Statistics Don't Always Lie

[GrandGreen]

NCAA stats

How bad was NT? In some cases, statistics don't lie.

Special Team Rankings:

Net Punting 109

Punt Returns 110

Kickoff Returns 113

Punt Return Yardage Defense 107

Kickoff Return Yardage Defense 119

Offensive Rankings: Not bad moving the ball, but can't score. Also supports my contention that the offensive line is not as bad as many seem to think.

Rushing Offense 82

Passing Offense 41

Total Offense 59

Scoring Offense 102

Sacks Allowed 68

Tackles for Loses Allowed 64

Defensive Rankings: Historically bad

Rushing Defense 106

Pass Efficiency Defense 118

Total Defense 119

Scoring Defense 119

Sacks t112

Tackles for Loss t110

Turnover Margin: Key component of record 117

[Green Mean]

All the more confusion as to why Dodge without a doubt deserves year 3 with no questions asked.

[UNTLifer]

All the more confusion as to why Dodge without a doubt deserves year 3 with no questions asked.

For all the reasons stated numerous times before, the program was in the crapper when he arrived.

[Green Dozer]

For all the reasons stated numerous times before, the program was in the crapper when he arrived.

AMEN!!!!

[gangrene]

For all the reasons stated numerous times before, the program was in the crapper when he arrived.

Where is the program now?

[UNT90]

For all the reasons stated numerous times before, the program was in the crapper when he arrived.

And now it appears to be through the lines and headed toward the sewage treatment plant. Maybe not, maybe the moon and stars will allign and everything wll go perfectly next year and we will win 4 games. Doubt it, things never go as smooth as we hope. I support RV's decision, whatever it may be. If Dodge stays with similiar results next year, I think you see both Dodge and RV gone. Just like DD wasn't RV's coach, RV was not GB's choice for AD.

As far as Deloach as Asst. head coach, you don't reward underachievement. (I know, diff topic post. Lack the energy)

I hope our players magically become more athletic, add obscene muscle mass, and transform from the worst team in D1 football to superstars. It seems that many on here see this magically happening when players become Juniors.

[houstonmeangreen]

For all the reasons stated numerous times before, the program was in the crapper when he arrived.

Well now it is really in the crapper.

RV fired TD...saves his job

RV keep TD and TD failure again....RV loses his job.....that is the way I see it.

[adman]

Well now it is really in the crapper.

RV fired TD...saves his job

RV keep TD and TD failure again....RV loses his job.....that is the way I see it.

So do an AD & Head Coach live and die simply by win/loss record? Or do we think RV will grade TD via metrics. Win/Loss + X + Y etc. If so how is it weighted? Since TD arrived attendance is at or near record highs. Season ticket sales are up. Donations up? Students signed off on a new stadium/dedicated athletics fee. (Couldn't pass it when DD was here.) Now did all of that happen in spite of Dodge? I don't think you can say it did. Does the product on the field stink? Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. But taken as a whole it seems much good has happened with Dodge here as well and it can't all be coincidental. Can it? Does it give TD one more season? I think it probably should.

[UNT90]

So do an AD & Head Coach live and die simply by win/loss record? Or do we think RV will grade TD via metrics. Win/Loss + X + Y etc. If so how is it weighted? Since TD arrived attendance is at or near record highs. Season ticket sales are up. Donations up? Students signed off on a new stadium/dedicated athletics fee. (Couldn't pass it when DD was here.) Now did all of that happen in spite of Dodge? I don't think you can say it did. Does the product on the field stink? Yeah, I think we can all agree on that. But taken as a whole it seems much good has happened with Dodge here as well and it can't all be coincidental. Can it? Does it give TD one more season? I think it probably should.

I agree that Dodge has done a great job in every aspect of the football program, except winning, which trumps everything else (thats life in the real world). Looks like he will get one more season. You will see less season tickets sold for 2009 due to the performance this year (although some apologist will blame it on the economy). Dodge and RV were irrelevant in the student fee. Don't take the credit away from where it belongs, the students (Flyer in particular). The things you talk about happened because of excitement around the program and the Dodge hire. They will start going away without a winning team.

