Coaching Change, Improvement, Recruiting

The Fake Lonnie Finch · November 9, 2008

Duke hired David Cutcliffe following the 2007 season. Duke went 1-11 in 2007. In 2006, 0-12. In 2005, 1-11, in 2004, 2-9. Four year, four win and 43 losses. So, I wonder if the "cupboard was bare" when Cutcliffe arrived?

So, here is Duke in 2008 - four wins, five losses...26 commitments and there are still three games left in the season! Yes, without "his own players" he somehow matches the win total of the previous four years and has kids clamoring to get into his program.

Someone try to tell me coaching doesn't matter when this is happening at Duke. Just how is David Cutcliffe improving on the field and in the realm of recruiting with less than one full season under his belt? Of his 26 commitment, two are four-star, 10 are three-star, so he's not just getting the second best and table scraps.

How can he do it? Could it be that knows how to do it? I think so.

Green Dozer · November 9, 2008

Duke hired David Cutcliffe following the 2007 season. Duke went 1-11 in 2007. In 2006, 0-12. In 2005, 1-11, in 2004, 2-9. Four year, four win and 43 losses. So, I wonder if the "cupboard was bare" when Cutcliffe arrived?
So, here is Duke in 2008 - four wins, five losses...26 commitments and there are still three games left in the season! Yes, without "his own players" he somehow matches the win total of the previous four years and has kids clamoring to get into his program.
Someone try to tell me coaching doesn't matter when this is happening at Duke. Just how is David Cutcliffe improving on the field and in the realm of recruiting with less than one full season under his belt? Of his 26 commitment, two are four-star, 10 are three-star, so he's not just getting the second best and table scraps.
How can he do it? Could it be that knows how to do it? I think so.

Lonnie,

You have some solid points in all of your posts. However, most all of these schools that you use as an example do not run the spread. Maybe they run a hybrid, where they mix it up. But not one like Dodge is trying to implement here. We have one receiver, it seems, that can stretch the field and that is Fitzgerald. Cutliffe runs a pro style offense, which is much easier to implement because it is basic as compared to the spread. Not negatively challenging you here, just asking, have you found a program that turned around so quick while changing the offensive system from one extreme to the other like is being attempted here at UNT?

Edited November 9, 2008 by Green Dozer

UNTLifer · November 9, 2008

Cutcliffe? Didn't he fail at Ol Miss?

NTPoonKing · November 9, 2008

Lonnie-

You are only making it harder on yourself. Each week you have made similar posts expressing your opinion of Td's coaching abilities(or lack there of). I happen to agree with you 100%. However-I have been able to distance myself from frustration by accepting the fact that the program is so far gone right now-I only want to wake up when its been/being fixed. Unfortunately-I have zero fatih in RV to correct this problem and make the gutsy call to terminate Dodge at the end of this season-because its not going to happen. Of course-the lack of money will be the reason...blah blah blah.

Those select few still looking the other way need to look a little harder and start asking some questions. The players have no respect for the head coach-and play like it. And as I've mentioned before-the parents of some recent former players are disgusted at what they see on the field. This is truly a sad time to be a fan. This program is almost an afterthought to most people at this point.

Oh what I would do if we could lure a position coach at OU or Texas or even TCU to take this job. Wishful thinking...... :angry:

Green Dozer · November 9, 2008

Lonnie-
You are only making it harder on yourself. Each week you have made similar posts expressing your opinion of Td's coaching abilities(or lack there of). I happen to agree with you 100%. However-I have been able to distance myself from frustration by accepting the fact that the program is so far gone right now-I only want to wake up when its been/being fixed. Unfortunately-I have zero fatih in RV to correct this problem and make the gutsy call to terminate Dodge at the end of this season-because its not going to happen. Of course-the lack of money will be the reason...blah blah blah.
Those select few still looking the other way need to look a little harder and start asking some questions. The players have no respect for the head coach-and play like it. And as I've mentioned before-the parents of some recent former players are disgusted at what they see on the field. This is truly a sad time to be a fan. This program is almost an afterthought to most people at this point.
Oh what I would do if we could lure a position coach at OU or Texas or even TCU to take this job. Wishful thinking......

