Andy "avenger" Hogue

[Green Mean]

For anybody in the know, this was posted by somebody at the Daily. Does anybody know if this has or would have any merit?

Hot Carl

posted 10/21/08 @ 12:27 PM CST

Wow, I just overheard some higher ups talking about how this election was very suspect... how they did it and what they did. Very slimy people. I think they did put one up on the students. Im sad to hear this.

[greenminer]

For anybody in the know, this was posted by somebody at the Daily. Does anybody know if this has or would have any merit?

smoke blower!

[Quoner]

For anybody in the know, this was posted by somebody at the Daily. Does anybody know if this has or would have any merit?

F - I hear he is pretty connected.

[greenminer]

I ventured over and found Carl has a big glass of milk to spill. The gist? We've all been deceived. Athletics will not improve academics. Spend money via bonds and schollies. The opposition did not have equal time to prepare, because the administration has been planning professionally since 2002.

Excuse me, Carl. Everyone knew this was coming. It was the opposition's choice to sit on their laurels and wait until a month prior to start "professionally designing" their campaign.

The good news is, apparently, he is taking his "School business" to another campus. Sick of this "sham".

This way, he can go and spend money elsewhere, that will likely include just the same fee. For a stadium used 5 times a year and otherwise rented out. Someone explain to me where else he can go that will be so much better?

Oh right...community college.

Meanwhile, future students will be exercising their own choice to be a part of this, and not come here if they don't want to.

posted 10/19/08 @ 8:17 PM CST

That administrators have taken such despicable advantage of students' naivete to do their (administrators') dirty work is an affront to all future students at UNT and an insult to academics campus-wide.

At no time was the opposition to the stadium given any opportunity to make a formal presentation to SGA or the frats & sororities, etc. They heard only one side of the story: administrators' flawed arguments and lies (including "your degaree will be worth more" and "the stadium is beyond repair" when no studies re: repair had been undertaken). The opposition had to present their case in bits in pieces through letters to the editor and Comments on the Daily website. That's abuse of power by administrators.

Expecting students to pay (at least) $30 million to build a $60 million facility that will be used for home games maybe 5 times per year, but will mostly be a structure that will be rented out, shows adminstrators and the board of regents have lost all concept of ethics.

And, Kev, a new overpriced football stadium isn't going to improve the "brand" of UNT any more than the Murchison improved the "brand" of UNT. The school's reputation is made by its faculty, exes, and alumni, not its buildings.

And speaking of ridiculous wastes of money - think about the $300,000 recently spent on the chancellor's office in Dallas (but which the Daily hasn't covered). That's a proportionally equal waste of money from which very few will benefit.

I'm glad I have a choice, because I'll be sending my money in the future to a school that isn't run by brass who use sham arguments to influence students to make good on their (administrators') bad promises and make up for their funding failures.

posted 10/20/08 @ 10:56 PM CST

The opposition in no way had a fair chance to present its case.

When the AD, who has a full staff at his disposal to help prepare his presentation and the purported support of all UNT administrators behind him, presents the "pro" side to SGA, how can the opposition possibly have equal footing?

Villareal and his people have had the luxury of working on their talking points since 2002, the vocal support of the president, expensive diagrams and renderings displayed at public events, a headstart selling leaders of organized students groups on the fee increase, a full spread in the alumni magazine, a bottomless budget, unlimited marketing materials, and, undoubtedly, individuals paid to ensure an answer was posted to each and every opposition posting on blogs and websites, including those here.

Thus, students were greeted with a professionally designed campaign tsunami after the fall session began.

The opposition had no prayer of having a university administrator or faculty member, comparable to the AD, as a spokesperson, because of employment-related concerns. (And no, a campus isn't, in reality, a place for free speech by faculty. They may be tenured and mostly protected from out-and-out firing, but administrators have a million ways to make their lives miserable.)

The vote was planned for less than two months after school started, so the opposition had no reasonable amount of time in which to organize, raise money or launch a serious, highly visible campaign. This timing, of course, was planned by administrators to diminish the opposition's chance at gaining serious ground.

Students, and student groups especially, have been manipulated and managed by pros in this "election."

posted 10/20/08 @ 11:20 PM CST

Originally posted by

Jason

Hey joe six pack, avenger, simon, carl, and anyone else who shares their sentiments:

You lost. Get over it. Quit your bitching.

