To The Anti Dodge Folks

[Green Dozer]

I have been reading many posts by people who think it is time for a change. Some of you make for some very compelling arguments as to why a change should be made. A lot sound like disgruntled parents taking their pop shots here. To the guys at TY, great story, and thanks for the diligent research. It was thought provoking to say the least, and I hope if we stay our present course we can re-shape history so to speak.

Yes, we have gotten some bad publicity concerning the drug tests that was exposed this past week. No program needs that kind of publicity, most especially ours at this point.We have had some good things happen recently. Most importantly, we had the athletic fee passed which has put us in a position to build the kind of facilities to have a consistently successful football program here at UNT. I have questioned how we are going to do it, and many have rightfully accused me of being negative at times. But we can all agree that we have a chance to really move forward. I have been around this program, having grown up in Denton, most of my life. I will not go into every bad decision, but will give an example of a few.

Lifer and I shared a memory of a game we both attended as kids at Fouts. It was in 1976 against Florida State, and I recall more than a few inches of snow on the ground. I believe out of 55 or 60 players that Florida State brought, only 19 had ever seen snow. Anyway, two future coaching legends coached that day. One was our own Hayden Fry, and the other was Bobby Bowden (his first year). Florida State was no powerhouse at that time, and I believe were in a significant rebuilding program themselves. We lost, but by only 1 point! (21-20). But since, as Lifer pointed out to me, our programs certainly took different roads.

What if we had kept Hayden Fry? I had a teacher who was the wife of Bill Brashear, the defensive coordinator at the time. I remember her saying that neither Coach Fry nor the coaching staff wanted to leave, but felt like they just could not get the support they needed here from a financial standpoint, and from the adm to build the kind of program they wanted to. Thus, they left for Iowa and we hired an assistant from Baylor named Jerry Moore. Coach Moore has won a national championship or two at App. State, and of course beat Michigan last year. Pretty good, what if he had the tools to build a program? Hayden Fry had the Hawkeyes in the Rose Bowl within three years.

The other example is the decision, when were Div. I sub AA, to play Nevada in a playoff game in Denton or go there. Our forward thinking decision maker( ) at the time, Walt Parker (who was also an NFL referee) was afraid we could not get enough turnout to cover the gate. So, the game was played there in a blizzard and we lost. If played here, many think we could have won, and gone on to win the championship that year. Man, that would have been a big step, given our history.

I believe we are at another one of those type of decisions today. You, know, with the exception of the drug stuff, we have not been the laughing stock of the DFW media, and nothing nationally. Oh, sure, Craig Miller takes his shots, but he would even if Bob Stoops left Oklahoma for here. But, for the most part, the DFW media likes Dodge, and has a lot of confidence in his ability to get things turned around. We are not yet this great laughing stock that some of you here think. In this next point, I want to say that I am not talking about the people who post here. But I believe if a coaching change is made, it is going to drive many people away from this program, and thus the potential of them making financial contributions to this program. They are going to say they are just tired of it. Most of those people, in my opinion, do not have the expectations of Dodge at this point that many on this board have. They have heard, and believe, that there is a lot of work to do in building this program.

Who can we afford to hire that would excite those folks to stay with us? We may know that the guy from say West Texas A&M has a lot of upside or this assistant from Big State U. is the next Pete Carroll, but the casual fan won't have a clue. I think a lot of these students, whether we want to admit it or not, voted for the fee because of the reputation that Dodge has from their high school days. He has certainly taken more interest in talking and meeting with the students than other coaches here in the past.