As for the position coach, they make as much their as our head coach.

It is the money and years of an apathetic potential donor base and it finally has caught up with UNT. As I have said, we can wish, make comparisons, etc. Take away the land grants, oil royalties that we cry foul over at other schools, and you still have an alumni base that decided that they wanted a solid competitive athletic program. And, their alumni of today continue that. We, UNT alumni, thought 40 years or so ago that we could build this thing with pocket change while others were investing dollars. Sadly, the results of doing it that way has caught up with us. It just hit me that Dickey did ok until area high schools built stadiums better than ours and a lot of them also built indoor practice facilities. Hard to go to a place that has worse facilities than your high school. Don't agree with you that it is all coaching. Will agree that it is an afterthought to most people, sadly that includes most of our own alumni. As for the parents, if there kid was on scholarship and they have their degree, they should not be disgusted, they should be thankful. And if their kid broke team rules, and was dismissed from the team, then I hope they are working with him to correct his problem so he can get on with his life. We can get another coach, have our flash in the pan success, then be dormant for another 20 years. I wish people would step up, and give so we can have a competitive program that would be fun to watch year in and year out. It will not happen until the donor base takes responsibility and gives. Then we will see change.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Green Dozer

NTPoonKing · November 9, 2008

You can blah, blah, blah all you want to, but it is the money. It finally has caught up with UNT. As I have said, we can wish, make comparisons, etc. Take away the land grants, oil royalties that we cry foul over at other schools, and you still have an alumni base that decided that they wanted a solid competitive athletic program. And, their alumni of today continue that. We, UNT alumni, thought 40 years or so ago that we could build this thing with pocket change while others were investing dollars. Sadly, the results of doing it that way has caught up with us. It just hit me that Dickey did ok until schools built stadiums better than ours and a lot of them have indoor practice facilities. Hard to go to a place that has worse facilities than your high school. Don't agree with you that it is all coaching. Will agree that it is an afterthought to most people, sadly that includes most of our own alumni. As for the parents, if there kid was on scholarship and they have their degree, they should not be disgusted, they should be thankful.

I will concede the money issue to you-but friend-if you think Todd Dodge is the answer-you wouldn't like hearing some of the comments I have heard from folks who would know. There is enough talent here to win 3 games. If you don't beleive that-go ask the players how they feel about that.

Take my word for it-this program is better off starting from scratch.

PHSCoach · November 9, 2008

This staff is spending abaout 70% more money than UNT has in its history. And the results show what?????????

Green Dozer · November 9, 2008

This staff is spending abaout 70% more money than UNT has in its history. And the results show what?????????

Coach, in all due respect, when you were as compared to everybody else spending "0", and still are, then 70% of nothing is nothing. We are, and always have been so for behind, that the only way to go is up. Most of the high schools now have better stadiums, facilities, and player support than they did when we were winning the conference. You can't argue that these new stadiums all over are not first class. Yes, I know we may have one on the way, but it is not here today. We expect to get our share of those recruits? The donating here is in no way in line with what it takes to build a competitive program, and the reality of that has finally caught up with this program. We may be spending more money, but it is no way near enough.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Green Dozer

PHSCoach · November 9, 2008

We will spend more than 5 teams in the Subelt, 3 teams in the Mid America and they have or would kick the shit out of UNT

Green Dozer · November 9, 2008

We will spend more than 5 teams in the Subelt, 3 teams in the Mid America and they have or would kick the shit out of UNT

On what? Nothing shows for it. That money goes to travel to Florida, TN, KY, and other exotic places. Miami, Ohio, Marshall, Toledo,Central Mich Western Mich, etc are in a bus ride of each other. Their stadiums are nicer to! Our band does not even travel. You can compete all you want on paper. It still takes money, it cannot be built on the cheap and last. For us to build a program in the State of Texas, it takes money. I do not care what any other team in the Sun Belt does. It is the toilet of college football, why would we want to aspire to what they do. Celina could kick the shit out of us by the way.