No, UNT academic programs and students lost. What's at stake here is far bigger than just a stadium, and someday, long after today's students are gone, administrators will be forced to put on the brakes.

This arrived in my mailbox tonight. It's a well researched read on just how much UNT athletics historically is losing-and not just the football team. No university is all things, not even UT. UNT should focus on its strengths, not keep shoring up its weaknesses.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/spor...northtexas.html

posted 10/21/08 @ 12:27 PM CST

Wow, I just overheard some higher ups talking about how this election was very suspect... how they did it and what they did. Very slimy people. I think they did put one up on the students. Im sad to hear this.

Edited October 21, 2008 by greenminer

[JesseMartin]

I should have been doing it again, but leading up to the election I dismantled everything he said. The guy's an idiot. He puts "Carl Davis, alumnus" on everything...like a degree in Badminton means he knows more about funding principles and practices than anybody else.

[Green Mean]

So who is this Carl Davis person? Anybody know him?

[JesseMartin]

Not I. I even knew most of the anti-establishment people, even alums, through SGA connections. I don't think I've ever even heard of the guy until this stadium vote issue.

Though ever since his first Daily comment, for some reason I pictured him as Carl Weathers. "Damn alligator bit my hand off!"

[NT80]

"I am proud that we got 41 percent of the vote," College of Arts and Sciences Sen. Joe McNulty said. "If not for our campaigning, the vote 'yes' could have been even greater."

I think he would be proud if UNT closed the College of Arts and Sciences too, anything to make a negative statement and stick it to "the Man".

[JesseMartin]

btw, and I mentioned this on the Daily site...

Seriously, do you guys not know what a "Hot Carl" is???

[LAZER]

So who is this Carl Davis person? Anybody know him?

I bet he is the Dean in Unnecessary Roughness.....

[forevereagle]

I bet he is the Dean in Necessary Roughness.....

Fixed.

[Rudy]

OK, so I looked up our friend on Myspace and dropped him a line. I asked is he seriosuly against the new stadium and progess for UNT. Here is is reply. Try to save your laughing until you finish, although it might be impossible after reading the 3rd paragraph.

"Uh ... it already passed. What's your motive in writing me?

For the record: I am for a new stadium. I just think it can be done without charging students an extra $100 per year. (Progress my ass -- that's breaking people's backs.) $100 was the difference between me going to community college or continuing my education at UNT. I was already choosing between which two meals to skip. Thank God I graduated before tuition de-reg.

I wonder how much amazing talent our state-funded university is missing because it's not reaching the people it is designed to reach. If we make UNT too expensive the Legislature will have no reason to keep us a seperate university and will move to merge us with UT, A&M or Tech -- the fate of so many other "directional" universities. We've got to keep tuition affordable or we'll lose everything.

Now with that said, here's what I think could be done. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not a sports expert (though I used to attend the home games when I was in Denton): $30 million could be used to fund an aggressive recruitment program to match what is spent by UT, A&M and their ilk. Once we attract some quality players (we already have an amazing coach, from what I understand) we can play some serious football and score some 2001-like victories (played in a neglected Fouts Field, FYI).

Once the wins start pouring in, the fans will pour in. And with more people in the stands, ticket sales, advertising revenue ... and hell, just passing around a bucket ... we could pay for a nicer stadium that what we could currently envision.

I got involved as an agitator to help keep things above board and clean. Things were looking pretty dirty and crooked at first, and I sure didn't want a repeat of 2002. That was my only dog in this hunt. If you were around for it, 2002 was an ugly situation.

--Andy."

OK, so I think I only have enough in me for one reply. I dont have the lifeforce to combat such stupidity. Ya'll feel free to try to talk sense into him.

Edited October 22, 2008 by Rudy

[Mean Green 93-98]

I'm not trying to ridicule him, I just don't understand the reasoning--why would higher costs make us more likely to merge with one of the other systems?

[UNTFan23]

Where's this $30 million for an "aggressive recruitment program" coming from?

We'd never get a new stadium if we were to follow his plan or it be 20 years from now.

[NT80]

I just think it can be done without charging students an extra $100 per year. (Progress my ass -- that's breaking people's backs.) $100 was the difference between me going to community college or continuing my education at UNT. I was already choosing between which two meals to skip. Thank God I graduated before tuition de-reg.

Mail him a stadium donation envelope!

Edited October 22, 2008 by NT80

[Rudy]

$100 is breaking people's backs? I can guess he doesn't give a cent back to the school. Why does UNT admit these people?

Why does Mike Leach at TTU have an obsession with Pirates?

Same answer, noone knows.

[JesseMartin]

That's a weird reply. ETAMU was already part of the ATM system, etc...so why would our whole system become part of the UT system? UH and TTU are way more expensive than us, aren't they? Why haven't they become Aggies? Sometimes, Andy's ideas on finance baffle me.

[FirefightnRick]

If that response doesn't point to the level of cluelessness for you I have no idea what would. Spend $30 Million on a recruitment program? So through this recruitment program you recruit some great players(see '99 and '00 recruiting classes), and see wins start to pour in(see the 2001 thru 2004), then in case something happens that affects the quality of the players you were gettting such as poor grades, poor disciplin, a lack of effort in recruiting by said coaches or a coaching change and all of a sudden your wins start to fade and your back to square one and the $30 Million has been spent and you have zero to show for what you did with it? Wow! A 7 year old could have come up with that rediculous idea in about 10 seconds with more effort and thought. Andy Hogue doesn't give a rats ass about North Texas and it's athletic program. Never has and never will. Don't waste your time on him.

Oh, and concerning that tired, worn out arguement about how this referendum fee increase will shatter our 100 College Best Buy reputations?

North Texas students currently pay $3,233 for a full work load.

Texas Tech...$3,501,

Texas A&M..$3,772,

Texas..$4,333, TCU...$17,000

and....'gasp'....UTA..$3890.

Rick

Edited October 22, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[UNTLifer]

--Andy."

Hogue?

[JesseMartin]

Heh. So the extra $210 a year keeps us cheaper than all of the others...including "ball-less" UTA.

UNT was cheaper prior to 02 when Andy and I graduated. Less than 6K per year. That's a little more than cheap rent. Food, rent, and tuition=about 10,800 if you shop conservatively.

Coming up with 10,800 per year working p/t (f/t summers) shouldn't be too terribly difficult. And gas was under $2 a gallon for most of that period, n'est-ce pas?

Gotta disagree with Andy on the "can't afford UNT" thing.

[Rudy]

Here is my reply:

Yeah, it did pass, what is your motive for crying out what a travesty it is that it passed? an extra $7 per hour is not that big of a deal, so the students have to forgo a Latte or Big Mac, oh Dear God the HORROR! Texas State's athletic fee is already $12. By the time this fee goes into effect, their fee will be $20. They arent even D-1!

The state will not "merge" us with UT,A&M, or Tech. NT is a full, 4 year, division 1 university with 35K students, offering 252 degrees, and is the 3rd largest university in the state. We are not some little piss ant A&M Commerce, or UT Pan American.

Even if we had $30 million to put into a "recruitment Program" that money will still have to come from athletic fees, and does NOTHING to solve the problematic fact that you are pitching the WORST Division 1 stadium to recruits as their home. You want better recruits, you have to give them something to entice them, that would be the new stadium.

The reason we had those victories from 2001-2004 is because the rest of the Sunbelt Conference sucked, bad. Those programs have ALL improved and even FIU has a brand new stadium, which was funded WITHOUT a student vote. Those NT teams weren't as competitive as you think either. We won a total of 8 (EIGHT) non conference games during Dickey's entire 8 years here. The only reason we won the the 2002 New Orleans Bowl was because Cincinnati had 1 week to prepare for the bowl game, and the school had already turned its attention to basketball. It sure wasn't DD's coaching. We had some talented players, yes, but we need more talent to compete at the level we should. That level will help bring NT into the media spotlight to the masses.

Oh, and I know where we played those games from 2001-2004. I havent missed a home game since the 2001 S Florida game. I was in San Antonio, and I still caught that game at a Champs Sports Bar. I've had season tix for 3 years now, and I make it to as many road gams as possible, including sitting my but in Houston for all 4 quarters this year.

These wins you speak of will come, yes. If we do not build the stadium, look for them in another 8-10 years, if we are lucky. The Sunbelt Conf. will continue to improve. You want wins to pour in as bad as the rest of us, the new stadium will help bring them in sooner.

