Maybe I Am Missing Something

hickoryhouse · January 13, 2009

In the Football area your hear calls for RV's head all the time, but over here you don't.... why?

Should we fire RV for his football record but ignore his BB one?

CMJ · January 13, 2009

In the Football area your hear calls for RV's head all the time, but over here you don't.... why?
Should we fire RV for his football record but ignore his BB one?

JJ brought us out of a nuclear winter as far as the basketball program was concerned. Trilli was a total disaster by Helwig.

JJ was RV's hire.

Quoner · January 13, 2009

JJ brought us out of a nuclear winter as far as the basketball program was concerned. Trilli was a total disaster by Helwig.
JJ was RV's hire.

RV got us a replay monitor!

chrisfisher · January 13, 2009

In the Football area your hear calls for RV's head all the time, but over here you don't.... why?
Should we fire RV for his football record but ignore his BB one?

The BB program is the best shape it has been in decades.

Green Lantern · January 13, 2009

In the Football area your hear calls for RV's head all the time, but over here you don't.... why?
Should we fire RV for his football record but ignore his BB one?

We did reach the NCAA tournament for the first time since the late 80's under JJ's watch. We could be doing quite a bit worse in men's basketball.

e-bone ver2.awesome · January 13, 2009

The real problem with the athletic department and basketball is the total lack of promotion, not the team's record. This has been discussed at length before, but since no one at the AD seems to care about basketball then it is just a waste of energy to get worked up about it.

UNT90 · January 13, 2009

We did reach the NCAA tournament for the first time since the late 80's under JJ's watch. We could be doing quite a bit worse in men's basketball.

Nothing personal, but I just hate this type of attitude when it comes to UNT sports.

We also could be doing much, much better in both football and Bball. Let's try to raise the bar, shall we?

Greater accomplishment should raise expectations further. Never, ever rest on past accomplishment (which we have few).

hickoryhouse · January 14, 2009

I know that JJ was RV's guy, that is I guess part of what I was getting at... I know that our basketball has come along way from where they were when I got here even.. That is partly due to RV.

I don't know if I am trying to defend the guy but maybe I am saying that I think he is getting a bum rap..

I s there something that I am missing that RV did to get the people to despise him as much as they do? Our facilities have gotten better, our Basketball programs, Men's and Women's have hired great coaches and have upside only limited byt eh support we as fans, alums and students give them, They passed the athletics fee.... I know fotball sucks, but Basketball and so much else is good?

Edited January 14, 2009 by hickoryhouse

CMJ · January 14, 2009

I don't dislike RV at all. He's made some good hires and some bad hires, but our AD has taken leaps forward since I was in school.

NT80 · January 14, 2009

I know that JJ was RV's guy, that is I guess part of what I was getting at... I know that our basketball has come along way from where they were when I got here even.. That is partly due to RV.
I don't know if I am trying to defend the guy but maybe I am saying that I think he is getting a bum rap..
I s there something that I am missing that RV did to get the people to despise him as much as they do? Our facilities have gotten better, our Basketball programs, Men's and Women's have hired great coaches and have upside only limited byt eh support we as fans, alums and students give them, They passed the athletics fee.... I know fotball sucks, but Basketball and so much else is good?

Overall, RV has done an excellent job of improving where UNT Athletics is as a whole. And we were very far down in a hole when he came. Most fan concerns about facilities and events from tailgating to concessions have been addressed over time, as well as correcting all the Title IX mess we were in. The biggest need of course now is a new football stadium and a winning football program again. Football drives the bus and it's failure is looked at by fans as wanting the AD to fix it ASAP. Not always easy to do on the shoestring budget we run on. RV is very approachable and will talk easily with anyone.

Many got on RV for a couple things: not starting a new stadium when timelines were first being guessed at, not firing Dickey soon enough, although some said his hands were tied by a buddy of DD on the BOR; and not communicating enough with fans on a large scale, although he has posted on GMG before, what AD does that? I think he has been great for UNT and would like to see what he could do for us if he only had more funds to work with. I do believe he's almost given it up a few times and looked at other jobs/locations. I know the football record must wear on him as Dodge is his hire, and the stadium is a huge project to pull off on such a tight budget in poor economic times. I think RV will get us there eventually, just maybe not as fast as if we had UT's money!