VideoEagle · November 9, 2008

I was at a party the other day and was talking to several A&M Century Club Gold and Diamond level members. All four told me they expected a losing season this year and next and a barely .500 season two years from now since they have brought in a new coach. They expect it to take them four years to be competitive but once Sherman has his system established, they expect to win a national title. They also said he might be able to do win sooner, but it would be foolish to expect that to happen.

We simply don't have the resources of an A&M. It will take time for our new coach to establish his system. People tied to the old system will be hurt and that is unfortunate. But, bringing in a new coach will simply start the three to four years over. Unless someone is just lucky, it takes a while to build a consistently winning football team, especially one with the quality character we want to represent NT.

GoMeanGreen1999 · November 9, 2008

Duke hired David Cutcliffe following the 2007 season. Duke went 1-11 in 2007. In 2006, 0-12. In 2005, 1-11, in 2004, 2-9. Four year, four win and 43 losses. So, I wonder if the "cupboard was bare" when Cutcliffe arrived?
So, here is Duke in 2008 - four wins, five losses...26 commitments and there are still three games left in the season! Yes, without "his own players" he somehow matches the win total of the previous four years and has kids clamoring to get into his program.
Someone try to tell me coaching doesn't matter when this is happening at Duke. Just how is David Cutcliffe improving on the field and in the realm of recruiting with less than one full season under his belt? Of his 26 commitment, two are four-star, 10 are three-star, so he's not just getting the second best and table scraps.
How can he do it? Could it be that knows how to do it? I think so.

Lonnie - Don't try to prove your point with other programs - it doesn't work. Those who can not, or frankly will not allow themselves to admit that this ship has sunk and is currently sitting on the bottom, will need probably 2 more years of it, before they start to finally allow themselves to believe that we need to CUT our losses and move on.

Meanwhile, most of us will just have to endure through more losses.

Mean'n'Green07 · November 9, 2008

Lonnie,
You have some solid points in all of your posts. However, most all of these schools that you use as an example do not run the spread. Maybe they run a hybrid, where they mix it up. But not one like Dodge is trying to implement here. We have one receiver, it seems, that can stretch the field and that is Fitzgerald. Cutliffe runs a pro style offense, which is much easier to implement because it is basic as compared to the spread. Not negatively challenging you here, just asking, have you found a program that turned around so quick while changing the offensive system from one extreme to the other like is being attempted here at UNT?

Offense hasn't been a huge issue to me (I think we all knew switching to the spread would be difficult in the beginning). The two big issues are the awful defense and that the entire team has gotten progressively worse throughout Dodge's tenure.

GoMeanGreen1999 · November 9, 2008

Offense hasn't been a huge issue to me (I think we all knew switching to the spread would be difficult in the beginning). The two big issues are the awful defense and that the entire team has gotten progressively worse throughout Dodge's tenure.

I listened to the first half on my way down to Waco yesturday, and I thought the defense played very well, or at the very least, much better than they did at the first of the season. But if your offense can't score, your defense will wear down. I see improvement in the D, but I sure don't see it on the O.

Green Dozer · November 9, 2008

Offense hasn't been a huge issue to me (I think we all knew switching to the spread would be difficult in the beginning). The two big issues are the awful defense and that the entire team has gotten progressively worse throughout Dodge's tenure.

Nobody bashes Deloach about the defense. Why?

