One Excuse That Needs To Die

[emmitt01]

We can't have it both ways folks. Either we have great players coming into this program under Todd Dodge...or we don't. We love to rave about the recruiting classes that Dodge has put together. We love to point out ad nauseum how they stack up against other non-BCS (and even some BCS) level schools. Then we like to say we are losing because we just "don't have the horses"? Huh? Look at who we put out on the field. It's the same players that he brought in here to much applause! And in many cases he benched the "tainted" guys from the Dickey regime...if not for being less talented then why?

Is the crop of DB's that he brought in young, fast and talented...or are they not? We said they were when they signed here...why now do they get a pass for playing 10 yards off their man and then backpeddling? Are the linebackers that he brought here, a few that we beat out schools for, talented...or are they not? And don't even get me started on the 40 WR's that we've signed in the last two seasons...yet a walk-on who is a Dickey "leftover" is the only guy capable of making the crucial catches and fighting for the ball. Shouldn't we have some "horses" amongst this group? After all, they are hand picked by Todd Dodge for his system.

What I am seeing some on here do is like excusing a chef who buys the groceries, prepares the meal, cooks it...and then presents slop and gets to slide because "the restaurant was bad before he got there." I for one am tired of this excuse. If you want to say these guys are young and that they just need seasoning then fine...but I'd expect to see improvement as the year wears on.

Might it be time to pull Southlake Jesus off that cross?

Edited October 26, 2008 by emmitt01

[GreenTeam]

AMEN brotha..... I couldnt have said that better myself..... Dodge seems to get a pass around here because of his HS success but nothing he has done around here resembles that something better is awaiting the Mean Green after this season.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---If we are bringing great players into the program.... then we are awful at motivating them... pick one... plus we are giving up 50 points per game....no one is worse. Even with good sophs and freshman we should win a few or at least look better than we do... After all we are not playing the schedule that UT is playing every week ...... a top 20 team and most in the top 10 and many undefeated. .

[GoMeanGreen1999]

What I am seeing some on here do is like excusing a chef who buys the groceries, prepares the meal, cooks it...and then presents slop and gets to slide because "the restaurant was bad before he got there." I for one am tired of this excuse. If you want to say these guys are young and that they just need seasoning then fine...but I'd expect to see improvement as the year wears on.

Might it be time to pull Southlake Jesus off that cross?

See I would tend to fall in line with this thought. And frankly I think most on the board do, they just don't want to admit this thing isn't working or at least admit it publically. I still say though, if they go 0-12 he won't be back.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

Anyone who has seen a game this year knows that this is not working. Of course, the question is...why is it not working?

Lack of talent? Many of the players now on the field chose us over other offers; in a few cases a lot of other offers. Our lowest-ranked players were ranked higher by Rivals and Scout than the majority of the players recruited by Dickey. Their 40 speeds are better also. We have a lot of skill players that run better than a 4.60, per DCTF and other sources. No, I don't think that we are suffering from a lack of talent.

Lack of experience? Yes, the current starters suffer from lack of playing experience but other teams play underclassmen with much better results. Many have had to learn new systems and in some cases a new position. It does have a bearing but most of the players have now started eight to twenty plus games by now. Add that to their playing experience in high school and below and we're not talking about a raw rookie out there. Lack of experience may be a factor but it doesn't account for blowouts that we've suffered lately.

Lack of coaching? This seems to be the most plausible explanation. In some cases they do not appear to be taught fundamentals. It's hard to know if this is by design or oversight. Are they just carrying out the captain's orders or do they lack teaching skills? Somehow I think that most of our coaches are capable of teaching what they know if given the chance. One reason that I say this is that there seems to be little or no improvement when coaches are replaced so maybe the new coaches are given the same orders. Two other observations...the players do not play with a great deal of enthusiasm or emotion and seem too leery of making mistakes to just let their instincts take over. They're not playing to win, they're playing to not lose. Coaching can overcome that.