Edited January 14, 2009 by NT80

Green Mean · January 14, 2009

JJ has done a fine job here the last few years compared to what it was. I am not saying we let him sit another 5 years with subpar seasons but every other basketball program in Texas has gotten super competitive too like top 25 caliber not to mention the schools in Oklahoma, Arkansas etc have good basketball schools. I say wait a couple of years and see what happens. If he doesn't get the job done then it is time to look for other options but I strongly feel that the salaries of our coaches need to increase. I do not see a reason we can't lure a top notch young and up coming assistant. All it is going to take is having a higher salary which we need to have. That is not just for basketball but to all of our coaches across the board.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Green Mean

Censored by Laurie · January 14, 2009

JJ has done a fine job here the last few years compared to what it was. I am not saying we let him sit another 5 years with subpar seasons but every other basketball program in Texas has gotten super competitive too like top 25 caliber not to mention the schools in Oklahoma, Arkansas etc have good basketball schools. I say wait a couple of years and see what happens. If he doesn't get the job done then it is time to look for other options but I strongly feel that the salaries of our coaches need to increase. I do not see a reason we can't lure a top notch young and up coming assistant. All it is going to take is having a higher salary which we need to have. That is not just for basketball but to all of our coaches across the board.

He has two more years in my mind. Next season we have a roster of 2 seniors (Tramiel, Johnson), 7 juniors (Mangrum, White, Hogans, Thompson, Odufuwa, Shorter, Spencer), & 2 freshmen (Knox, Holman)...plus you can assume (hopefully) at least 1 more junior. With the top end talent this team has (Tramiel, White, Thompson) the only thing lacking are the complimentary pieces...a defensive minded lane-clogger (Spencer?) and a pass first, preferably big point guard (Brister?)...and a hustle/glue guy (Mangrum/Shorter?). After addressing these ares, this team is set up to turn the corner and will have all the componants of a championship calliber SBC team, and one capable of knocking off teams like Houston, Arkansas and Oklahoma State.

I expect to be playing in the SBC championship game next season...and with a resume that at least merits at-large bid consideration...2 years, tourney or bust. With everything that seems to be invested in the next two seasons, whether by design or just coincidence, I think JJ's job rides (or should ride) on the results, not performance, of the next two seasons. If there aren't significant wins, tourney bids and a significant step up in both area and national recognition I think it will be next to impossible for JJ to infuse 8-9 new bodies once the 09 junior class graduates that will keep us competitive on the level we would then expect...and thus, it would be time for him to go.

All the credit in the world to JJ for moving us from the basement to the ground level...but penthouse is achievable with this roster and if JJ doesnt deliver by the time Josh and TT leave then he's not the guy to lead us.

oldguystudent · January 14, 2009

and with a resume that at least merits at-large bid consideration...2 years, tourney or bust.

Dude. It's a one-bid conference that doesn't even garner NIT consideration. tourney or bust means having a run of luck in the conference tournament and getting past MTSU, WKU and ASU (others?).

As for the original question about RV, there are two things.

1) After seeing the commentary following last Saturday's 3OT win, I'm convinced that 17 consecutive years of national championships for all men's and women's teams at UNT combined with a 100% graduation rate at 100% 4.0 GPA, a national deal with ESPN to be the featured game of the week each and every week, free lap dances in the parking lot at half time, vibrating Corinthian leather seats at the new open air, climate controlled football stadium, and personal door-to-door limousine service to and from each game, while still a completely self sustaining and profitable program, requiring no donations from alumni or students, would still bring gripes from this message board, and it would fall on RV's head to fix it. This one's on the fan base.

2) There's like, what? 12 people on this message board? Maybe it's a chicken and egg issue, but it's tough to grow a program with 12 fans in your pocket. OTOH, it's tough to increase your fan base with 12 first downs every season. This one falls on the department.

CMJ · January 14, 2009

Dude. It's a one-bid conference that doesn't even garner NIT consideration. tourney or bust means having a run of luck in the conference tournament and getting past MTSU, WKU and ASU (others?).

That's not necessarily true, we got two schools in last year. And back 10+ years ago, the SBC routinely got more than one school in. I'm hoping we'll get back to that point as a league.

And we usually do have one in the NCAA's and one in the NIT.

Addressing CBL, I also think we should have a great shot to make the Big Dance next year and the following year. As to whether we should fire Coach Jones if we don't make it in....well....ask me if the time comes. At this point I can't say.

Hell, despite much consternation by yours truly, I haven't given up on this year.