No doubt RV has done an admiral job with facility development and other aspects of the program. But football is THE sport in this area and in this state, not to mention the prime revenue producer for the Athletic Dept. I just wonder if his job is linked to Dodge's performance in year three if Dodge stays.

[UNT_playmaker]

For all the reasons stated numerous times before, the program was in the crapper when he arrived.

We are ranked dead last at #119 out of #119. We are even ranked below some Division 2 schools and we really rank out in the mid #150's in college football.

This has officially been the worst season on record at NT and Coach Dodge has only one Div 1 win after two full seasons. I can never remember a season when we got so much negative press. Even the local paper's beat writer, makes the coach and his program the butt of his jokes, calling them Sotuhlake North and etc.

What is your definition of better? Also, do you really believe our program is headed in the right direction considering that we were a heartbeat away from a 0-12 season in his second year with his recruits and having better resources than the previous monster of a coach?

[VideoEagle]

I agree that Dodge has done a great job in every aspect of the football program, except winning, which trumps everything else (thats life in the real world).

No, it does not. Did losing cause DD to be fired? No, certainly not by itself. The way he mistreated the fans, caused overall donations (with the exception of one guy) to decline and cause a noticeable drop in attendance because of his "us" against "them" stand caused a group of people to come forward to pay to get him bought out. If he had been working to get more donations, to increase attendance, etc., he would have just finished out his contract and then not had it renewed.

All football programs go through up and down periods of winning and losing. But your program can't survive in the FBS unless you have a coach who can do more than just win games. Why do you think Mack Brown was never seriously threatened by the "Fire Mac" crowd? He was doing everything else a head coach needs to do well. If you do that long enough, eventually the wins will come.

Edited December 3, 2008 by VideoEagle

[UNTFan23]

We are ranked dead last at #119 out of #119. We are even ranked below some Division 2 schools and we really rank out in the mid #150's in college football.

This has officially been the worst season on record at NT and Coach Dodge has only one Div 1 win after two full seasons. I can never remember a season when we got so much negative press. Even the local paper's beat writer, makes the coach and his program the butt of his jokes, calling them Sotuhlake North and etc.

What is your definition of better? Also, do you really believe our program is headed in the right direction considering that we were a heartbeat away from a 0-12 season in his second year with his recruits and having better resources than the previous monster of a coach?

Show me a Div 2 school that is ranked higher then us.

Also, we have three Div 1 wins (1 FBS and 2 against a FCS to FBS transition school).

[UNT_playmaker]

Show me a Div 2 school that is ranked higher then us.

Also, we have three Div 1 wins (1 FBS and 2 against a FCS to FBS transition school).

Western Kentucky has been a provisional D-1 school. Next Year they will officially be in the Sun Belt Conference as a Football member and full stadning as a D-1 school. They have been D-2

http://www.kiva.net/~jsagarin/sports/cfsend.htm

We are ranked #182...... lowest all season.... we are the lowest ranked D-1 program and passed up by the likes of Portland State and Coastal Carolina.....

Anybody who is giving Dodge more time at this point, either doesn't care about the direction of our football program or is a Southlake alum....

[VideoEagle]

Western Kentucky has been a provisional D-1 school. Next Year they will officially be in the Sun Belt Conference as a Football member and full stadning as a D-1 school. They have been D-2

http://www.kiva.net/~jsagarin/sports/cfsend.htm

We are ranked #182...... lowest all season.... we are the lowest ranked D-1 program and passed up by the likes of Portland State and Coastal Carolina.....

Anybody who is giving Dodge more time at this point, either doesn't care about the direction of our football program or is a Southlake alum....

Where to begin. First, according to the NCAA, a win against Western in football counts exactly the same as a win against any other FBS school. It counted the same as a win against any other FBS school last year.

Second, Jay Sagarin has written the rankings between FBS and FCS schools in his system are questionable at best because there are not enough games between the two divisions to be statistically significant so the suggestion was have been "passed up" by Portland State and Costal Carolina in ridiculous. Let them get to any bowl game and then we can start talking about the possibility of catching us.

Third, Western is currently a member of Division 1 in NCAA athletics. I believe they have been since Division 1 was created in the 70s as their basketball team was making the NCAA tournament back then including a Final Four appearance in 1971. And a college can't be in Div. 1 for one sport and in another Division for others.

Fourth, do you really mean that RV, Dr. B, Lee Jackson, the Board of Regents and the vast majority of supports of NT athletics don't care about the direction of the football program or are Southlake alumni? As near as can be determined, only a very vocal minority of posters on this BBS think that way.

The football team was terrible this year. This must improve next year or Dodge will lose his job. When he was hired, it was expected that he would have two to three seasons with a losing record although no one though it would be this bad.

Because Dodge is at NT a number of positives have happened including increased attendance, increased donations and at least at first increased news coverage. The students actually agreed to tax themselves for a new stadium. When we were winning more games under the previous coach, none of those things were happening and thus as soon it as was certain Dickey was going to have a second losing season in a row he was fired. While a small group here don't seem to grasp this, there actually is more to college athletics than just winning although winning is the most important part.

Maybe it would be best to going back to predicting hurricanes in Denton.

Edited December 3, 2008 by VideoEagle

[UNT90]

No, it does not. Did losing cause DD to be fired? No, certainly not by itself. The way he mistreated the fans, caused overall donations (with the exception of one guy) to decline and cause a noticeable drop in attendance because of his "us" against "them" stand caused a group of people to come forward to pay to get him bought out. If he had been working to get more donations, to increase attendance, etc., he would have just finished out his contract and then not had it renewed.

All football programs go through up and down periods of winning and losing. But your program can't survive in the FBS unless you have a coach who can do more than just win games. Why do you think Mack Brown was never seriously threatened by the "Fire Mac" crowd? He was doing everything else a head coach needs to do well. If you do that long enough, eventually the wins will come.

There is no doubt that if Dickey acted the same way, and still won 9-10 games every year and went to bowls, he would not have been fired. Also, donations, attendance, and interest would not have slipped. "Fire Mac" was happening when Texas was going 8-4, not 1-10 and the worst team in D1 football. No way to compare the two. Barry Switzer could do anything he wanted at Oklahoma. Why? Because he won.

I wish Dodge could get it done on the field, because in every other area he is great.

[VideoEagle]

Barry Switzer could do anything he wanted at Oklahoma. Why? Because he won.

Actually, Barry is a great example of there being more to coaching than just winning. Barry was winning, but team went wild and he didn't rein them in. That is what got him fired despite winning.

If (and it is a big if) Dodge wins some games next year, he will be in great shape. Otherwise he will be gone.

Even if he wins there will be a few who will hate him forever because of these first two years.

[UNT90]

Actually, Barry is a great example of there being more to coaching than just winning. Barry was winning, but team went wild and he didn't rein them in. That is what got him fired despite winning.

If (and it is a big if) Dodge wins some games next year, he will be in great shape. Otherwise he will be gone.

Even if he wins there will be a few who will hate him forever because of these first two years.

Actually, it was a combination of athletes getting arrested, a cavalier attitude, and decreasing on the field performance (from the standard that they were used to at the time).

I agree about your other statements about Dodge. THe main concern is that I have not seen anything to indicate that he can win some games next year, and I hate to see UNT waste another year.

[jimmyjames_99]

Anybody who is giving Dodge more time at this point, either doesn't care about the direction of our football program or is a Southlake alum....

If you really believe this, then you must also believe everytime you masturbate you are killing millions of children...

[UNTLifer]

Anybody who is giving Dodge more time at this point, either doesn't care about the direction of our football program or is a Southlake alum....

Proof

[Quoner]

If you really believe this, then you must also believe everytime you masturbate you are killing millions of children...

WTF?

Why put off until tomorrow what a coat hangar can do today?

