&D programs (new products, etc.);

6) Provide tax incentives for the development of nuclear power and other alternative sources of power, and

7) Etc., etc. I could go on and on about this, but you get the drift.

[forevereagle]

1) Do away completely with the "Death Tax";

That, my friends would definitely spur new spending from the consumer side.

Dead people don't spend money.

[KRAM1]

But, they pay taxes and that reduces the amount of money the heirs can spend. Point is, taxes reduce spending, savings, investments, etc. both on the consumer and the business side of the equation. It's elementary, my dear Watson......

[forevereagle]

But, they pay taxes and that reduces the amount of money the heirs can spend. Point is, taxes reduce spending, savings, investments, etc. both on the consumer and the business side of the equation. It's elementary, my dear Watson......

That was a little joke...

And, I would like to offer a counter point to the "Lower Taxes will Solve All Problems" argument.

Lowering taxes is a great way to grow the economy at some points. When consumer confidence is high, lowering taxes causes a direct increase in consumer spending. When consumer confidence is low, people tend to hoard. Also, when people are worried about possibly losing their job, they tend to hoard. And, on top of that, when confidence in banks is low, people tend to hoard their money in cash, instead of in banks.

Right now, I would say that consumer confidence is at a very low point. People are not spending money. Letting people keep a little more of it to keep in their mattress will not lead to increased consumer spending. During the Great Depression, do you not think that cutting taxes was tried? Do you know what was working before WWII? Public works through government spending. For all of you citing economic policy, there are 2 ways to easily increase the size of an economy. Cutting taxes is not one of them. Increasing the money supply and government spending. We should not be toying with the money supply, since the dollar is already losing value. So, government spending would be the better alternative here.

Using micro economics does not apply here. We have a multi-trillion dollar economy, and that is not small scale. Micro economics is typically reserved for a specific product or competitive situation, not for an etire economy.

[KRAM1]

1) Supply side economics does well work at the government level and

2) The government public works policies before WWII that you cite as a great example of how to get out of an economic downturn was in fact, a reason for the downturn. Tax cuts spur economic growth and will indeed lead to more employemnt, higher wages and more business and consumer spending. Government is the problem...not the answer. Government regulations, from perhaps well meaning folks, have shown time and time again to cramp business expansion and personal spending.

Forevereagle...spoken like a true Kayensian and big governement macro guy!

Now, all that being said...perhaps there is sroom for some "combination" of the two sides where government is not trying to "spend its way" to a depression once again, and where some spending can get to the right folks to "olil" the machinery until decent tax cuts can take effect. I would bet that if a few of us got together, we could actually come up with a decnt proposals that both republicans and democrats could support. And, without "calling anyone out", and witout "paying everyone under the sun" off for their political support.

BTW...GREAT AD by Wells fargo in today's Wall Street Journal talking about all the "lavish truips corporations are taking". How would you like to be employed by a resort hotel, private jet manufacturing company, high end small retail business, etc. these days with all the negative press coming from Obama's administration? Think you might feel a bit insecure about your job too? The law od unexpected consequences at work here at its finest. Does anyone else recall the "luxury tax" imposed by the Carter Administration back in the 70's????? Well, it cased large layoffs and business closings in many areas such as private boats, private planes, jewelry and caused a large reduction in vacation spending and on and on. Gee, let's tax the rich...no one will care, right? WRONG...lots of workers out on the street. Yep, raising taxes...always a great idea that is "doomed to fail" each and every time. That is just one of countless examples. But, folks who like "tax and spend" economics can never seem to even look at the "other side" even in the face of facts and example after example. It seems it is just too easy to think with the heart and not the brain in these issues. Yep, that "garden of eden" created by Karl marx worked real well, didn't it? Hmmmmmmmmm. Seems that big government idea hit a bit of a snag somwhere along the line.

[forevereagle]

Forevereagle...spoken like a true Kayensian and big governement macro guy!

And?