Edited January 14, 2009 by CMJ

untjim1995 · January 14, 2009

He has two more years in my mind. Next season we have a roster of 2 seniors (Tramiel, Johnson), 7 juniors (Mangrum, White, Hogans, Thompson, Odufuwa, Shorter, Spencer), & 2 freshmen (Knox, Holman)...plus you can assume (hopefully) at least 1 more junior. With the top end talent this team has (Tramiel, White, Thompson) the only thing lacking are the complimentary pieces...a defensive minded lane-clogger (Spencer?) and a pass first, preferably big point guard (Brister?)...and a hustle/glue guy (Mangrum/Shorter?). After addressing these ares, this team is set up to turn the corner and will have all the componants of a championship calliber SBC team, and one capable of knocking off teams like Houston, Arkansas and Oklahoma State.
I expect to be playing in the SBC championship game next season...and with a resume that at least merits at-large bid consideration...2 years, tourney or bust. With everything that seems to be invested in the next two seasons, whether by design or just coincidence, I think JJ's job rides (or should ride) on the results, not performance, of the next two seasons. If there aren't significant wins, tourney bids and a significant step up in both area and national recognition I think it will be next to impossible for JJ to infuse 8-9 new bodies once the 09 junior class graduates that will keep us competitive on the level we would then expect...and thus, it would be time for him to go.
All the credit in the world to JJ for moving us from the basement to the ground level...but penthouse is achievable with this roster and if JJ doesnt deliver by the time Josh and TT leave then he's not the guy to lead us.

CBL,

Good points on where we should be in a year or two. One thing that I would caution everyone on is the fact that the talent doesn't always stay--issues pop up often--whether its grades, drugs, personal issues, etc. What looks good down the road, doesn't always manifest itself into being what we think we see. Secondly, I think JJ will be here for a long time--unless he does get us to the tourney again and attracts bigger programs. His salary fits our budget, his personality doesn't stir up too many emotions around here, and his legacy here will forever be that he brought the program up from the most embarrassing level that it has ever endured (Trilli years). In many ways, the next football coach after Dodge could look similar to JJ in that just by doing something positive--win 4 or 5 games, he will look like a genius compared to what we are seeing right now. But, as for JJ, even if we don't make the tournament (NCAA or NIT), I just can't see him being fired--unless they only win 7 or 8 games. And maybe that says more about UNT and its expectations than it does about JJ or the team.

Censored by Laurie · January 14, 2009

Dude. It's a one-bid conference that doesn't even garner NIT consideration. tourney or bust means having a run of luck in the conference tournament and getting past MTSU, WKU and ASU (others?).
As for the original question about RV, there are two things.
1) After seeing the commentary following last Saturday's 3OT win, I'm convinced that 17 consecutive years of national championships for all men's and women's teams at UNT combined with a 100% graduation rate at 100% 4.0 GPA, a national deal with ESPN to be the featured game of the week each and every week, free lap dances in the parking lot at half time, vibrating Corinthian leather seats at the new open air, climate controlled football stadium, and personal door-to-door limousine service to and from each game, while still a completely self sustaining and profitable program, requiring no donations from alumni or students, would still bring gripes from this message board, and it would fall on RV's head to fix it. This one's on the fan base.
2) There's like, what? 12 people on this message board? Maybe it's a chicken and egg issue, but it's tough to grow a program with 12 fans in your pocket. OTOH, it's tough to increase your fan base with 12 first downs every season. This one falls on the department.

Look...I agree that a win is a win...but we've had too many of those this season to just sit back and be content with the W and say we'll play and win more convincingly the next time we play an inferior team. ASU is good, and very well coached, but they're also in the process of rebuilding...and having them at home, in what had to feel like a must win situation I think it is very reasonible to be disappointed by the way UNT played...especially considering the body of work for the season. There is nothing wrong with having high expectations.

As CMJ said, this conference got two bids last season...WKU, the tourney champ was a 13 seed and had a great push to the sweet 16...while USA got an at large bid, 10 seed...and got screwed by being matched up against a drastically under-seeded Butler team (should've been at least a 5, not a 7). WKU, USA, ULL and UNO all have strong basketball traditions and the SBC is recognizing it made a huge mistake by trying to make this a football conference back in 2001. Its coming back around to being a basketball conference and in its current state is deeper than the West Coast Conference, the Colonial Conference and is on par or right on the doorstep of the Missouri Valley and the A-10...all routinely multiple bid conferences. And we're significantly improving, especially with coaches like Brady and Mike Jarvis building programs.

And a guy name "oldguystudent" shouldn't be dude-ing anyone.

Hell, despite much consternation by yours truly, I haven't given up on this year.

I haven't either. We have 5 guys who have scored over 20 points in a game this season...and are capable of that feat any night. If a 2-3 of these guys can piece those nights together at the right time we can beat anybody. Hopefully that time is the second weekend in March.

Green Lantern · January 14, 2009

Nothing personal, but I just hate this type of attitude when it comes to UNT sports.
We also could be doing much, much better in both football and Bball. Let's try to raise the bar, shall we?
Greater accomplishment should raise expectations further. Never, ever rest on past accomplishment (which we have few).

Agree. Nothing personal taken. Let's not bring football into the basketball discussion (we all concede that there is major room for improvement there)

My statement may have been taken as accepting status quo, but I really do want to see all programs improve. Men's basketball is no exception, however, I am pretty happy with where the program has been recently/currently sits, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I've followed NT basketball for 11 years now, and the team in recent years is by far the best that it's been since I've been here. This year has certainly provided some dissapointments (UTA & UNO games, & lack of a true point guard), but I think that we are poised to be really good for the next 2-3 years with some key aquisitions.

As CBL pointed out, give them a few more years to see if we develop into a marquee SBC program. If we don't, then maybe it's time for serious discussion about JJ and the future of the program. To date, JJ and company have helped us acheive a feat only acheived one time previously in the program's history. I feel like we are still currently making progress, even if this doesn't happen to be our year.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Green Lantern

greenminer · January 14, 2009

RV got us a replay monitor!

I like to think of it as an animated poster.

GrandGreen · January 14, 2009

JJ's record the last 4 seasons and thus far this year is 36-35 in conference. Not exactly great but obviously a great improvement over Trilli. JJ seems to have the team poised to take that next step and actually be in the conference regular season championship race, but it has not yet happened. His recruiting has greatly improved over his first few years and he seems to have the talent to get over that hump and join the elite of the conference, but in general his teams continue to be mediore except that great tournament run of two years ago.

I would love to see a team that is better than a win most of the home games and lose most of the away games in the league. That maybe too much to ask with a team that garners so little support from the fan base and administration. Despite having great basketball facilities, I guess it is hard to sell a program that struggles to fill 20% of their stadium despite having an exciting team. JJ is currently a good not great coach but he is actually a lot better than the program deserves based on it's support level.

CMJ · January 14, 2009

WKU, the tourney champ was a 13 seed and had a great push to the sweet 16...

They were actually a 12.

untjim1995 · January 14, 2009

JJ is currently a good not great coach but he is actually a lot better than the program deserves based on it's support level.

e-bone ver2.awesome · January 14, 2009

Dude. It's a one-bid conference that doesn't even garner NIT consideration. tourney or bust means having a run of luck in the conference tournament and getting past MTSU, WKU and ASU (others?).
As for the original question about RV, there are two things.
1) After seeing the commentary following last Saturday's 3OT win, I'm convinced that 17 consecutive years of national championships for all men's and women's teams at UNT combined with a 100% graduation rate at 100% 4.0 GPA, a national deal with ESPN to be the featured game of the week each and every week, free lap dances in the parking lot at half time, vibrating Corinthian leather seats at the new open air, climate controlled football stadium, and personal door-to-door limousine service to and from each game, while still a completely self sustaining and profitable program, requiring no donations from alumni or students, would still bring gripes from this message board, and it would fall on RV's head to fix it. This one's on the fan base.
2) There's like, what? 12 people on this message board? Maybe it's a chicken and egg issue, but it's tough to grow a program with 12 fans in your pocket. OTOH, it's tough to increase your fan base with 12 first downs every season. This one falls on the department.

As already stated, we had 2 teams in the NCAA last season with one making the Sweet 16.

1. Are you serious? We won a triple OT game after going on a 5 game losing streak.

2. Agreed. The AD is not doing anything to promote the team and make this happen.

Green P1 · January 14, 2009

And a guy name "oldguystudent" shouldn't be dude-ing anyone.

Dude.....

:mellow:

Edited January 14, 2009 by Green P1

oldguystudent · January 15, 2009

And a guy name "oldguystudent" shouldn't be dude-ing anyone.

I grew up on the beach in California. It's in the DNA. Just be happy I don't break out with the gnarlys.

UNT90 · January 15, 2009

Agree. Nothing personal taken. Let's not bring football into the basketball discussion (we all concede that there is major room for improvement there)
My statement may have been taken as accepting status quo, but I really do want to see all programs improve. Men's basketball is no exception, however, I am pretty happy with where the program has been recently/currently sits, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. I've followed NT basketball for 11 years now, and the team in recent years is by far the best that it's been since I've been here. This year has certainly provided some dissapointments (UTA & UNO games, & lack of a true point guard), but I think that we are poised to be really good for the next 2-3 years with some key aquisitions.
As CBL pointed out, give them a few more years to see if we develop into a marquee SBC program. If we don't, then maybe it's time for serious discussion about JJ and the future of the program. To date, JJ and company have helped us acheive a feat only acheived one time previously in the program's history. I feel like we are still currently making progress, even if this doesn't happen to be our year.

I agree and definitely don't think any changes should be made reference JJ. He seems to have built a very solid foundation for the program. I do think we should expect to win the Sun Belt West the next two years.