[Green Dozer]

I agree that Dodge has done a great job in every aspect of the football program, except winning, which trumps everything else (thats life in the real world). Looks like he will get one more season. You will see less season tickets sold for 2009 due to the performance this year (although some apologist will blame it on the economy). Dodge and RV were irrelevant in the student fee. Don't take the credit away from where it belongs, the students (Flyer in particular). The things you talk about happened because of excitement around the program and the Dodge hire. They will start going away without a winning team.

No doubt RV has done an admiral job with facility development and other aspects of the program. But football is THE sport in this area and in this state, not to mention the prime revenue producer for the Athletic Dept. I just wonder if his job is linked to Dodge's performance in year three if Dodge stays.

90,

Dodge was not irrelevant to the student fee. He deserves credit, and RV was also giving a stump speech in the weeks leading up to the vote. Ask Flyer. You can't tell me that some of the students that voted yes did so because they knew of him from Southlake. Also, the letters I read from students in the Daily in support of the stadium most always mentioned Dodge and what they thought the future of our football program was with him. He is also the only coach in recent memory to have a weekly lunch with the students at the Union, do the dog pound thing etc. What did Dickey do? (I know you did not even go there, just making a comparison). Dodge did contribute, maybe not going around in the back of truck with a bullhorn hollering vote for the stadium, but he was certainly not irrelevant.

In another post, you say he has more resources. Like what? Donations are up, yes, but so is the cost of everything, so that pretty much washes away any increase. It costs more for jocks, buses, planes, food, and everything else. Don't forget, donations go to support the other teams in the athletic program as well. And when you lose money in a business, that takes care of the revenue. Just my opinion. I don't think you will see a noticeable decrease in season tix, give this fan base a little more credit.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Green Dozer

[UNT90]

90,

Dodge was not irrelevant to the student fee. He deserves credit, and RV was also giving a stump speech in the weeks leading up to the vote. Ask Flyer. You can't tell me that some of the students that voted yes did so because they knew of him from Southlake. Also, the letters I read from students in the Daily in support of the stadium most always mentioned Dodge and what they thought the future of our football program was with him. He is also the only coach in recent memory to have a weekly lunch with the students at the Union, do the dog pound thing etc. What did Dickey do? (I know you did not even go there, just making a comparison). Dodge did contribute, maybe not going around in the back of truck with a bullhorn hollering vote for the stadium, but he was certainly not irrelevant.

In another post, you say he has more resources. Like what? Donations are up, yes, but so is the cost of everything, so that pretty much washes away any increase. It costs more for jocks, buses, planes, food, and everything else. Don't forget, donations go to support the other teams in the athletic program as well. And when you lose money in a business, that takes care of the revenue. Just my opinion. I don't think you will see a noticeable decrease in season tix, give this fan base a little more credit.

Dodge has done a great job off the field, as I have said many times. My comments about the athletic fee vote were specific to anything that Dodge and RV did directly related to that vote. It probably would have hurt the vote if they had actively campaigned for the athletic fee. Flyer and other SGA leaders led the campaign so the students wouldn't feel like the vote was forced down their throat.

People on here are diehards. The bounce in season ticket sales we got when Dodge was hired will go away, beginning next season, without success on the field. Don't recall the post about more resources and am fairly sure it wasn't my post.

Never really cared for Dickey, but won't rip the guy.

[Green Dozer]

We are ranked dead last at #119 out of #119. We are even ranked below some Division 2 schools and we really rank out in the mid #150's in college football.

This has officially been the worst season on record at NT and Coach Dodge has only one Div 1 win after two full seasons. I can never remember a season when we got so much negative press. Even the local paper's beat writer, makes the coach and his program the butt of his jokes, calling them Sotuhlake North and etc.

What is your definition of better? Also, do you really believe our program is headed in the right direction considering that we were a heartbeat away from a 0-12 season in his second year with his recruits and having better resources than the previous monster of a coach?

