Unt Taking A Risk In Letting Miller Walk

[Brett Vito]

Mean Green Blog

[ADLER]

It would certainly be nice to have Joe Miller back, but doesn't playing in 4 games exclude a player from receiving a medical redshirt waiver? Isn't the participation limit 3 games in a 12 game season?

A fourth game played would put the player at 33% season participation and the NCAA medical hardship waiver allows only players who have participated in less than 30 percent of a team's games to request a medical red shirt.

Edited November 19, 2008 by ADLER

[island eagle]

It would certainly be nice to have Joe Miller back, but doesn't playing in 4 games exclude a player from receiving a medical redshirt waiver? Isn't the participation limit 3 games in a 12 game season?

A fourth game played would put the player at 33% season participation and the NCAA medical hardship waiver allows only players who have participated in less than 30 percent of a team's games to request a medical red shirt.

Justin Wells, 6-4 285 4.9 was second-team All-Jayhawk Conference at DT, despite playing on a 1-9 team. Sounds like he might be a good pick-up for us.

[PHSCoach]

NCAA new rule 04/2008

In team sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three

contests or dates of competition (whichever is applicable to that sport) or 30 percent (whichever number is

greater) of the institution’s scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in his or her sport. Only

scheduled or completed competition (including exempted events but excluding scrimmages and exhibition

contests identified as such in the legislation) against outside participants during the playing season that concludes

with the NCAA championship, or, if so designated, during the official NCAA championship playing

(Revised: 1/10/92, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 3/10/04, 5/11/05, 8/4/05,

4/26/07 applicable to student-athletes who initially enrolled full time in a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/03,

9/18/07, 4/24/08)

the 30% is to be rounded up to the next number

I have no idea if Miller would get his red shirt but he could have requested it

[H-towngreen]

Didn't he play in 4 games?

[ADLER]

Didn't he play in 4 games?

Yes, Joe Miller played in 4 games and the Sun Belt cannot grant a medical hardship waiver for the season. This point is moot.

Riley Dodge played in 3 games and the Sun Belt can grant a medical hardship waiver for the season.

Neither player has been given a regular redshirt year so the university didn't need to appeal to the NCAA for an extension for a sixth year.

[PHSCoach]

Yes, Joe Miller played in 4 games and the Sun Belt cannot grant a medical hardship waiver for the season. This point is moot.

per what reg? The Sun Belt goes by the NCAA rules I didn't know they had their own set

[ADLER]

per what reg? The Sun Belt goes by the NCAA rules I didn't know they had their own set

Thanks for the reply, because like yourself, a lot of people are confused by the process.

Medical hardship waivers are granted by conferences according to NCAA regulations. The NCAA only handles this for independents.

Any extension to the 5 years to play 4 seasons (sixth year) can only be approved by by appealing to the NCAA. The NCAA is very strict on this rule and only approves around 25% of extension applications.

These are two separate processes.

[PHSCoach]

the same NCAA rule would apply to Dodge that applies to Miller. No one is requesting a sixth year.

[ADLER]

the same NCAA rule would apply to Dodge that applies to Miller. No one is requesting a sixth year.

Yes, and both of those medical hardship waivers would be handled by the Sun Belt Conference.

Considering that each has medical documentation from doctors or training staff, Riley Dodge will almost certainly receive a medical hardship waiver from the Sun Belt because he has only participated in 3 games (25% of season) and Joe Miller would not be eligible because he participated in 4 games (33% of season). The NCAA set the participation limit at less than 30% and the Sun Belt uses that rule to grant or not grant the waiver.

[PHSCoach]

Yes, and both of those medical hardship waivers would be handled by the Sun Belt Conference.

Considering that each has medical documentation from doctors or training staff, Riley Dodge will almost certainly receive a medical hardship waiver from the Sun Belt because he has only participated in 3 games (25% of season) and Joe Miller would not be eligible because he participated in 4 games (33% of season). The NCAA set the participation limit at less than 30% and the Sun Belt uses that rule to grant or not grant the waiver.

rounded up to the next hole number

[ADLER]

rounded up to the next hole number

Please let me know where you have located anything that implies "rounded up to the next whole number" meaning 40%. I have not seen that nor have I heard of it being applied.

It's the NCAA's 20% Rule which as of September 16, 2007 is defined as rounded up to include everything less than 30%. Please let me know if you've found 40% listed anywhere.