I know you gentlemen that do not approve of Dodge at this point will point to what this school or that team has done with so and so as coach in 2 years. I would say each situation is different. So, my question is, do you want to take a chance on the stadium project being put off because donors grow weary of this constant rebuilding? Because, I believe that could happen. Some of you say it wouldn't effect the stadium project because the athletic fee lets us start, but their not supporting this program will limit other things we could do to make this athletic program a consistent winner. A new coach could come in, may get 2, 3, or heck, maybe 5 wins next year. But it won't make that much difference. We will stay on the path we are on now, patching things here and there. Some of you old guys know what it means to use baling wire to hold things together, and keep plowing. Well, we will at some point run out of baling wire. Can Dodge do it? I don't know because I cannot tell you what is going to happen next week, much less next year. But I do think, under all of the present circumstances, think he has as good a chance as anybody else. Regardless of how I think it has to be done, we have to get that stadium up. If we are truly serious about building this program, we have to take the good and the bad. He should be able, within reason, be given the opportunity to coach through the end of his contract, and we as a university fulfill our commitment to building this program to that point. If we have the stadium, and a few other things are in place, we will be much better off than we presently are. If it were easy, every program would be a Notre Dame, TX, OU, or Michigan. We cannot continue to hand coaches at North Texas bb guns to hunt elephants.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Green Dozer

[Mean Green 93-98]

Lifer and I shared a memory of a game we both attended as kids at Fouts. It was in 1976 against Florida State, and I recall more than a few inches of snow on the ground. I believe out of 55 or 60 players that Florida State brought, only 19 had ever seen snow. Anyway, two future coaching legends coached that day. One was our own Hayden Fry, and the other was Bobby Bowden it was his first year at Florida St. Florida State was no powerhouse at that time, and I believe were in a significant rebuilding program themselves. We won! But since, as Lifer pointed out, our programs certainly took different roads.

You were there, and I wasn't--but every account of that game that I have read said that we lost to FSU.

I know that wasn't the point of your post, but thought you might want to correct either that or me.

[drex]

Nice post. Three corrections. One, we lost the Homecoming game to Florida State, secondly, we were not Division II, we were Division I, subset I-AA when we made the playoffs in Nevada and thirdly it was Walt Parker (Fred McCain's boss), not Fred McCain, who would not put up the money for a home playoff game.

[KRAM1]

I agree with GREEN DOZER...he makes some solid points...OK, now about that Florida State game...I was also in attendance...not many of us were, but I was and I had a date! Yes, a date was dumb enough to go with me to a North Texas game in the snow...ain't love grand? Anyway, i told here that the first team that scores will win due to the blizzard conditions. Well, North Texas scored first, but alas North Texas did lose! Now, you can see the truth...my predicting ability...or lact there of...goes back a long time!

But, to the point...I was also in a meeting at then Western State Bank where I worked in denton at the time when Hayden Fry walked in to tell us he was leaving North Texas for Iowa. This was BEFORE he told the athletic dept. He even took a pencil out and drew the "new" Hawkeye logo he was going to put on the uniforms and hats!!! Pretty cool...he also drew us the "Flying Worm" when he first arriveed...anyway...He did in fact say that he really wanted to stay, but that he felt that the support from the administration, athletic dept and the fan base simply was not there nor would it be there anytime soon to build North Texas into the program he wanted it to be...and KNEW it could be with the support! TRUE STORY!!!!!

Folks, that is a good bit of the reason I am so vocal about giving Dodge the opportunity to be successful right here and in pleading for everyone's support...and why I try to stay positive about the program and urge others to do so. North Texas LOST a great coach due to some of the same "stuff" some folks on this board what to make happen.

So, Green Dozen...nicely laid out and nicely done. I am with you...GREAT POST. I hope folks actually read the post and then think long and hard about what you are really trying to share with them...no rushing to judgement and no "spelling and grammer" comments...jsut think about it folks...this is important.

GO MEAN GREEN!

[Green Dozer]

Nice post. Three corrections. One, we lost the Homecoming game to Florida State, secondly, we were not Division II, we were Division I, subset I-AA when we made the playoffs in Nevada and thirdly it was Walt Parker (Fred McCain's boss), not Fred McCain, who would not put up the money for a home playoff game.