Well, he has not been the butt of jokes from media that matter. You think the Record Chronicle matters? All the other media (Trahan, guys on the Ticket, Doocy) will mention how hard a time UNT has had it, but will follow up to continue to give Dodge a chance. The former monster of a coach left this thing in shambles, pure and simple. He did not recruit in the end like he did at the start of the championship runs. We also do not have the off the field the problems that we had under Dickey. And before you throw the drug deal at me, well you can thank the past regime for it. And yes, I know Rucker was one of "Dodge's" recruits. For another post, I don't think that kid needs to be put to the curb, but that's another post. And where do you get this "having better resources" ? Did you endow the athletic department with some lottery winnings? Is their some facilities we don't know about? You know how many changes of clothes this team travels in? What they have on their back when they leave town. You know what great meal they had on a return trip from Western Kentucky? A cold cut sandwich and a bag of chips. Oh yea, those resources are just flowing. You don't think the rising costs we have seen in the economy since Dickey left didn't eat those better resources? And remember the football team is not the only one the donations and fees support, and their costs to travel/and other things have risen as well. And one more thing, one recruiting class is not going to step on a Div. 1 field and turn it around overnight. 17 coaches have coached here, 5 had winning records, so that means 70% of the men who have walked our sideline have had losing records. Only 2 have moved to another Div. 1 program as a head coach when they left here. Where is the winning tradition that you and a few think we can return to so quick? I think those and a few more reasons make it unreasonable to believe that anybody can come here and build this program in 2 years, and probably not 3. I don't want us to win the Sun Belt, I want us to dominate and have people wonder why we are not in Conf. USA. If it takes another year or 2 like this to get to that point, I am for it. Nothing that is worthy and lasts comes easy!

[UNT_playmaker]

I am right there with in wanting our program to be where it deserves to be. I mean 35,000 students, huge campus, and a hot bed for recruiting in the DFW market, we should be in a much better conference than the sun belt.

But in the last two years we can't even argue to be in a better conference like we did in years past.

As far as resources, we have new stadium to look forward to building to tell new recruits, athletic fee passage which enables for funds, the new Athletic Center and weight room matches that of bigger schools, and new practice fields that are not rec center fields.

A few weeks ago after losing to MT you wanted change at the HC position, now that Dodge has miraculously kept his job, you think Dodge can turn things after posting a 1-11 record, I just don't see it... especially in the upcoming recruiting season.

[Green Dozer]

I am right there with in wanting our program to be where it deserves to be. I mean 35,000 students, huge campus, and a hot bed for recruiting in the DFW market, we should be in a much better conference than the sun belt.

But in the last two years we can't even argue to be in a better conference like we did in years past.

As far as resources, we have new stadium to look forward to building to tell new recruits, athletic fee passage which enables for funds, the new Athletic Center and weight room matches that of bigger schools, and new practice fields that are not rec center fields.

A few weeks ago after losing to MT you wanted change at the HC position, now that Dodge has miraculously kept his job, you think Dodge can turn things after posting a 1-11 record, I just don't see it... especially in the upcoming recruiting season.

Your right, for that day I did say to change HC. But if you look at my posts up to that point, and since, I have been a Dodge banger as some of the other Div. 1 coaches and athletic directors like yourself on this board call us. Promise of a stadium is not going to bring the recruits here in droves. Dickey was told he would get a stadium, even promised it to some recruits in '02 I think. Dodge does not have any access to athletic fee yet, does not go into effect for a few more years. We could not argue for a better conference even with Dickey here, and those 4 championships runs. I think Dickey thought after the 3 rd conference championship he was headed to a better job. Shows you how we are viewed in the world of college football outside of Denton, Texas. The weight room matches other mid majors, but I smell comparing to OU/TX, please can we get realistic of where we really are. It does not match those. I would argue even the rec center fields are better than a lot of the kids practiced on at their high schools, not everybody is from Plano.

And I do not think it is a miracle that he kept his job. 17 other men have tried, most failed (70% of them), trying the quick fix with this generous alumnae we have, and the unlimited amount of resources they have at their disposal. Oh, the next guy might have had 4 wins last year, and 5 or 6 this season, then he would throw his hands up to. I have not sensed any quit in Todd Dodge. Dickey laid down. Why can't we just give somebody a chance, and 2 or 3 years is not a realistic for a strong foundation to be built.

Yea, I flipped for about 24 hours, so.