[PHSCoach]

14.2.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference

or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as

an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions: (Revised:

8/8/02, 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)

(a) The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any

two-year or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior

year in high school; (Revised: 1/10/92 effective 8/1/92, 11/01/01, 8/8/02)

( The injury or illness occurs prior to the first competition of the second half of the playing season that

concludes with the NCAA championship in that sport (see Bylaw 14.2.4.3.4) and results in incapacity to

compete for the remainder of that playing season; (Revised: 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01,

4/3/02, 4/24/08)

© In team sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three

contests or dates of competition (whichever is applicable to that sport) or 30 percent (whichever number is

greater) of the institution’s scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in his or her sport. Only

scheduled or completed competition (including exempted events but excluding scrimmages and exhibition

contests identified as such in the legislation) against outside participants during the playing season that concludes

with the NCAA championship, or, if so designated, during the official NCAA championship playing

14

Eligibility

139

season in that sport (e.g., spring baseball, fall soccer), shall be countable under this limitation in calculating

both the number of contests or dates of competition in which the student-athlete has participated and the

number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition during that season in the sport. Dates of

competition that are exempted (e.g., alumni contests, foreign team in U.S.) from the maximum permissible

number of contests or dates of competition shall count toward the number of contests or dates in which the

student-athlete has participated and the number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition

in the season, except for scrimmages and exhibition contests that are specifically identified as such in

the sport’s Bylaw 17 playing and practice season regulations. Scrimmages and exhibition contests that are

not exempted from the maximum permissible number of contests or dates of competition may be excluded

from the calculation only if they are identified as such in the sport’s Bylaw 17 playing and practice season

regulations; and (Revised: 1/10/92, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 3/10/04, 5/11/05, 8/4/05,

4/26/07 applicable to student-athletes who initially enrolled full time in a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/03,

9/18/07, 4/24/08)

14.2.4.3.6.2 Fraction in Percent Computation. Any computation of the percent limitation

that results in a fractional portion of a contest or date of competition shall be rounded to the next

whole number (e.g., 30 percent of a 29-game basketball schedule— 8.7 games— shall be considered

nine games). (Revised: 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/07)

Edited November 19, 2008 by PHSCoach

[ADLER]

14.2.4 Hardship Waiver. A student-athlete may be granted an additional year of competition by the conference

or the Committee on Student-Athlete Reinstatement for reasons of “hardship.” Hardship is defined as

an incapacity resulting from an injury or illness that has occurred under all of the following conditions: (Revised:

8/8/02, 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)

(a) The incapacitating injury or illness occurs in one of the four seasons of intercollegiate competition at any

two-year or four-year collegiate institutions or occurs after the first day of classes in the student-athlete’s senior

year in high school; (Revised: 1/10/92 effective 8/1/92, 11/01/01, 8/8/02)

( The injury or illness occurs prior to the first competition of the second half of the playing season that

concludes with the NCAA championship in that sport (see Bylaw 14.2.4.3.4) and results in incapacity to

compete for the remainder of that playing season; (Revised: 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01,

4/3/02, 4/24/08)

© In team sports, the injury or illness occurs when the student-athlete has not participated in more than three

contests or dates of competition (whichever is applicable to that sport) or 30 percent (whichever number is

greater) of the institution’s scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition in his or her sport. Only

scheduled or completed competition (including exempted events but excluding scrimmages and exhibition

contests identified as such in the legislation) against outside participants during the playing season that concludes

with the NCAA championship, or, if so designated, during the official NCAA championship playing

14

Eligibility

139

season in that sport (e.g., spring baseball, fall soccer), shall be countable under this limitation in calculating

both the number of contests or dates of competition in which the student-athlete has participated and the

number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition during that season in the sport. Dates of

competition that are exempted (e.g., alumni contests, foreign team in U.S.) from the maximum permissible

number of contests or dates of competition shall count toward the number of contests or dates in which the

student-athlete has participated and the number of scheduled or completed contests or dates of competition

in the season, except for scrimmages and exhibition contests that are specifically identified as such in

the sport’s Bylaw 17 playing and practice season regulations. Scrimmages and exhibition contests that are

not exempted from the maximum permissible number of contests or dates of competition may be excluded

from the calculation only if they are identified as such in the sport’s Bylaw 17 playing and practice season

regulations; and (Revised: 1/10/92, 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/01 effective 8/1/01, 3/10/04, 5/11/05, 8/4/05,

4/26/07 applicable to student-athletes who initially enrolled full time in a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/03,

9/18/07, 4/24/08)

14.2.4.3.6.2 Fraction in Percent Computation. Any computation of the percent limitation

that results in a fractional portion of a contest or date of competition shall be rounded to the next

whole number (e.g., 30 percent of a 29-game basketball schedule— 8.7 games— shall be considered

nine games). (Revised: 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/26/07)

Is "up to 40%" hidden in there somewhere? If it is, I didn't see it.

[Green P1]

I might be wrong here... in order to apply Joe would have to sit out the remaining two games right? If he doesn't get the Med shirt he just sat out the last two games of competitive football he'll ever play, including Senior Day. Granted the payoff if successful is huge, but the disappointment if rejected is pretty substantial as well.

[PHSCoach]

Is "up to 40%" hidden in there somewhere? If it is, I didn't see it.

please read

14.2.4.3.6.2

[ADLER]

I might be wrong here... in order to apply Joe would have to sit out the remaining two games right? If he doesn't get the Med shirt he just sat out the last two games of competitive football he'll ever play, including Senior Day. Granted the payoff if successful is huge, but the disappointment if rejected is pretty substantial as well.

Correct, any play during the second half of the season would automatically eliminate Joe for any medical hardship waiver consideration.

If PHSCoach is right, which I am not quite convinced of yet but I hope is true, Joe could sit out the remaining 2 games and could then UNT could apply to the Sun Belt for a medical hardship waiver which would give him a year of eligibility during the 2009 season.

[calvin]

Not sure I like the idea of getting all these Juco guys in here. I wouldnt mind getting a couple defensive lineman but that is it. I would rather us keep building with HS kids. Ask Ron Prince how loading up with Juco's worked out for him.

[PHSCoach]

If PHSCoach is right, which I am not quite convinced of yet but I hope is true, Joe could sit out the remaining 2 games and could then UNT could apply to the Sun Belt for a medical hardship waiver which would give him a year of eligibility during the 2009 season.

Hell I don't know if that is how the SBC will rule. But as you said it is moot point if they are 1 going to play him in the next two games or 2 not apply for the medical

[ADLER]

please read

14.2.4.3.6.2

So, by your interpretation of the formula, a CUSA or Big 12 player (or at any 12 school conference which has a conference championship game) can play up to 5 games (38.46% participation) and still receive a medical redshirt?

[Stan R]

So, by your interpretation of the formula, a CUSA or Big 12 player (or at any 12 school conference which has a conference championship game) can play up to 5 games (38.46% participation) and still receive a medical redshirt?

*PHWEEEEEWT!!* (lame attempt at a loud whistle sound) Flagrant foul on ADLER - excessive rule interpretation, 15 yards and loss of down.

[jimmyjames_99]

PHSCoach is right, if Joe only played in 4 games then he is still eligable to request a medical hardship.

The rule says that he could not have participated in more than 3 games or 30% of contests, which ever is greater.

As 3 games is only 25% of our schedule, it would fall to a 30% limitation (the greater number). 30% is 3.6 games, so per 14.2.4.3.6.2, that rounds up to 4 games.

I have to admit though, it didn't make sense to me either until I did the math and read the complete reg...

Edited November 19, 2008 by jimmyjames_99

[Mean Green 93-98]

PHSCoach is right, if Joe only played in 4 games then he is still eligable to request a medical hardship.

The rule says that he could not have participated in more than 3 games or 30% of contests, which ever is greater.

As 3 games is only 25% of our schedule, it would fall to a 30% limitation (the greater number). 30% is 3.6 games, so per 14.2.4.3.6.2, that rounds up to 4 games.

I have to admit though, it didn't make sense to me either until I did the math and read the complete reg...

Then why wasn't Muzzy able to come back in '07?

[TheTastyGreek]

Then why wasn't Muzzy able to come back in '07?

Because Dickey is pure evil and Mandy filed the application while wearing a brown dress. Also, our alums suck, the NT Daily wrote a bunch of negative articles about it, and our University President can't pee standing up. Also, because we're too negative on our message board.

But seriously... I have no idea.

[jimmyjames_99]

Then why wasn't Muzzy able to come back in '07?

Not sure the issue on that one... Would have been nice though, he was fun to watch.