Those Overmatched Underclassmen

Cr1028 · December 26, 2008

To quote Vito:

UNT has a couple of more freshmen starters,

Isn't that the point?

but is right in line with most of the teams in the country when it comes to the number of freshmen and sophomores on the roster.

Why would this matter? Well, your backups and scout teamers bring your totals to about average? So what.

It's not a big shock that the Sun Belt's two bowl teams are the most experienced.

Bingo.

UNT had five players on Rivals.com's All-Sun Belt freshman team

Best in the belt. Those players will be sophomores next year and our top recruit in recent memory will have had a year of weight training to bulk up and have 4 years of eligibility remaining, that is unless you guys run off his father.

It takes time to get your ducks in a row. Dickey constantly complained about how tough it is to coach here and you guys act like there are grade A candidates beating down RV's door. Wake up gentleman, and ladies. Harbaugh would have never taken this job, it was a "for show" interview to spark interest from higher paying programs with better facilities like Stanford. You talk about division 2 and 1AA coaches who would come here and be great, why would they leave? This is a place where coaches come to commit career suicide. If a weak Sun Belt hadn't formed in 2001, Dickey would've been gone back then. We are fortunate that Todd Dodge took a chance on us. We took a chance on him as well and in time I believe we will see great dividends. This time next year after he has been named Belt Coach of the Year and Riley has been named freshman of the year I will revist this post.

UNT90 · December 26, 2008

To quote Vito:
Isn't that the point?
Why would this matter? Well, your backups and scout teamers bring your totals to about average? So what.
Bingo.
Best in the belt. Those players will be sophomores next year and our top recruit in recent memory will have had a year of weight training to bulk up and have 4 years of eligibility remaining, that is unless you guys run off his father.
It takes time to get your ducks in a row. Dickey constantly complained about how tough it is to coach here and you guys act like there are grade A candidates beating down RV's door. Wake up gentleman, and ladies. Harbaugh would have never taken this job, it was a "for show" interview to spark interest from higher paying programs with better facilities like Stanford. You talk about division 2 and 1AA coaches who would come here and be great, why would they leave? This is a place where coaches come to commit career suicide. If a weak Sun Belt hadn't formed in 2001, Dickey would've been gone back then. We are fortunate that Todd Dodge took a chance on us. We took a chance on him as well and in time I believe we will see great dividends. This time next year after he has been named Belt Coach of the Year and Riley has been named freshman of the year I will revist this post.

You would think that we just read 2 different articles. I hope you are right. I hope Dodge and UNT win the conference next year, and Dodge procedes to build a great program. I have seen nothing to indicate this will happen. I am a realist when evaluating present and past events, but an optimist when it comes to the future of UNT athletics. Vision is needed to lead UNT to where they should be.

Things change. With a new stadium on the way, new athletic village, and multiple other new athletic venues, UNT is finally growing up. Maybe some have been around UNT athletics so long they just expect the same results. I think the bar should be raised across the board. For coaches, for the AD (who has had a big role in leading to the bar being raised), for the students and fans, and for Almni and donors. If you believe what Dickey said still applies, you are living in the past.

LoveMG · December 26, 2008

This time next year after he has been named Belt Coach of the Year and Riley has been named freshman of the year I will revist this post.

yes please do revisit your superman post next year.

CaribbeanGreen · December 26, 2008

To quote Vito:
Isn't that the point?
Why would this matter? Well, your backups and scout teamers bring your totals to about average? So what.
Bingo.
Best in the belt. Those players will be sophomores next year and our top recruit in recent memory will have had a year of weight training to bulk up and have 4 years of eligibility remaining, that is unless you guys run off his father.
It takes time to get your ducks in a row. Dickey constantly complained about how tough it is to coach here and you guys act like there are grade A candidates beating down RV's door. Wake up gentleman, and ladies. Harbaugh would have never taken this job, it was a "for show" interview to spark interest from higher paying programs with better facilities like Stanford. You talk about division 2 and 1AA coaches who would come here and be great, why would they leave? This is a place where coaches come to commit career suicide. If a weak Sun Belt hadn't formed in 2001, Dickey would've been gone back then. We are fortunate that Todd Dodge took a chance on us. We took a chance on him as well and in time I believe we will see great dividends. This time next year after he has been named Belt Coach of the Year and Riley has been named freshman of the year I will revist this post.

I hope you're right, Cr, but the spirit of this thread is simply the piling on of facts that refute the claim that we're a freakishly young team, and therefore it's okay that we're out of almost every game by the second quarter. Teams all over the country are playing and yes, starting (see GMG1999's post and all the other above links) freshmen and sophomores, some within our own conference, some in major BCS conferences... somehow, those teams are getting totally different results.