Green Dozer · November 9, 2008

I was at a party the other day and was talking to several A&M Century Club Gold and Diamond level members. All four told me they expected a losing season this year and next and a barely .500 season two years from now since they have brought in a new coach. They expect it to take them four years to be competitive but once Sherman has his system established, they expect to win a national title. They also said he might be able to do win sooner, but it would be foolish to expect that to happen.
We simply don't have the resources of an A&M. It will take time for our new coach to establish his system. People tied to the old system will be hurt and that is unfortunate. But, bringing in a new coach will simply start the three to four years over. Unless someone is just lucky, it takes a while to build a consistently winning football team, especially one with the quality character we want to represent NT.

Why would you write a post like this? It makes sense. Seriously, good post and thank you for having the courage to post it.

PHSCoach · November 10, 2008

We simply don't have the resources of an A&M. It will take time for our new coach to establish his system. People tied to the old system will be hurt and that is unfortunate. But, bringing in a new coach will simply start the three to four years over. Unless someone is just lucky, it takes a while to build a consistently winning football team, especially one with the quality character we want to represent NT.

14 tested positive you want more?

Green Dozer · November 10, 2008

14 tested positive you want more?

I know your son did not test positive, otherwise you would not be so quick to make light of the others. I am disappointed, I would expect something like you posted from a number of people including myself. Have any of the kids you coached over the years made mistakes, either at the same time or at different times? As somebody told me the other day, people are not as bad as their dumbest moment. You know, Coach Dodge did not roll the joints or open the pill bottles, these men of legal adult age made their choices. They have to take responsibility for their decisions, blame themselves and it is nobody's fault but their own. Still, mistake does not automatically reflect on their character. How they react to the adversity is more of an indication to their character.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Green Dozer

November 10, 2008

Cutcliffe? Didn't he fail at Ol Miss?

It wasn't for lack of coaching ability. He won 60% of his games; I believe that the legendary Johnny Vaught was the only one that had a better winning percentage there. He had one losing season (4-7) and he was canned. I didn't understand it at the time and I still don't.

Green Guy Bass · November 10, 2008

I know your son did not test positive, otherwise you would not be so quick to make light of the others. I am disappointed, I would expect something like you posted from a number of people including myself. Have any of the kids you coached over the years made mistakes, either at the same time or at different times? As somebody told me the other day, people are not as bad as their dumbest moment. You know, Coach Dodge did not roll the joints or open the pill bottles, these men of legal adult age made their choices. They have to take responsibility for their decisions, blame themselves and it is nobody's fault but their own. Still, mistake does not automatically reflect on their character. How they react to the adversity is more of an indication to their character.

Oh snap.

PHSCoach · November 10, 2008

I know your son did not test positive, otherwise you would not be so quick to make light of the others. I am disappointed, I would expect something like you posted from a number of people including myself. You know, Coach Dodge did not roll the joints or open the pill bottles, these men of legal age made their choices. They have to take responsibility for their decisions, blame themselves. It is nobody's fault but their own.

I just get tired of hearing how bad things were in the past and how great they are now. There are no consequences for their actions by the coaching staff. Dodge was only going to recruit the highest character and the left overs were not on the same level. Dodge was going to recruit speed and the old boys couldn't run out of the rain. That the players would line up all the way to the coast to play for Dodge, he would have his pick. I still see 3 players of the old team leading the team in receiving. I will wait to see all this speed and character. I'm tired of the talk. Dodge said before his first year "we run a simple offense. and it is up to the coaches to teach them this offense. and we can do that" maybe dumb and dumber didn't get the memo.

VideoEagle · November 10, 2008

14 tested positive you want more?

No I don't. I want more kids like the one's who were clean and less like the one's who didn't have enough sense to pass a drug test. I don't want the kids who will be trashing hotel rooms and shoplifting. I want more of the kids are intelligent enough to want to take advantage of playing football to get a free education.

Rebuilding a program is a painful process. I think Dan should still be the quarterback, but I don't get to make that decision. It's good that I don't get to make that decision as I'm not involved in the day to day practice, film study and game preparation. For now, I trust their judgement although there is a time limit.