[DeepGreen]

Now I see where you are coming from. With the one class in Econ you took being Macro, you missed out on all the supply side and micro-stuff. I guess you are a big Kaynes guy, right? Your point about a new tax code is RIGHT ON, however. How about a flat tax (Dick Armey) or a "national sales tax" (Steve Forbes) option? Either would basicly put the IRS out of business from a collection side, do away with careers made out of ways the "get around" the tax code, and would stop penalizing people who actually work for a living.

And, while we are at it;

1) Do away completely with the "Death Tax";

2) Do away with the Alternative Minimum Tax;

3) Eliminate the "earned income credit" provision;

4) Eliminate all taxes on savings (the $$$ has already been taxed when originally earned unless in an IRA or 401k, 403B, etc.);

5) Eliminate capital gains taxes; and

6) set the maximum individual tax rate at 15%.

That, my friends would definitely spur new spending from the consumer side.

As for businesses:

1) Encourage through favorable tax handling the employment of US citizens based in the US;

2) Reduce the double taxation that now takes place on foreign earnings;

3) Provide tax incentives for capital investments;

4) Reduce the corporate tax rate to a maximum of 20%;

5) Provide tax incentives to Corporations for R&D programs (new products, etc.);

6) Provide tax incentives for the development of nuclear power and other alternative sources of power, and

7) Etc., etc. I could go on and on about this, but you get the drift.

Gosh KRAM1, we think scarily alike. Good post. Is scarily a word?

[Bryan316]

One would think that if one was going to invoke John Maynard Keynes' name as an insult, one would learn how to properly spell it.

[meangreendork]

...demanding higher taxes on businesses is the same thing as demanding you are personally taxed at a higher rate.

More taxes on businesses is (generally) a piss-poor idea. But going back and looking the code over is. Businesses tend to be taxed on extraneous items, while not being taxed for, or being given a giant loophole for others. For some businesses, this sort of thing can hurt them bigtime, especially for the smaller businesses where stuff like employee-based taxes hit harder.

I don't dig flat taxes. They have a tendency overtax those without a great deal of money and undertax those who do. The usual, "50% of $40,000 is far worse for a person than 50% of $1mil" statement. National sales taxes are horrible ideas, if for no other reason another tax would be lumped up and then unevenly spread out, plus the whole state's rights and powers thing, too.

KRAM - We did get good amounts of Micro splashed in there. It's part of the reason I don't have a problem with tax cuts as a whole. You know, "make it easier to make things and it makes it easier to buy them" that sort of thing. I don't really buy one model or another in entirety...mainly because very rarely does on polar action really work without its unforeseen repercussions whipping back around and hitting just as hard. Make it easier to make, and at the same time make it easier to buy - a bit of tax cutting for everyone while also kicking in some spending to help stimulate additional growth on the other end.

[Coffee and TV]

Government regulations, from perhaps well meaning folks, have shown time and time again to cramp business expansion and personal spending.

You're right, we should throw a f8ckin laissez-faire party and say to hell with regulations. It's working wonders for Iceland right now.

[yyz28]

You're right, we should throw a f8ckin laissez-faire party and say to hell with regulations. It's working wonders for Iceland right now.

I has worked GREAT for this country in the past.

...Government regulation should be in place ONLY to keep corruption in check, but the Government should not be over-regulating the economy.

Mark to market is STILL in place and it MUST be overturned. <-- Regulation causing problems for this economy

Mortgage Crisis was NOT caused by the banks alone - "everyone needs a home" policies pushed on banks by Congress <-- Regulation causing problems for this economy

Interest Rates artificially low <-- Regulation causing problems for this economy

The BEST way to fix this is to undo the laws that are stupid and artifically screw up financial statements, get interest rates back up to where a bank can actually MAKE some money by lending it out, and if we're going to spend money on ANYTHING, then the Government should step up, help the banks who THEY strong-armed into making loans to people who couldn't pay it back and help offset some of those bad loans.

...then give EVERYONE (WHO PAYS TAXES) a tax cut, cut the corporate tax rate in half (at least) in the short term, drop capital gains tax to 0% in the short term, and eliminate the death tax forever.

...then get out of the way and watch this economy go nuts...

Edited February 10, 2009 by yyz28