Do I hope Dodge turns this thing around? Of course. Despite nothing but evidence to the contrary, I sure hope you're right on about next season.... but as for the part of the post belittling NT -- to say we're lucky Dodge took a chance on us is grade A hogwash, and I feel I don't really need to say why -And again, the weak Sun Belt in 2001 is also a myth, as Tasty debunked earlier this year... those early 2000's teams were ass-kicking forces to be reckoned with and they gave us the best 4-year run in our school's history, and a better run than most schools will ever have... and they'd still lay the lumber today.

Again, not what this thread was about. It's been proven ad nauseum in multiple references, links, articles, etc. that there are many teams that play and start more freshmen and sophomores than we do, from the SEC to our own conference... don't expect the rats still on the ship to eat any crow, though.. they never do, time after time.

Cr1028 · December 26, 2008

I hope you're right, Cr, but the spirit of this thread is simply the piling on of facts that refute the claim that we're a freakishly young team, and therefore it's okay that we're out of almost every game by the second quarter. Teams all over the country are playing and yes, starting (see GMG1999's post and all the other above links) freshmen and sophomores, some within our own conference, some in major BCS conferences... somehow, those teams are getting totally different results.

I think Deloach needed a year to get everything squared away and his personnel in. I think special teams will not be a cluster-f as usual this coming year either. Dodge is using a tight end at times. We are getting better. From the beginning of the year to the end, I could see a difference.

Do I hope Dodge turns this thing around? Of course. Despite nothing but evidence to the contrary, I sure hope you're right on about next season.... but as for the part of the post belittling NT -- to say we're lucky Dodge took a chance on us is grade A hogwash, and I feel I don't really need to say why -And again, the weak Sun Belt in 2001 is also a myth, as Tasty debunked earlier this year... those early 2000's teams were ass-kicking forces to be reckoned with and they gave us the best 4-year run in our school's history, and a better run than most schools will ever have... and they'd still lay the lumber today.

Who would we have gotten instead of Dodge? Not June Jones, not Jim Harbaugh, maybe an offensive coordinator from a .500 team in CUSA? If the Sun Belt wasn't weak, then why couldn't we compete in the Big West?

Again, not what this thread was about. It's been proven ad nauseum in multiple references, links, articles, etc. that there are many teams that play and start more freshmen and sophomores than we do, from the SEC to our own conference... don't expect the rats still on the ship to eat any crow, though.. they never do, time after time.

To compare SEC freshmen to our freshmen is like comparing Josh White to Kevin Durant and Greg Oden.

Edited December 26, 2008 by Cr1028

The Fake Lonnie Finch · December 26, 2008

So, we're back where we started:

The Dodgebangers cry youth; the people who want better point to programs across the country in a variety of conferences who do it with youth instead of crying about youth.

It still comes down to one thing - coaching. On and off the field, the others have it; we don't.

oldguystudent · December 26, 2008

Maybe the issue at hand is that our players aren't young enough. They've all actually graduated from high school and therefore can't be kept in line with a note home to the parents and a trip to the principal's office. Nah. It's all just Fouts Field.

eulesseagle · December 26, 2008

ah.....coaching......

how 'bout $1,000,000 man june jones down the road......hummmm......what was his record??

how 'bout smu's bb coach who won a national championship???

there are others but don't want to bore anyone.

you can be an excellent coach and have sub par players but you can't make players heavier overnight, make them run faster overnight.......

nt is a mid-major in the sbc and that is what coach td recruits against....not the bcs. for anyone to try to compare nt with any bcs school is insane. nt does not have the greatest football tradition for winning teams over the last four decades....heck, nt almost dropped football at one time.....and if some of you remember nt went 1-aa.

the football program will have to progress as what coach jones has done with the basketball program. let me remind some of you ...... some of you were calling for the dimisal of coach jones......now look what he is doing.

i will have to agree with "cr" on the progress of the team last year. the asu game appeared that the team was finally jelling as a unit. nt's "o" line (let me see.....made up of fresh/soph "starters") were doing a great job and for anyone to say that they have not seen "any" progress last year probably only read the stats in the paper.....and for the td jump off the ship rats.....you probably quaffed too many 12 oz'ers to notice.

personally, i am thrilled that td has a five year contract to rebuild.

Quoner · December 26, 2008

We've been getting along so well, but a few things I wanted to bring up:

-Coach Do never won a title, but some debate how much credit he deserves for the 05 UNC season. However, his records the few seasons before he left were pretty bad. When is the next time a UNC coach goes 8-20?