Likewise, people on this board who are frustrated with the team not getting instantaneous results are not involved in the day to day operations of the athletic department and don't get to make the final decisions. I've heard from people involved with athletics back before DD was hired to expect three years of losing seasons, one of .500 and being competitive when a coaches first recruiting class are red-shirt seniors. Yes, some schools get lucky and things happen faster. But it isn't rational to expect that.

Not only people associated with NT say that, I've heard it from fans of A&M, Tennessee (they think it will take their next coach, whomever it is, six years to compete for the SEC championship) and other places. Patience is a difficult virtue to acquire, but one that is vital to long term sustained success.

PHSCoach · November 10, 2008

Not only people associated with NT say that, I've heard it from fans of A&M, Tennessee (they think it will take their next coach, whomever it is, six years to compete for the SEC championship) and other places. Patience is a difficult virtue to acquire, but one that is vital to long term sustained success.

Dodge has recruited good players that should grow into a good team, if the coaches do their jobs, and teach the young how to play at this level. I would like to see more of these players staying past one year. I would also like to see them contribute to the team when they are given the time to play. Yes the big schools need to get more great players to turn the program around. But the SBC should not take that long to see improvement. That is all that I would be looking for at this time.

Aquila_Viridis · November 10, 2008

No I don't. I want more kids like the one's who were clean and less like the one's who didn't have enough sense to pass a drug test. I don't want the kids who will be trashing hotel rooms and shoplifting. I want more of the kids are intelligent enough to want to take advantage of playing football to get a free education.
Rebuilding a program is a painful process. I think Dan should still be the quarterback, but I don't get to make that decision. It's good that I don't get to make that decision as I'm not involved in the day to day practice, film study and game preparation. For now, I trust their judgement although there is a time limit.
Likewise, people on this board who are frustrated with the team not getting instantaneous results are not involved in the day to day operations of the athletic department and don't get to make the final decisions. I've heard from people involved with athletics back before DD was hired to expect three years of losing seasons, one of .500 and being competitive when a coaches first recruiting class are red-shirt seniors. Yes, some schools get lucky and things happen faster. But it isn't rational to expect that.
Not only people associated with NT say that, I've heard it from fans of A&M, Tennessee (they think it will take their next coach, whomever it is, six years to compete for the SEC championship) and other places. Patience is a difficult virtue to acquire, but one that is vital to long term sustained success.

VE, pull your head out. We are not working toward competing for the SEC or Big 12 championship. I used to think we should wait to change until we could spend 3X more on coaches, but dude we are getting whacked even by the worst teams in D1. I'm going around with an eagle sticker on the car and the people who even recognize it just laugh. We got a bunch of clowns in there, and if you don't see that man you are BLIND. Some other teams are having less than laughable results paying the same level we are. There just is NO sign of life. What in the world makes you think this group will ever head in a different direction???????????? Besides that, did you see the stats TY posted? This goose is cooked.

NT80 · November 10, 2008

Duke hired David Cutcliffe following the 2007 season. Duke went 1-11 in 2007. In 2006, 0-12. In 2005, 1-11, in 2004, 2-9. Four year, four win and 43 losses. So, I wonder if the "cupboard was bare" when Cutcliffe arrived?
So, here is Duke in 2008 - four wins, five losses...26 commitments and there are still three games left in the season! Yes, without "his own players" he somehow matches the win total of the previous four years and has kids clamoring to get into his program.
Someone try to tell me coaching doesn't matter when this is happening at Duke. Just how is David Cutcliffe improving on the field and in the realm of recruiting with less than one full season under his belt? Of his 26 commitment, two are four-star, 10 are three-star, so he's not just getting the second best and table scraps.
How can he do it? Could it be that knows how to do it? I think so.

Good post. Turn arounds don't have to take four years to happen. It's a good excuse.