Now That The Athletic Fee Finally Passed

Quoner · October 20, 2008

Not much of a baseball fan myself.
So can I assume this post is a dance around the fact that Men's bball and football are the two big money sports, and everything else is a distant third or worse?

Yes.

In our case, you are looking at what sports we can add that will cost the least - baseball is weekly travel plus lodging for series in most cases. We've gone over this so many freaking times, but if you question it, look up how many programs make money on baseball when you have a second.

wardly · October 20, 2008

why add another underfunded program? s.m.who dropped baseball 40 yeats ago because its a money pit.

UNT Mean Green · October 20, 2008

Yes.
In our case, you are looking at what sports we can add that will cost the least - baseball is weekly travel plus lodging for series in most cases. We've gone over this so many freaking times, but if you question it, look up how many programs make money on baseball when you have a second.

I take it you aren't considering that you play at least 40% of your games per year at home each spring. Yes, when you do travel it's normally for weekend series, but that's not weekly travel plus lodging. When you have a nice facility, you host the majority of midweek games. The revenues for baseball are significantly more than men's soccer and gymnastics.

oldguystudent · October 20, 2008

Cal State Fullerton, Long Beach State, Rice, UC Irvine to name a few.

Heh heh! When all else fails, increase the name recognition of your alma mater yourself! It's all going according to plan.

In all seriousness, when the Big West dropped football, baseball became its priority sport. You can't join the conference anymore without a baseball team. I'm not sure, but it may even have more emphasis than basketball.

ETA -- I should add that Irvine's baseball coach makes more money than UNT's football coach. You gotta' pay to play just like in any other sport.

Edited October 20, 2008 by oldguystudent

Green Dozer · October 20, 2008

Denton Outlaws. Wasn't this the design that we were going to use for the Denton Outlaws who were part of a collegiate summer league. Wasn't it a partnership between the City of Denton & UNT? The Outlaws now play in Lake Dallas. I think several businesses committed to supporting it, but it never got off the ground.

Quoner · October 20, 2008

I take it you aren't considering that you play at least 40% of your games per year at home each spring. Yes, when you do travel it's normally for weekend series, but that's not weekly travel plus lodging. When you have a nice facility, you host the majority of midweek games. The revenues for baseball are significantly more than men's soccer and gymnastics.

I take it you don't want to look up the numbers or see how many teams actually turn a profit without postseason play, which we would likely not see for the near-term after it launches.

I'm not advocating for either of the other sports you mentioned either.

The at least 40% was a bold number though - because I was under the impression we'd just pack our bags and be a traveling team and not use the hypothetical new stadium at all.

UNT Mean Green · October 20, 2008

I take it you don't want to look up the numbers or see how many teams actually turn a profit without postseason play, which we would likely not see for the near-term after it launches.
I'm not advocating for either of the other sports you mentioned either.
The at least 40% was a bold number though - because I was under the impression we'd just pack our bags and be a traveling team and not use the hypothetical new stadium at all.

I have the numbers in front of me and if you have any questions I'll be glad to answer them for you.

There have been people advocating (not yourself) men's soccer and gymnastics which all lose significant amounts of money for the NCAA over the course of a year (like track, etc.). The at least 40% was a number mandated by the NCAA for some time (don't know if it still holds true or not) in order to achieve balance in scheduling and expenses. I'm not certain if this percentage is still applied, but the point of the story is your team isn't on the road all season (unless, of course, your theory of being a traveling team holds true )

risinggreen · October 20, 2008

why add another underfunded program? s.m.who dropped baseball 40 yeats ago because its a money pit.

I think we need baseball in a big way. College baseball has become a much higher profile sport in recent years. I think we would be competitive almost immediately with the great talent in the northern DFW suburbs. smu used to play at Reverchon Park and dropped their program in 1980. I hear there is a pretty big movement to bring it back, and I hope we beat them to the punch. A lot of quality kids who want to stay in the area would prefer us to UTA, DBU, and even TCU. I hope this athletic fee helps us finally come up with the money to swing it.

UNT Mean Green · October 20, 2008

I think we need baseball in a big way. College baseball has become a much higher profile sport in recent years. I think we would be competitive almost immediately with the great talent in the northern DFW suburbs. smu used to play at Reverchon Park and dropped their program in 1980. I hear there is a pretty big movement to bring it back, and I hope we beat them to the punch. A lot of quality kids who want to stay in the area would prefer us to UTA, DBU, and even TCU. I hope this athletic fee helps us finally come up with the money to swing it.

I'm going to bet you that baseball will be able to secure private donations faster than any of the other sports/facilities in the shortest amount of time. (Don't forget this sport has been brought up before a couple of times and has an active standing committee as part of the Advisory Committee ready to move when RV says "go".)

Green Mean · October 20, 2008

I'm going to bet you that baseball will be able to secure private donations faster than any of the other sports/facilities in the shortest amount of time. (Don't forget this sport has been brought up before a couple of times and has an active standing committee as part of the Advisory Committee ready to move when RV says "go".)

I agree with you 100%. Actually Rusty Greer was on the TV broadcast for one of the Rangers home games this year and basically he has been around minor league/youth baseball quite a while now and they asked him what his future plans was and he said that he wanted to be a manager and somewhere that was local to the DFW area. I believed they mentioned it on the collegiate level as well. If we were able to get Rusty Greer to start this program, I guarantee you that we would field a damn good team very quickly and possibly be a regional/national powerhouse eventually with him leading at the helm.

BRING RUSTY GREER TO DENTON!!

UNT Mean Green · October 20, 2008

I agree with you 100%. Actually Rusty Greer was on the TV broadcast for one of the Rangers home games this year and basically he has been around minor league/youth baseball quite a while now and they asked him what his future plans was and he said that he wanted to be a manager and somewhere that was local to the DFW area. I believed they mentioned it on the collegiate level as well. If we were able to get Rusty Greer to start this program, I guarantee you that we would field a damn good team very quickly and possibly be a regional/national powerhouse eventually with him leading at the helm.
BRING RUSTY GREER TO DENTON!!

I can do that. He's contacted me several times asking about UNT baseball and we talk about once every 2 weeks.

Quoner · October 20, 2008

I agree with you 100%. Actually Rusty Greer was on the TV broadcast for one of the Rangers home games this year and basically he has been around minor league/youth baseball quite a while now and they asked him what his future plans was and he said that he wanted to be a manager and somewhere that was local to the DFW area. I believed they mentioned it on the collegiate level as well. If we were able to get Rusty Greer to start this program, I guarantee you that we would field a damn good team very quickly and possibly be a regional/national powerhouse eventually with him leading at the helm.
BRING RUSTY GREER TO DENTON!!

I would like to see how many college baseball teams make a profit - specifically, are there any that make a profit without having a large, successful athletic department propping them up? In theory, schools like Wichita State and the Cal system schools should make money as well. Do they?

Do you think the team would be supported while it struggles to win? Is Dallas about to start filling games at DBU for their post season appearance?

Is Rusty Greer a good managerial choice, or a white guy who can hustle and won the hearts of millions of Rangers fans for playing the game "the right way?" Deion Sanders asked to be our head football coach a few years ago and he was pretty successful, do you want him leading football? Was his appearance managing Team Hardline at the charity game last year a hard sell for you? If you want a player who has proven he can manage and play and then manage again, why not go with Gabe Kapler? There are a ton of good baseball people all over the place to ask, and I have grown a little sour of giving big local names big training opportunities.

I love me some baseball - but I just don't see why it should be a priority right now. The plenty of talent in the backyard comment is true, but also sadly funny when you consider how we are doing in football in the same situation.

EDIT: Forgot Rusty hired on a Texas Wesleyan over the summer. Maybe we can see how he does as a bench coach out there and then have this discussion about the sport we don't have.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Quoner

oldguystudent · October 20, 2008

Denton Outlaws. Wasn't this the design that we were going to use for the Denton Outlaws who were part of a collegiate summer league. Wasn't it a partnership between the City of Denton & UNT? The Outlaws now play in Lake Dallas. I think several businesses committed to supporting it, but it never got off the ground.

The TCL almost folded entirely at the conclusion of the 2007 season. Depending on who you asked the league was trying to screw the owners or the owners were trying to screw the league. It wasn't much related to actual community support.

From wiki:

In the face of steep financial difficulty, the owners of the teams attempted to change the league's management in 2007. In September, 2007, the Texas Collegiate League filed a lawsuit against several team owners, claiming that the owners and others "conspired to take over the league". The league announced that it would dissolve due to the lawsuit. The following month, the league re-organized under new management. With the exception of the McKinney Marshalls and Coppell Copperheads, all league teams were dissolved. With the addition of two new teams, the East Texas Pump Jacks and the Brazos Valley Bombers, the league played the 2008 season with 4 teams.

Nonetheless, the kid and I have gone to quite a few McKinney Marshalls games. The field they play in is a municipal park surrounded by youth softball fields. It seats just over 1,000. For a D1 team, that would be marginal at best.

Collegiate summer ball is fun to watch though. I hope the league gets its act together again. The players went from top D1 programs to mostly D2 and D3 this past summer. It was sad.

Green Mean · October 20, 2008

I would like to see how many college baseball teams make a profit - specifically, are there any that make a profit without having a large, successful athletic department propping them up? In theory, schools like Wichita State and the Cal system schools should make money as well. Do they?
Do you think the team would be supported while it struggles to win? Is Dallas about to start filling games at DBU for their post season appearance?
Is Rusty Greer a good managerial choice, or a white guy who can hustle and won the hearts of millions of Rangers fans for playing the game "the right way?" Deion Sanders asked to be our head football coach a few years ago and he was pretty successful, do you want him leading football? Was his appearance managing Team Hardline at the charity game last year a hard sell for you? If you want a player who has proven he can manage and play and then manage again, why not go with Gabe Kapler? There are a ton of good baseball people all over the place to ask, and I have grown a little sour of giving big local names big training opportunities.
I love me some baseball - but I just don't see why it should be a priority right now. The plenty of talent in the backyard comment is true, but also sadly funny when you consider how we are doing in football in the same situation.
EDIT: Forgot Rusty hired on a Texas Wesleyan over the summer. Maybe we can see how he does as a bench coach out there and then have this discussion about the sport we don't have.

Honestly I couldnt tell you about the money of collegiate baseball. I think olguystudent would be best to answer that question but I think a pretty successul baseball program would make pretty decent money in Denton. The Rangers and the minor league teams are pretty far so I doubt these people would frequently go to those games. I am not sure but I do not think the cost to run baseball would be very high since there are several teams that we can play just in our state or region to where travel would not be much unless if we are playing conference teams that are far. I only bring up Rusty Greer because he has actually been around coaching youth teams and minor league like teams. I just think for a start he would be the perfect guy to start the UNT program and remember that he is still fresh in a lot of young peoples minds and I truly think it would be a boost. I am not sure if it is a priority at this point but I think it needs to be at the near front of the list after the stadium in my opinion.

Rudy · October 20, 2008

I pitched hockey to RV several years ago when I had the connections to get RV a facility for $6 million, $5 million coming from outside sources, thus NT only paying $1 million. This could serve as a multiuse facility. Understandibly RV says there are other priorities.

However, I think NCAA hockey is on the horizon for this area. Look how huge HS hockey has grown in less than 10 years. Last year, one of the candidates for NCAA Hockey's version of the Heisman came from DFW, who was playing goal for North Dakota St I believe.

As much as I love hockey, it isnt the top priority right now, but it will come here.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Rudy

Green Mean · October 20, 2008

I pitched hockey to RV several years ago when I had the connections to get RV a facility for $6 million, $5 million coming from outside sources, thus NT only paying $1 million. This could serve as a multiuse facility. Understandibly RV says there are other priorities.
However, I think NCAA hockey is on the horizon for this area. Look how huge HS hockey has grown in less than $10 years. Last year, one of the candidates for NCAA Hockey's version of the Heisman came from DFW, who was playing goal for North Dakota St I believe.
As much as I love hockey, it isnt the top priority right now, but it will come here.

I would go nuts if UNT got mens college ice hockey. That would be awesome!

oldguystudent · October 20, 2008

I think olguystudent would be best to answer that question but I think a pretty successul baseball program would make pretty decent money in Denton.

I'm off to the Big West boards to inquire. I don't really know off hand.

Rudy · October 20, 2008

NT will, as will many other schools in this region of the country. There is already a region (and nation) wide club hockey league. It was getting up about the same time I was laying the groundwork for our club teams.

For those who dont think hockey would be a revenue generating sport, flip through your cable or satellite provider sometime and watch a game. Great atmosphere, sold out arenas, cheerleaders, and some really good action.

oldguystudent · October 21, 2008

Here's some good information on college baseball money dug up by the Portland newspaper in regards to Oregon's revival of baseball. It doesn't look like anybody makes money in baseball, but it also looks like it can be very nearly self sustaining.

link

oldguystudent · October 21, 2008

One of the acknowledged forces to be reckoned with when it comes to knowledge about college baseball is Boyd Nation. He's a Mississippi State alum who runs www.boydsworld.com

He has his own system of rating teams, and has a formula that nails RPI more accurately than anybody. I emailed him about revenues in college baseball, and this is what he had to say.

Well, on the one hand, I don't know for sure, but, on the other hand,
neither does anyone else. It's not really in the best interest of the
athletic program at most schools to declare that they have a surplus that
they can turn back in to the general athletic budget, so expenses tend to
expand to cover all revenue (accounting is such a fun thing). Further
complicating things is stuff like payments from equipment manufacturers,
which sometimes go into the baseball budget and sometimes go straight to
the head coach, who may or may not reduce his salary demands accordingly.
My best guess would be that there are probably two to five programs that
actually turn a profit (or generate revenue for other sports, or whatever
you want to call it). Since so much of the available revenue comes from
attendance, looking at the top 5 in attendance is a good place to start
there. Teams with luxury boxes or other oddball revenue streams like
the Left Field Lounge parking permits have an added edge here, which is
why I would guess that Mississippi State and LSU are on the short list
here. My second best guess is that there are probably 15-20 programs
out there that are self-supporting, but that's purely conjectural.

Edited October 21, 2008 by oldguystudent

wardly · October 21, 2008

its great to have a new football stadium, but the truth is that the entire athletic program is significantly underfunded, and does not make a profit. there are almost no discretionary funds, and untill the athletic department gets on solid financial ground, it has no business adding another non revenue producing sport. its just not sound business.

UNTLifer · October 21, 2008

its great to have a new football stadium, but the truth is that the entire athletic program is significantly underfunded, and does not make a profit. there are almost no discretionary funds, and untill the athletic department gets on solid financial ground, it has no business adding another non revenue producing sport. its just not sound business.

Ahh, the voice of reason.

Of course, the voice of reason has no place on this board.

UNT Mean Green · October 21, 2008

I would like to see how many college baseball teams make a profit - specifically, are there any that make a profit without having a large, successful athletic department propping them up? In theory, schools like Wichita State and the Cal system schools should make money as well. Do they?
Do you think the team would be supported while it struggles to win? Is Dallas about to start filling games at DBU for their post season appearance?
Is Rusty Greer a good managerial choice, or a white guy who can hustle and won the hearts of millions of Rangers fans for playing the game "the right way?" Deion Sanders asked to be our head football coach a few years ago and he was pretty successful, do you want him leading football? Was his appearance managing Team Hardline at the charity game last year a hard sell for you? If you want a player who has proven he can manage and play and then manage again, why not go with Gabe Kapler? There are a ton of good baseball people all over the place to ask, and I have grown a little sour of giving big local names big training opportunities.
I love me some baseball - but I just don't see why it should be a priority right now. The plenty of talent in the backyard comment is true, but also sadly funny when you consider how we are doing in football in the same situation.
EDIT: Forgot Rusty hired on a Texas Wesleyan over the summer. Maybe we can see how he does as a bench coach out there and then have this discussion about the sport we don't have.

Believe it or not there have been several people who are highly regarded in the baseball industry be it college or pro ball who have inquired about the UNT job (and lots of them for that matter).

There is plenty of talent in the backyard (as there is in football) but in comparing baseball to football you are comparing apples to oranges. It's a totally different dynamic than football. There is no BCS. And schools in a non-major conference have a legitimate change (similar to basketball) to play for a championship.

Here's a list of mid majors to make it to Omaha since 1998:

1998-Long Beach State

1999-Rice & Cal State Fullerton

2000-Louisiana Lafayette & San Jose State

2001-Cal State Fullerton

2002-Rice

2003-Rice & Cal State Fullerton & Missouri State

2004-Cal State Fullerton

2005-Tulane

2006-Cal State Fullerton & Rice

2007-Rice & UC Irvine & Cal State Fullerton

2008-Fresno State

Those are just the teams in Omaha, not in Super Regionals and Regionals. I don't think if you go back to the start of the BCS that you'll have that solid of representation from non-BCS conferences. More parity and a better opportunity to play for a championship in baseball than in football.

oldguystudent · October 21, 2008

Baseball is indeed an entirely different dynamic. Unlike basketball, being in a BCS football conference isn't necessarily an indicator of baseball success. The Big 10 in particular pretty much sucks at baseball. Other conferences, like the Big West, focus almost entirely on baseball and have success year after year. We're a 1 bid second rate basketball conference, but we sent 4 teams to the tourney last year in baseball. You've also got your Rice, Wichita State, Tulane, Fresno State, San Diego, Oral Roberts, Pepperdine, Dallas Baptist and others that are perpetual post season players from otherwise crappy conferences.

Bottom line, the more I research it, the more the reality hits that baseball is not a money maker. Not even LSU makes money (depending how you read the accounting). The top baseball coaches make quiet a bit of money (Mike Gillespie at UC Irvine is making $250,000 plus endorsements and incentives). I can only guess what someone of the caliber of an Augie Guerrido makes (living legend status). Best case scenario for a program like UNT is that it would cost a couple million a year to run the program after stadium construction expenses.

Baseball has been great for Irvine, Long Beach and Fullerton because we've got nothing else to get our name out there to the general public. But if we could field a successful football or basketball team, the rewards for that would be incomparable to the exposure we get from baseball.

As an extreme example, Irvine has multiple national championships in men's water polo, sailing, and men's volleyball. We had Greg Louganis in diving and Mike Powell in track. Anybody ever hear about those? Nope? Didn't think so. Only the die hards like me noticed Coach Sprewell on the floor at the Beijing Olympics for volleyball.

I would love to have a baseball team here. I would be at every game I could physically get myself to. I would know the players and coaches personally. I would travel to the post season sites (as I've done for Irvine). But I have to concede that it wouldn't do much overall for recognition or income for our athletic program overall.

Quoner · October 21, 2008

Believe it or not there have been several people who are highly regarded in the baseball industry be it college or pro ball who have inquired about the UNT job (and lots of them for that matter).
There is plenty of talent in the backyard (as there is in football) but in comparing baseball to football you are comparing apples to oranges. It's a totally different dynamic than football. There is no BCS. And schools in a non-major conference have a legitimate change (similar to basketball) to play for a championship.
Here's a list of mid majors to make it to Omaha since 1998:
1998-Long Beach State
1999-Rice & Cal State Fullerton
2000-Louisiana Lafayette & San Jose State
2001-Cal State Fullerton
2002-Rice
2003-Rice & Cal State Fullerton & Missouri State
2004-Cal State Fullerton
2005-Tulane
2006-Cal State Fullerton & Rice
2007-Rice & UC Irvine & Cal State Fullerton
2008-Fresno State
Those are just the teams in Omaha, not in Super Regionals and Regionals. I don't think if you go back to the start of the BCS that you'll have that solid of representation from non-BCS conferences. More parity and a better opportunity to play for a championship in baseball than in football.

So who on that list started baseball five years ago and had success? How long did it take them to get to where they are now?

If you are arguing that we can win quickly because of talent, that is your stretch, but there really is no debate about the money behind it. If we had no other issues and extra money to spare, I would be leading the baseball parade, but it doesn't make sense. I am not even talking about winning a title, I am talking about postseason play of any type. The only example I can think of is DBU and, without looking it up, I think it is safe to say that they are not making money or setting attendance records.