-Did TCU and Boise graduate from mid-major status? You might want to let the announcers lobbying for them to get in the Big 12 and Pac 10 know that so they could focus on other storylines almost every time they take the field nationally. I really just wish there was a team somewhere in America that we could possibly compare ourselves too? Should I start checking Canada and Mexico? My searches have very secure borders, but we could make an exception to get this thing done.

Last year there were really three games that I walked away not shaking my head about: LSU (although seeing what they are now...wait, positive damn it!), WKU, and ASU. If those games had all happened in a row, we'd all feel much better, but they were sadly sprinkled among some pretty bad results.

Personally, I am thrilled my two Jewish friends sent my Merry Christmas text messages yesterday. And hey, Merry Christmas to you as well EE. I'm so giving you a toy boat next time we meet...I love you!

ah.....coaching......
how 'bout $1,000,000 man june jones down the road......hummmm......what was his record??
how 'bout smu's bb coach who won a national championship???
there are others but don't want to bore anyone.
you can be an excellent coach and have sub par players but you can't make players heavier overnight, make them run faster overnight.......
nt is a mid-major in the sbc and that is what coach td recruits against....not the bcs. for anyone to try to compare nt with any bcs school is insane. nt does not have the greatest football tradition for winning teams over the last four decades....heck, nt almost dropped football at one time.....and if some of you remember nt went 1-aa.
the football program will have to progress as what coach jones has done with the basketball program. let me remind some of you ...... some of you were calling for the dimisal of coach jones......now look what he is doing.
i will have to agree with "cr" on the progress of the team last year. the asu game appeared that the team was finally jelling as a unit. nt's "o" line (let me see.....made up of fresh/soph "starters") were doing a great job and for anyone to say that they have not seen "any" progress last year probably only read the stats in the paper.....and for the td jump off the ship rats.....you probably quaffed too many 12 oz'ers to notice.
personally, i am thrilled that td has a five year contract to rebuild.

Cr1028 · December 26, 2008

personally, i am thrilled that td has a five year contract to rebuild.

Agreed.

LoveMG · December 26, 2008

personally, i am thrilled that td has a five year contract to rebuild.

it is a five year contract but it does not guarantee he will be coach for five years especially if more rebuilding is not shown. why should it take five years?

emmitt01 · December 26, 2008

ah.....coaching......
how 'bout $1,000,000 man june jones down the road......hummmm......what was his record??
how 'bout smu's bb coach who won a national championship???
there are others but don't want to bore anyone.
you can be an excellent coach and have sub par players but you can't make players heavier overnight, make them run faster overnight.......
nt is a mid-major in the sbc and that is what coach td recruits against....not the bcs. for anyone to try to compare nt with any bcs school is insane. nt does not have the greatest football tradition for winning teams over the last four decades....heck, nt almost dropped football at one time.....and if some of you remember nt went 1-aa.
the football program will have to progress as what coach jones has done with the basketball program. let me remind some of you ...... some of you were calling for the dimisal of coach jones......now look what he is doing.
i will have to agree with "cr" on the progress of the team last year. the asu game appeared that the team was finally jelling as a unit. nt's "o" line (let me see.....made up of fresh/soph "starters") were doing a great job and for anyone to say that they have not seen "any" progress last year probably only read the stats in the paper.....and for the td jump off the ship rats.....you probably quaffed too many 12 oz'ers to notice.
personally, i am thrilled that td has a five year contract to rebuild.

You point to the ASU game as evidence to combat the "coaching" argument? :lol: :lol: :lol: Bone headed squib kick...followed just one series later by a give up run up the middle to limp into the locker room (when we had a timeout and the chance to gain momentum). Is this ringing any bells there EE?

CaribbeanGreen · December 27, 2008

Who would we have gotten instead of Dodge? Not June Jones, not Jim Harbaugh, maybe an offensive coordinator from a .500 team in CUSA? If the Sun Belt wasn't weak, then why couldn't we compete in the Big West?
To compare SEC freshmen to our freshmen is like comparing Josh White to Kevin Durant and Greg Oden.

Again, the whole "we weren't that good in 2000-04" thing, "the Belt was terrible, that team wouldn't do squat now" argument... I know this isn't what this thread is about, but minimizing those accomplishments burns me like no other. It's not like we have much positive football history to lean on around here, so belittling by far the most successful four year stretch we've had is an insult to some bad-ass players and teams...