Morale problems? Is their heart really in it? Is their lack of hard hitting due to not caring? Are there issues that divide the team and cause them not to give their best? Do they totally buy-in to the system? We have no real way of knowing this because there is so much privacy. Coaches and players do not seem allowed to speak except on special occasions.

Off of the field problems? These are problems that would get us in dutch with the NCAA; things that are checked periodically by the Association. There are some rumors here but I don't know of anyone outside the team, coaches and perhaps some of the staff that know how much truth there is to this and how widespread the problem may be. Perhaps we'll know something soon.

Is the romance gone from the Dodge hire? Maybe not totally yet but it's fading fast.

[NM Green]

I think at the end of the day what you have is young players playing their hardest and learning the new system. Even youngsters who play on other teams have more seasoned players to provide leadership, passion and fire. The person who said we are a JV playing a Varsity every weekend is not far off. That is why I think we get blown out. Other teams simply have better ready to play players and know the system they are working in. We have none of those elements in year 2. Gonna be year 4 before this machine takes off.

[DeepGreen]

Other teams simply have better ready to play players and know the system they are working in. We have none of those elements in year 2. Gonna be year 4 before this machine takes off.

With all due respect NMGreen, how does a new coach come in at Rice and install a new system in his first year and is somewhat successful?

[NM Green]

Hi Deep. I would bet that he used some of the old system's players and their leadership to help the transition into a new system. It just seems like Dodge is using some of the old players but he seems to really be using most of his new players to plant the new system. After watching Hawaii take some time to plant a new system, I realize it takes time. June Jones system only worked well with the Colt Brennan, Davon Bess' of the world and there was a natural buildup of their skill to reach their run to the Sugar Bowl.

Anyways after sitting in Fouts and in H-Town I have never seen anything like what I am watching. I am not even sure we have the right coach. However, I also know that if we switch gears now we are looking at 2 more years of gutting this system and planting a new one. I hope to see improvement in '09 and a run in 10.

GMG

[LongJim]

Scoring offense: 114th nationally. 8th in Belt. Cannot put ball in end zone. One reason is because...

Running game is 98th. 6th in Belt. Cannot run when necessary. Depth/strength of line.

Passing efficiency is only 93rd--8th--even with the Fling N Sling--because Vizza is running for his life, and his receivers cannot get open because UNT has minimal run threat, and can barely keep Vizza upright in passing situations as UNT in...

Sacks allowed is 67th. 5th in Belt. You would think maybe this would be better due to UNT's 'wide open' offense, but you cannot have ANY effective offense without consistent line play, and cannot pass effectively without being able to run when necessary.

Rushing defense is 99th. 5th in Belt. Cannot stop run effectively. Give up over 5 ypp. 186ypg. Line is manhandled every game. Depth/strength of line.

Tackles for loss is 92nd. 7th. Cannot pressure QB without blitzing. Line manhandled. depth/strength of line.

Sacks 113th. 8th. Cannot pressure QB without blitzing. Line manhandled. Less than 1 spg. depth/strength of line.

Pass efficiency defense 119th. 8th. Cannot pressure QB without blitzing. Line manhandled. Secondary cannot cover all day long. depth/strength of line.

Scoring defense 119th. 8th.

Total defense 118th. 8th.

Various people watching the team have said they haven't quit.

If so, then all of the above speaks to at least one or more of the following: inexperience, young players who are not at an S&C level equal or greater than their opponent, talent level, or depth. Poor offensive/defensive coaching cannot be the issue--can it?

Special Teams: This is 85% want to and desire. 5% discipline, and 5% coaching. Don't know what the hell is going on here, frankly.

Net Punting 111th. 7th.

Punt returns 110th. 8th.

KO returns 118th. 8th.

I see talented skill players, lots of young players, patchwork OL/DL, and no depth at the OL/DL.

[Stan R]

Here's what I don't get. Cam Montgomery was very effective in the limited carries that he had during the Troy game. I can remember at least two runs that reminded me a bit of Marion Barber where he turns no gains into 8 yard gains. He has the power to get you 5 yards per carry. I remember someone saying when TD was first hired here that if TD has a talented running back he would use it effectively. That is the one thing I DON'T see happening. Maybe TD's ridiculous screen passes for 2 yards he loves so much would be more effective if we were at 3rd and and 2 instead of 3rd and 10. I just don't get why he won't use his running game more when it seems to be the area with the most talent at this point.

Am I wrong here?

[PHSCoach]

Lack of talent? Many of the players now on the field chose us over other offers; in a few cases a lot of other offers. Our lowest-ranked players were ranked higher by Rivals and Scout than the majority of the players recruited by Dickey. Their 40 speeds are better also. We have a lot of skill players that run better than a 4.60, per DCTF and other sources. No, I don't think that we are suffering from a lack of talent.

I have been waiting for 18 games to see this speed you keep talking about. We have started the same slow ass receivers for most of the year. Brock (I love this kid) could not run faster than a 4.65, Casey runs about a 4.65 where are these 4.5 kids? I guess they are not receivers.

NFL scout has Santiago ranked 42 at OG and Bailey at 47 ( oh wait Bailey is not good enough to play for Dodge, he is a DD boy, and this line cannot block, that is all I read from the adm. people on this board) Lefty has done a great job getting time for this off. to work maybe other coaches should get their players open or to make reads and get the ball out.

Lack of experience? Yes, the current starters suffer from lack of playing experience but other teams play underclassmen with much better results. Many have had to learn new systems and in some cases a new position. It does have a bearing but most of the players have now started eight to twenty plus games by now. Add that to their playing experience in high school and below and we're not talking about a raw rookie out there. Lack of experience may be a factor but it doesn't account for blowouts that we've suffered lately.

In D1 you are a rookie for the first two games and you had better learn what the real world looks like because if you don't you are going to get your ass kicked. It is up to the coaches to put you into a position and teach you so you can excell. This new system is bull the line men are still blocking the receivers are still running routes the def is still playing the same type of positions that reguire you to make tackles. And again it is up to the coaching staff to get the players in position to excell.

Morale problems? Is their heart really in it? Is their lack of hard hitting due to not caring? Are there issues that divide the team and cause them not to give their best? Do they totally buy-in to the system? We have no real way of knowing this because there is so much privacy. Coaches and players do not seem allowed to speak except on special occasions.

These player have put their blood and sweet on the practice field in the past. The hold overs have gone through blood ally and the rest of DD 4 hour practices. Now to get ready for Troy they had to go inside and practice for 45 min. They must have been ready or the coaching staff sure as hell let them down. This team is not divided all players want the same thing that is to win. The only problem with morale, is the players are uncertain of their status, whether they will be benched because they are a DD boy or not the one of Dodge's most current recruits. All the players want is to be told is what is expected of them and not lied too. They will do whatever the coaches ask of them, this is what they have learned to get to this point. Can these players hit hard, only if that is the way they practice and they practice the way the coaching staff wants. This BS about players not buying into a system does not fly these players stayed with the program and many, well over 65%, are the ones that came into this system.

Off of the field problems? These are problems that would get us in dutch with the NCAA; things that are checked periodically by the Association. There are some rumors here but I don't know of anyone outside the team, coaches and perhaps some of the staff that know how much truth there is to this and how widespread the problem may be. Perhaps we'll know something soon.

Off the field problem are small compaired to the problems that are cause by George and Ford. This board should get off the players and how they can not perform and get to the real problem total lack of coaching and the BS these two want to hand out. Maybe the players last year were right they just couldn't prove it. Lets see what the young players have learned, they came into the system highly ranked now is the time to see progress.

[nautique]

The running game is effective after teams get a big lead and sit back and play pass defense the rest of the night. When the games are close early on, that is the time we struggle to run the ball.

We get behind so fast, that we have to throw the stupid ball 50 and 60 times and the teams know that. Problem is that we don't have the types of WR's that you need to have to run this type of offense. These DB's just "sit down" in coverage on the short routes knowing we don't have the speed the stretch the field. Throwing lanes are tight. If you watch the high powered offenses, they have all day to throw and have wide open WR's. Our QB's have to throw into tight coverage just about every throw.

I talked a QB who has already left the program, he told me that is UNT's biggest problem, no speed to keep DB's honest. Dodge's game is tough to play in with your WR's covered like glue.

Ask Justin Padron about what is his brother felt like the difference was at slc vs. unt. in regards to the offense.

Edited October 27, 2008 by nautique

[PHSCoach]

The running game is effective after teams get a big lead and sit back and play pass defense the rest of the night. When the games are close early on, that is the time we struggle to run the ball.

Ths first time Cam ran the ball last game was around the 8 min mark in the second quarter

Edited October 27, 2008 by PHSCoach

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

Our offensive line is getting a bad rap in my opinion. I have watched a lot of plays intent on seeing just what the offensive line does. Their blocking scheme seems pretty simple and they maintain the opposing linemen very well. Occasionally a rusher will go wide around a tackle but mostly they contain the opposition long enough to complete a pass if the receiver is open. More often than not the opposing rusher putting pressure on Vizza is a blitzing linebacker/safety and no one is there to pick him up. Now I have noticed that sometimes he runds by a tackle who seemingly has no one to block. Are they taught to look elsewhere if they are not engaged?

I would guess that the pressure that Vizza receives comes from a receiver not bing open. The few sacks that we have suffered comes primarily from holding on to the ball too long. A lot of the pressures come from a defender lined up wide who comes right in untouched. If you want to give Vizza time to throw it seems to me that you would need an H-back to stay in and block and maybe become a safety valve.

[Stan R]

Ths first time Cam ran the ball last game was around the 8 min mark in the second quarter

Ridiculous. And I'm starting to believe your coaching opinions as well. What a freaking mess.

[KRAM1]

Some really decent comments here folks...some, well, just the same "stuff" that has been posted after every loss. PHSCoach...2 games at D1...how much D1 head coaching experience do you have anyway...just wondering, not "calling you out" or anything like that...your comments are good, just wondeing about your college level D1 coaching experience.

I really dislike the "Southlake Jesus" comment. Totally uncalled for and disrespectful in so many ways and on so many levels. And, folks who know me certainly know that I am not some right-wing religious fundamentalist. If you must be so disrespectful in your comments, pick another venue PLEASE!

I was puzzeled as to why we kicked that field goal to make it 10 points? Geeezzzzzzz, down by as much as we were at the time, why kick a field goal? Why not go for it on 4th down? What lose by three more poits if you don't amke the 4th down? Who would really care?

I saw some things that encouraged me a bit Saturday, but it does seem that the "spirit" of the team is really down. I do not know why that is...several folks here have provided their "reasoning", but I am 100% certain that the players...all of them are trying VERY hard. The idea that they cannot win because they do not "know their place on the team" also has me puzzled. Folks, that's life...no guarantees...I had had several changes in bosses during my career and what was good for one wasn't so much for the other...I had some that thought I "could do no wrong" and others, well, I was certainly not their "fair haired boy". That's the way it is...you just "suck it up", put in a full day, do the best you can and see where it takes you.

So, question...do we have leaders on this team around whom the players can rally if, as some say here, that there are coaches "hurting their feelings"? What about some closed door players only meetings? Is that happening? Can the players take the coaches out of the picture when it comes to this sort of thing? I think UNT has a great core of young quality players and a good group of older/experienced hold-overs from the DD days. So, why not lead and show that just because you are a so-called "hold-over" not getting as much playing time that you might actually deserve that you can't be a real asset to the team and the younger plaers? You think that kind of attitude along with some very hard practice work might just get you more playing time? Do you think a "hang dog" attitude might cut into playing time? I don't know and I am NOT blaming the players, but with the talent UNT DOES have on this team, where are the leaders? Maybe they are there, I don't know.....

I would bet that at 0-12 Dodge returns....BUT, this team will not go 0-12! UNT beats WKY on the road this week!

GO MEAN GREEN!!!!

[LongJim]

It is up to the coaches to put you into a position and teach you so you can excell. This new system is bull the line men are still blocking the receivers are still running routes the def is still playing the same type of positions that reguire you to make tackles. And again it is up to the coaching staff to get the players in position to excell.

You can be put in position to excel all day long, and if the guy in front of you kicks your ass repeatedly all game, you are going to lose. Being out of position is not the major reason that the defense is 119th in scoring defense, 118th in total defense, and 99th against the run. If it is, then the 2006 team that got pistol-whipped by MTSU in 2006 under Dickey, and then pistol-whipped last year by Troy under Mendoza, and then pistol-whipped by Troy this year under DeLoach are receiving pretty poor coaching on a consistent basis.

In 2005, with a run-based offense, UNT scored less than 20 points in Belt play 4 out of 7 games. In no game did they score over 28 points. This is where you saw dominating OL/DL line play at UNT disappear, although it actually started the year before.

In 2006, with a run-based offense, UNT scored less than 20 points in Belt play in 6 out of 7 games, including the absolute demolition at home against Troy MTSU.

If you look at stats, 2004 was the beginning of the Belt catching up, and UNT falling off.

In 2003, UNT scored 358 points. They gave up 285. (Run first, ball control offense.) 9-4 SBC champs.

In 2004, UNT scored 309 points. They gave up 358. (Run first, ball control offense.) 7-5 SBC champs.

In 2005, UNT scored 157 points. They gave up 346. (Run first, ball control offense.) 2-9

In 2006, UNT scored 154 points. They gave up 304. (Run first, ball control offense.) 3-9

In 2007, UNT scored 298 points. They gave up 541. (Pass first offense.) 2-10

Either UNT's coaches have not been putting players in position to win for over 4 years, or the recruiting level has not kept pace with the Belt's elite teams.

Edited October 27, 2008 by LongJim

[SUMG]

I still attend the games, and am still a member of the MGC....and I'll do that next year, as well.

BUT........I am sick of Todd Dodge and his elitist bullcrap. He brought a lot of Southlake snobbery up here to Denton.

We put our players in hotels on the nights before home games. That's something we'd never done before. (I know other "big schools" do that. But, I bet you we're the only SBC team that does it).

He makes his practices/scrimmages off limits to the fans. A lot of good the Dodge super secrecy has done us.

Supposedly, we have spent time and money....going several times this year to McKinney to practice in their indoor practice facility.

And then, on last Wednesday...since it was a bit chilly....we practiced inside at the PEB??? (Maybe a parent of a player will elaborate on this).

If those last two things are true....that's pathetic.

And finally....I know some have given him some credit....but what exactly did Dodge do to help get the stadium initiative passed? What? Please tell me.

Edited October 27, 2008 by SUMG

[KRAM1]

SUMG...you have a vaild point about the hotels and indoor practices. I question that myself...doesn't seem to get getting the team anywhere. And, UNT does not need that type of "eliteism". Should be as OPEN and as fan friendly as possible through this tough period for the team and its fan base. Valid points!

[wardly]

you would think that a well coached team, regardless of the overall talent, could play just one facet of the game well. we are near the last in everything.

[NM Green]

My only disagreement is that if you want to be like a big time school you need to act like one. All of these little Dodge extras remind me of Cuban's little extras to help the players feel like they chose the right University/team to play for.

I want results too, but it's not the monumental changes, but a bunch of little ones that will help us right this ship. We have lost the toughness that UNT has been known for over the decades, but I am okay with the "bells and whistles" if it provides focus and has a goal in mind.

Let him run this ship, and I still believe that when this team finally wins a light bulb is going to go off and we are going to be in for one heck of a ride!

GMG

[medpilot21]

I still attend the games, and am still a member of the MGC....and I'll do that next year, as well.

BUT........I am sick of Todd Dodge and his elitist bullcrap. He brought a lot of Southlake snobbery up here to Denton.

We put our players in hotels on the nights before home games. That's something we'd never done before. (I know other "big schools" do that. But, I bet you we're the only SBC team that does it).

He makes his practices/scrimmages off limits to the fans. A lot of good the Dodge super secrecy has done us.

Supposedly, we have spent time and money....going several times this year to McKinney to practice in their indoor practice facility.

And then, on last Wednesday...since it was a bit chilly....we practiced inside at the PEB??? (Maybe a parent of a player will elaborate on this).

If those last two things are true....that's pathetic.

And finally....I know some have given him some credit....but what exactly did Dodge do to help get the stadium initiative passed? What? Please tell me.

Have to agree with you there, pardna. I was talking to Emmitt and some of the guys Saturday about this. I can take my son to a SMU practice, run by June Jones, with a new offense, and it's 15 minutes from my house. But, I CANNOT take my son to watch a team practice that he grew up watching? I know this is no longer a Darrell Dickey-run program, but let's be honest... this team needs all the fan support it can get? There are no more trade secrets to hide with this offense. The "spread" is no longer a novelty? Other teams surely dont need a spy at NT practices to handle what we are putting on the field right now. Let your fans and Alums be a part of this thing somewhere? Allow us access to what few practices we have left this season, and show us there is more to this football team than the beatings we take every freakin saturday. As most can tell from game-day attendance, the majority of the faithful have not given up on these guys. Let us be there when the good things happen in practice. The players feed off of crowd noise and enthusiasm, so let us give them some. Who knows, sometimes a little good karma can go a long way.

I realize TD wont budge on this... but with a new stadium is on the way?, might be time for a few "realistic" changes in policy.

GMG!!!

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

It's hi-larious that Todd Dodge doesn't open practices. I mean, who isn't dying to watch and crack the open the secrets of an 0-8 team? So goofy.

[TIgreen01]

Couple of questions and opinions.

I, too, see the oline doing a MUCH better job than last year and they seem to get better every game. I also see WR's open all over the field....problem is we'll have read the defense before the play and will seemingly force the play into the coverage many times. Maybe I'm just blind, I really don't know...but I've seen WRs open, maybe not open deep (where a few long plays would to along way to REALLY opening up the coverage) as much as we need, though.

The other thing is whether or not the players are quitting in games. Maybe quit is the wrong word, but to me, it seems that we've lost confidence at some point in every single game to the point that the players are slumping their shoulders and playing hesitant. I've heard alot of people say that the team is not quitting and they are trying, but I don't see it....I see a team really not hustling once the game gets out of reach....not everyone, mind you, but enough that plays just break down. Good example is this last game against Troy. The defense came out a little fired up, had a few plays go against them and were down big quick. Instead of quitting early, they seemed to bow up a little bit in that second quarter and finished the half strong. Then the second half started and Troy runs the trick play on their first play....you could see their confidence get shattered and they started playing back on their heels. I guess that's the thing I see....the difference between guys playing back on their heels and waiting for the play to come to them versus attacking the ball once the ball is snapped. Am I seeing it wrong? Maybe that's not quit, but when you can see guys making half hearted attempts to tackle ball carriers and not wrapping up and just flat out getting stood up and pushed back it sure looks like it.

[PHSCoach]

In 2006, with a run-based offense, UNT scored less than 20 points in Belt play in 6 out of 7 games, including the absolute demolition at home against Troy.

Either UNT's coaches have not been putting players in position to win for over 4 years, or the recruiting level has not kept pace with the Belt's elite teams.

Sorry I do not agree with you demolition against Troy in 2006 the score was 6 UNT 14 Troy total yards was something like 230 to 245 I don't have time to look up the other stats I will take your word on that but..

You were very quick to Run down the previous staff but this staff has done nothing but you want to support then so make it the players????????????