Thanks. Sorry, will correct.

[shaft]

What is there to think about.

Dodge owns the worst start in school history.

Dodge owns the worst blowouts in school history.

RV gets the credit for the stadium vote, not Dodge.

Dodge is so bad has a coach he's having must wins games against d1aa transitional teams.

[NT80]

Fry left NT because of our facilities, lack of fans, lack of funding, and more $$ in salary at Iowa for him and his assistants. Jerry Moore replaced Fry's wide open offense with his Nebraska-I. He was only 11-11 at NT then moved on to Tech but didn't last long there either. He only had success at App State when he changed to a wide open offense, like Fry had way back in 1978.

Fans won't be driven away from a coaching change after a 2-22 start. They are smart enough to know something needed to be changed if that happens. I like Coach Dodge and his leadership abilities, just not sure how good he is at a rebuilding job.

Edited October 31, 2008 by NT80

[UNTLifer]

Good post Green Dozier!

[Green Nightmare]

I am so confused and torn

Every day I see saw on the issue of Dodge

[Got5onIt]

I am so confused and torn

Every day I see saw on the issue of Dodge

COME TO THE DARKSIDE.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Got5onIt

[Green Dozer]

What is there to think about.

Dodge owns the worst start in school history.

Dodge owns the worst blowouts in school history.

RV gets the credit for the stadium vote, not Dodge.

Dodge is so bad has a coach he's having must wins games against d1aa transitional teams.

No, a few more people helped Rick this time, and Dodge was a big reason for that. We lost the vote the last time, even though we were in a championship run. Let's see, who was in charge of the vote then? Oh, yea Rick. No, sorry Shaft, but Dodge's reputation with the students and work helped deliver the vote. And the work of course, of Derrick Murray and the support of the SGA. No, Rick can't and should not have all of the credit for the stadium

[Green Dozer]

Fry left NT because of our facilities, lack of fans, lack of funding, and more $$ in salary at Iowa for him and his assistants. Jerry Moore replaced Fry's wide open offense with his Nebraska-I. He was only 11-11 at NT then moved on to Tech but didn't last long there either. He only had success at App State when he changed to a wide open offense, like Fry had way back in 1978.

Fans won't be driven away from a coaching change after a 2-22 start. They are smart enough to know something needed to be changed if that happens. I like Coach Dodge and his leadership abilities, just not sure how good he is at a rebuilding job.

Sorry, if Dodge leaves, there will not be 15,000 people watching a new no name coach.

[UNT_playmaker]

There will be more than 15,000 to see our games if we bring in a new coach.

Im sorry but people arent coming to these games this season to see Dodge.... How many SLC people from Southlake come to our games not many..... I don't see ANY dragon logos on the back of anyone's cars. I remember when some said that if Dodge came in we would see an additional several thousand people in the stands from SLC, that was a joke.

We can win at least one OOC game and some conference games, I think we will have better attendance than we have now....I can assure you nobody comes into Fouts to see Dodge coach.

[Got5onIt]

Sorry, if Dodge leaves, there will not be 15,000 people watching a new no name coach.

Dickey drove fans away. New fans will come with a new coach. Dodge isn't as much of a Superman as you think he is.

[NT80]

Sorry, if Dodge leaves, there will not be 15,000 people watching a new no name coach.

Fans don't come to see Dodge, they come to see NT win. They come to see what was the promise of renewal and hope from Dickey's last two losing seasons. The same will happen after another new coach comes...and the hope of winning is reborn once more.

Edited November 1, 2008 by NT80

[SUMG]

There will be more than 15,000 to see our games if we bring in a new coach.

I agree with Playmaker on this.

One thing that RV deserves a lot of credit on, is this: Through his emphasis on tailgating and making the Game Day experience a lot of fun...I think that is a key reason why our attendance hasn't lagged. I go to the games now....just to see friends, tailgate...and the game is almost secondary. Trust me, if we were winning, the game wouldn't be secondary. I'm talking about UNT right now.

I've not given up on Dodge. But next year....we better be getting a lot closer to .500. Another awful year next year....and I will be ready to pull the plug on this experiment.

And it is an experiment. One thing that you left out of your analysis Green Dozer is this: We're trying to see if for maybe the first time in Div. 1-A college football history, a coach can make the move up...from HIGH SCHOOL to college.

So far, Dodge has failed miserably. But I've not given up on him..........yet.

Edited November 1, 2008 by SUMG

[Green Dozer]

First of all, I did not say they are coming to see "Dodge coach". But, people will grow tired of the constant change and promises that we are headed in this or that direction with this coach or when we change again if a few years because he didn't make it. We fired a guy two years removed from 4 conference championships saying we were headed in the wrong direction. We hire a man to take us in the right direction, and we are this made after two seasons. You want, average then lets make a change. If you don't lets take a risk, and see if it pays off. Again, nobody can meet the expectations we have until the we get the stadium, get more support, and more money. We need to stick with a plan and get some big pieces of the puzzle in place. Again, maybe a few more wins from a new coach, but it will be same boring barely getting by program that it has been for many years.

[Green Dozer]

Fans don't come to see Dodge, they come to see NT win. They come to see what was the promise of renewal and hope from Dickey's last two losing seasons. The same will happen after another new coach comes...and the hope of winning is reborn once more.

Let me clarify, I did not mean people come to watch Todd Dodge coach. Its the constant change that shows a lack of direction in the program. When are we going to wake up and realize its not all the coaches' faults that we are where we are. I think why Fry left still holds true today (like you put it):

Per NT 80: "Fry left NT because of our facilities, lack of fans, lack of funding, and more $$ in salary at Iowa for him and his assistants"

We are still throwing pennies while other are throwing dollars, yet we expect to have a big time program at a bargain price. Not going to happen.

[NT80]

Its the constant change that shows a lack of direction in the program.

All programs are in a constant state of change if they are not performing. Most 1-A head coaches are less than 5 years average at their current jobs, then either move up to a larger program or NFL or get fired because of lack of progress. The Joe Paternos and Bobby Bowdens are few. The Big 12 alone has three new coaches this season and six with three years or less experience.

[Green Dozer]

All programs are in a constant state of change if they are not performing. Most 1-A head coaches are less than 5 years average at their current jobs, then either move up to a larger program or NFL or get fired because of lack of progress. The Joe Paternos and Bobby Bowdens are few. The Big 12 alone has three new coaches this season and six with three years or less experience.

OK, good points. And we certainly have not performed well over the years. Only team to got to a bowl game with a losing record. There has not been any consistency since Fry left. Dickey's job was always in question, and we have had the same mode of operation for many years. I am not saying we find a Joe Paterno or anything, but why don't we try to give this coach what he said he needed (i.e. a stadium) and see how it works out. Why don't we throw more money at the program (ie more donors) and see what happens. Two seasons is not enough, and three isn't either. But, you were the one that said Fry left for good reasons you listed. Also, see Kram's post about Fry coming into the bank before he left for Iowa. Not much in the way of has changed for any of the coaches since him, including Dodge. Oh, Dr B and Pohl have been pro athletics, but the alumni are very apathetic when it comes to giving money for this program. Again, we want these men to pull miracles with very limited resources. I think you make some good points, but this is not the right time to change coaches, and I think we that is where we disagree.

[Green Dozer]

Dickey drove fans away. New fans will come with a new coach. Dodge isn't as much of a Superman as you think he is.

No where did I say he was Superman. We got a lot of bang for our buck when we brought him here with the media coverage. We still get a lot of it because of him. I do not like things on the field anymore than you do, it is unacceptable. But, if we are in this for the long haul, and we want to really build a strong program, then we need to stick with our plan. You could bring a million dollar a year coach in here right now (which we cannot afford) and if that is all that changes, it will be the same barely getting by program that its been, getting our teeth kicked in at OOC games, and being average at the lowest tiered conference in DIV 1. I do not expect the Big 12, but I aspire to be better than our present conference. I kind of took the attitude when Dodge came, and would have felt the same no matter who it was, that we were on a 5 to 10 year plan in building a real program. I thought it was like a South Florida, except we were fielding a team the first year or two. No, I don't think Dodge wears a cape, but short of a bunch of thugs running loose from a team, I would give any coach more time if I wanted to build a program in the right way (stadium, better facilities, etc.) . Again, we seem to want a quick fix, and fix problems we have had for years. Well, the program did not get in the shape it has overnight, and it will not be fixed that quick, no matter who the coach is.

[NT80]

OK, good points. And we certainly have not performed well over the years. Only team to got to a bowl game with a losing record. There has not been any consistency since Fry left. Dickey's job was always in question, and we have had the same mode of operation for many years. I am not saying we find a Joe Paterno or anything, but why don't we try to give this coach what he said he needed (i.e. a stadium) and see how it works out. Why don't we throw more money at the program (ie more donors) and see what happens. Two seasons is not enough, and three isn't either. But, you were the one that said Fry left for good reasons you listed. Also, see Kram's post about Fry coming into the bank before he left for Iowa. Not much in the way of has changed for any of the coaches since him, including Dodge. Oh, Dr B and Pohl have been pro athletics, but the alumni are very apathetic when it comes to giving money for this program. Again, we want these men to pull miracles with very limited resources. I think you make some good points, but this is not the right time to change coaches, and I think we that is where we disagree.

It does take more resources and I agree Dodge is due the stadium he was promised when he took the job. But he, like Fry, also understood the circumstances and current resources available at NT and came with a "football plan" that was deemed worthy of any-level competition. Fry made it work but for Dodge it hasn't happened yet. Perhaps it will with some more time.

We fans will soon be asked for donations to the new stadium project and program's future. I hope the majority can look beyond the current won/loss records and give generously. We seem to have no Boone Pickens.

[eulessismore]

It does take more resources and I agree Dodge is due the stadium he was promised when he took the job. But he, like Fry, also understood the circumstances and current resources available at NT and came with a "football plan" that was deemed worthy of any-level competition. Fry made it work but for Dodge it hasn't happened yet. Perhaps it will with some more time.

We fans will soon be asked for donations to the new stadium project and program's future. I hope the majority can look beyond the current won/loss records and give generously. We seem to have no Boone Pickens.

Anyone wishing we had a Boone Pickens hasn't been keeping up with what happened at Oklahoma State.

[NT80]

Anyone wishing we had a Boone Pickens hasn't been keeping up with what happened at Oklahoma State.

What, like this....

Oct 28, 2008 7:17 am US/Central

Pickens Gives $63 Million More To OSU Sports

STILLWATER, Okla. (AP) ― Billionaire booster T. Boone Pickens will give another $63 million in cash to Oklahoma State to finish the renovation of the football stadium that bears his name. Pickens announced his latest in a line of gifts to his alma mater Monday and also said he would be returning to the school the $125 million that remained from its investment in a hedge fund he'd been managing since donating a record-breaking $165 million to the university in January 2006.

[eulessismore]

What, like this....

Oct 28, 2008 7:17 am US/Central

Pickens Gives $63 Million More To OSU Sports

STILLWATER, Okla. (AP) ― Billionaire booster T. Boone Pickens will give another $63 million in cash to Oklahoma State to finish the renovation of the football stadium that bears his name. Pickens announced his latest in a line of gifts to his alma mater Monday and also said he would be returning to the school the $125 million that remained from its investment in a hedge fund he'd been managing since donating a record-breaking $165 million to the university in January 2006.

Maybe it will all work out well for them after all. I still don't think he'll be of much help to North Texas football.