Yeah, the Belt wasn't very good. Guess what? It STILL isn't. Do you know how many TOTAL wins the Belt had this season over teams with winning records?? ALL season, the ENTIRE Belt?? TWO. That's right... TWO. If that had been the case from 2000-2004, people that make the anti-championship team arguments would be screaming it was proof of what a pathetic conference it was and how lucky we were to win it. Somehow, this year's Belt performed far worse than the Belt Dickey's teams thoroughly dominated for four years, yet these unfounded claims of how easy DD had it and how HARD Dodge has it now continue, despite evidence to the contrary like this and like that contained in Tasty's post on TY Sports.

As for the two wins the belt notched this season, one of them was an in-conference win, ULM over Troy. By the way, this reinforces the fact that Belt champions continue to lose at least one conference game per year -- since NT dominated the Belt for four years, we've seen a series of co-champions and teams with conference losses going to New Orleans. These "weak" DD teams of the early 00's lost one conference game, @ULM, in the SBC opener... after that? Undefeated, four straight years, in a conference that has not gotten statistically more successful since - yet no other team can seem to go unblemished for one season, much less 3+. Yet somehow, some folks around here, who somehow consider themselves NT fans, feel the need to denigrate the achievements of the championship teams and tell us how much harder things are now for our 3-21 coach who has EVERY advantage (advantages that far outweigh any percieved challenges created by conference affiliation) -- facilities, future stadium, tailgating/game day atmosphere, AD support -- our previous staff didn't. Oh, and even when the previous staff was floundering in their first two seasons in the Big West, they were beating Texas Tech and Boise State.... not provisional 1-As.

- The other of the SBC's two plus-.500 wins was MTSU over Maryland... a damn fine win, which leads me back to the point of this thread. MTSU, who cleaned our clocks, and who had the conference's best win this season -- STARTED MORE FRESHMEN THAN WE DID. As I said "From the SEC to our very own conference" teams are playing as many or more freshmen than we are. Why you chose to focus only on the SEC part is beyond me, as the point is simply that it's happening EVERYWHERE... we're not special. Stockstill at MTSU came in to a program saddled with issues and immediately turned the thing around, quickly taking the Raiders to a bowl game. This year, playing with more freshmen than any team in the Belt (and not as "highly rated" as Dodge's), he led MT to the best win in the Belt all season, and whipped Dodge's ass up and down the field. Why no excuses in Murfreesboro?

Then, there's the curious case of FIU... Living in South Florida the past several years and being engaged to an FIU alum, I can tell you without hesitation this is a job that is more difficult than NT on almost each and every level. An infant program, a student body from all over the world that's more interested in that "other" kind of football or happen to be Canes fans, NO history, little alumni support, a claptrap stadium, ONE win in two seasons (over guess who), public interest that makes NT look like Ohio State, and NO discernible talent or solid upperclassmen. Yet in his two seasons, Cristobal (a UM assistant that somehow little ol' FIU easily convinced to come, as is the case in ANY FBS job) has taken FIU to nearly-.500, is undefeated against Todd Dodge, and has done it all with the help of his best player, TY Hilton.... a true freshman. Why no excuses in West Miami?

I hope that somehow Dodge turns it around... that somehow these freshmen figure out how to play between this year and next, that past isn't prologue, and that a magic switch just flips.... you know, it's happened before here... Unbeaten, Others-recieving-votes MTSU rolled in here 5 or 6-0 (Hicks 4 Heisman!), to take on winless about-to-can-the-coach NT... and like magic, in a way that can't be explained, NT won that thing... and then didn't lose again in conference for four years. So, since some folks argue that things that team did weren't so great, and since that staff and that team had no promise of a future stadium, an INEPT AD, no tailgating, no support from the administration or student body (we voted "NO" back then), no shiny new offices, no big new weight rooms, and wasn't getting the "big time" recruits Dodge is getting.... then we can safely assume that Dodge, with infinitely greater resources far outweighing any increased challenges, should be able to easily come within HALF that success... right?