Oh, and all three home games so far this year have had a HUGE turnout by the students and alumni. The student side has been packed for all three games. The current students are starving for a successful program as much as the alumni, and they understand a new stadium will help bring that to reality.

[JesseMartin]

I also have to say that Andy and I, as well as quite a few others, made a great tandem both in and out of SGA. For instance, he helped me diversify my appeal and make myself a bit more "approachable", and some of us were able to provide him with statutes, policies, etc. to better direct some of his angst. Sometimes he gets crappy misinformation from people he considers knowledgeable and totally runs with it. Since this whole issue has been plagued with misinformation and he's kind of been all over the map lately, it makes sense that he might not have been able to get some more reliable sources.

Basically, Andy is much more effective when part of a well-informed team than he is when trying to cover all of the bases on his own.

Then again, aren't we all, to some degree?

It is a bit pointless for him to continue trying to debate this, though.

[ShopMeanGreen]

Why does Mike Leach at TTU have an obsession with Pirates?

Same answer, noone knows.

The ONLY reason you can add Tech to the list with UT and A&M is the progress of the Athletic Dept over the past 10 years and the Legislative muscle they were able to pull off in Austin (ie strong alumni support) to get invited to the Big 12 or as it was stated here "The Big Time". Mike Leach was making fun of A&M's Corp which is not tied to the military. He called it a made up deal so he wanted to start a made up "Pirate Academy" in response to the "Corp". If you enjoy making fun of A&M (which I do) Lubbock is a good place to live. A&M has given Tech a lot of grief over the past few year, due to the usual outcome of the football game each year. A&M insist that Tech is not a rivalry however, much like SMU is far superior to NT and not a rival.

Edited October 22, 2008 by ShopMeanGreen

[UNTFan23]

While FIU might not have used student fees to build the stadium (is that a confirmed fact?), they did use tax money.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Heh. So the extra $210 a year keeps us cheaper than all of the others...including "ball-less" UTA.

UNT was cheaper prior to 02 when Andy and I graduated. Less than 6K per year. That's a little more than cheap rent. Food, rent, and tuition=about 10,800 if you shop conservatively.

Coming up with 10,800 per year working p/t (f/t summers) shouldn't be too terribly difficult. And gas was under $2 a gallon for most of that period, n'est-ce pas?

Gotta disagree with Andy on the "can't afford UNT" thing.

.

---Prior to 2002, (which you mentioned) each university went by a statewide tuition standard... During Craddick's first session as speaker, Perry, Craddick et al. cut over $700,000,000 from the budgets of the state universities and then "LET" each university set their own tuition "to make them competitive for students" (so they claimed). That is total BS..... the truth is they cut funding --therefore universities had to come up with money somehow so allowing them to raise tuition was "their" answer. It is now more difficult for those people of limited means to attend college anywhere in this state.

---Meanwhile they brag about cutting taxes in the state.....REALLY..??... the sales tax, gasoline tax, alcohol tax and tobacco taxes, have not been cut nor has any other tax that "regular folks" pay. Not only that, ad valorem taxes (property taxes, school portion) have gone up a lot as well since that state contributes less to public school districts (per-cent-wise)..... (about 20% less) . Maybe you think you are paying less taxes to the state but if so.... name what it is......PLEASE.... I would like to know what they are..!!

---In the last session, Perry even vetoed the funds for health insurance for community college instructions ( I am one) . They had been paid by the state for years.. If you think I don't like these guys .... you are right...... and for a good reason.... and not just because I dislike the look of elephants.

--------------------

Re the ballot... sounds a bit fishy to me. ... but I support a new stadium. It sounds a lot like the questionnaires that Craddick passes out to his district (I am unfortunately in it) that are worded so nutty that only a total idiot would respond differently that he wants to report.... which he spins to be somewhat differently that the question is worded.

Made up example but not too far off: "Do you you support the Christian beliefs that the GOP endorse? ( implying that the Demos are pagan socialists ).... crazy.. Not many would honestly say no to that question.. so he states "the local people support his beliefs and oppose the the other party positions.

------Stalin: It doesn't matter how the actual vote turns out, just who counts the ballots.

Edited October 22, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66