Edited December 27, 2008 by CaribbeanGreen

emmitt01 · December 27, 2008

Again, the whole "we weren't that good in 2000-04" thing, "the Belt was terrible, that team wouldn't do squat now" argument... I know this isn't what this thread is about, but minimizing those accomplishments burns me like no other. It's not like we have much positive football history to lean on around here, so belittling by far the most successful four year stretch we've had is an insult to some bad-ass players and teams...
Yeah, the Belt wasn't very good. Guess what? It STILL isn't. Do you know how many TOTAL wins the Belt had this season over teams with winning records?? ALL season, the ENTIRE Belt?? TWO. That's right... TWO. If that had been the case from 2000-2004, people that make the anti-championship team arguments would be screaming it was proof of what a pathetic conference it was and how lucky we were to win it. Somehow, this year's Belt performed far worse than the Belt Dickey's teams thoroughly dominated for four years, yet these unfounded claims of how easy DD had it and how HARD Dodge has it now continue, despite evidence to the contrary like this and like that contained in Tasty's post on TY Sports.
As for the two wins the belt notched this season, one of them was an in-conference win, ULM over Troy. By the way, this reinforces the fact that Belt champions continue to lose at least one conference game per year -- since NT dominated the Belt for four years, we've seen a series of co-champions and teams with conference losses going to New Orleans. These "weak" DD teams of the early 00's lost one conference game, @ULM, in the SBC opener... after that? Undefeated, four straight years, in a conference that has not gotten statistically more successful since - yet no other team can seem to go unblemished for one season, much less 3+. Yet somehow, some folks around here, who somehow consider themselves NT fans, feel the need to denigrate the achievements of the championship teams and tell us how much harder things are now for our 3-21 coach who has EVERY advantage (advantages that far outweigh any percieved challenges created by conference affiliation) -- facilities, future stadium, tailgating/game day atmosphere, AD support -- our previous staff didn't. Oh, and even when the previous staff was floundering in their first two seasons in the Big West, they were beating Texas Tech and Boise State.... not provisional 1-As.
- The other of the SBC's two plus-.500 wins was MTSU over Maryland... a damn fine win, which leads me back to the point of this thread. MTSU, who cleaned our clocks, and who had the conference's best win this season -- STARTED MORE FRESHMEN THAN WE DID. As I said "From the SEC to our very own conference" teams are playing as many or more freshmen than we are. Why you chose to focus only on the SEC part is beyond me, as the point is simply that it's happening EVERYWHERE... we're not special. Stockstill at MTSU came in to a program saddled with issues and immediately turned the thing around, quickly taking the Raiders to a bowl game. This year, playing with more freshmen than any team in the Belt (and not as "highly rated" as Dodge's), he led MT to the best win in the Belt all season, and whipped Dodge's ass up and down the field. Why no excuses in Murfreesboro?
Then, there's the curious case of FIU... Living in South Florida the past several years and being engaged to an FIU alum, I can tell you without hesitation this is a job that is more difficult than NT on almost each and every level. An infant program, a student body from all over the world that's more interested in that "other" kind of football or happen to be Canes fans, NO history, little alumni support, a claptrap stadium, ONE win in two seasons (over guess who), public interest that makes NT look like Ohio State, and NO discernible talent or solid upperclassmen. Yet in his two seasons, Cristobal (a UM assistant that somehow little ol' FIU easily convinced to come, as is the case in ANY FBS job) has taken FIU to nearly-.500, is undefeated against Todd Dodge, and has done it all with the help of his best player, TY Hilton.... a true freshman. Why no excuses in West Miami?
I hope that somehow Dodge turns it around... that somehow these freshmen figure out how to play between this year and next, that past isn't prologue, and that a magic switch just flips.... you know, it's happened before here... Unbeaten, Others-recieving-votes MTSU rolled in here 5 or 6-0 (Hicks 4 Heisman!), to take on winless about-to-can-the-coach NT... and like magic, in a way that can't be explained, NT won that thing... and then didn't lose again in conference for four years. So, since some folks argue that things that team did weren't so great, and since that staff and that team had no promise of a future stadium, an INEPT AD, no tailgating, no support from the administration or student body (we voted "NO" back then), no shiny new offices, no big new weight rooms, and wasn't getting the "big time" recruits Dodge is getting.... then we can safely assume that Dodge, with infinitely greater resources far outweighing any increased challenges, should be able to easily come within HALF that success... right?

Why waste so much time and energy. The prophets of Southlake jesus (notice I didn't capitalize so chill out) will never believe that though our team has been killed and buried that it won't somehow magically rise up on the 7th year.

UNT90 · December 27, 2008

Why waste so much time and energy. The prophets of Southlake jesus (notice I didn't capitalize so chill out) will never believe that though our team has been killed and buried that it won't somehow magically rise up on the 7th year.

I didn't know Coach Dodge was Mexican

eulesseagle · December 27, 2008

emmit--as usual you didnt read my post.....i said the year...not two or three specific plays.....get off the "red eye"

quoner--touche' i stand corrected.....maybe it was coach Do who was part of the nc championship team, as a player and not a coach. thanks for the merry christmas and returned salutations for the new year. cant wait for the boat. :lol: