Attendance vs. Postseason Reward

CaliforniaCajun · January 2, 2003

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/messag...8&ld=&msg=416.1

I have started a discussion on the Sun Belt Conference Delphi Forum about this topic regarding basketball. Today is the first day of conference play. I analyzed the various conference attendance averages, and it looks pretty clear cut to me that fan support goes a long way in determining if a good mid-major team that didn't win the conference tournament has anywhere to go during the post season. It also looks to me that we could help ourselves a lot by collectively challenging other mid-major conferences to home and home games in the future to improve our RPI ratings. Come in and join the discussion, and maybe we can forward some thought-provoking suggestions to the powers that be.

Sun Belt Conference Delphi Forum

Duck_Mav · January 8, 2003

I agree:

Quality wins plus decent attendance numbers equals credibility. In basketball, UNT and UTA have a common problem being from bottom-feeding conferences, or if you will, "mid-majors." The Slothland is to basketball what the Slumbelt is to football - better than anybody will admit but getting NO RESPECT.

It's too bad UNT is afraid to play UTA in basketball. Both schools would benefit from the large crowds and neither has much to lose reputation-wise. UTA is currently 5-5 overall and 2-0 in conference - pretty much on a par with how the MG are doing. Maybe next year or the year after we can get together at your place, or at our place if you're not afraid of falling off the stage!

While I'm on the subject of things the two schools have in common, it seems like you are going through the same thing with Fouts Field that we are going through with Texas Hall. Without a doubt, both schools could use serious facilities upgrades - you at the football stadium and us at the basketball arena. Big wishes but no deep pockets - yet.

Finally, congratulations on a great football season. Both the athletes and the fans deserve a lot of credit for keeping the faith and performing like true champions! Winning conference and the bowl were great things, but filling the seats at Fouts was HUGE!

Many of us in the Southland expect to see some former SLC members (like La Monroe and Arkansas State) return from the Sun Belt to 1AA within the next couple of years, but so far, I don't hear anybody saying that North Texas will be one of them. Cheers!

ScreamingEaglesFan · January 8, 2003

Wow now thats a first, flamed by a movin' maverick!!

CMJ · January 8, 2003

He both dissed us and praised us in the same post. I don't know whether to be irriated or happy.

UNTLifer · January 8, 2003

You know, if we expect TCU and SMU to play us in football, it is only right that UTA expects us to play them in Bball. I don't have a problem with this as it would help attendance for sure.

I don't know if I agree with his assessment that ASU will return to the Southland though. ULM may be another story.

Duck_Mav · January 9, 2003

Thanks, UNTLifer, for seeing some merit in my comments. I admit, my crack that UNT was afraid to play UTA came across as a cheap shot, and I'll take it back forever when the two schools start playing again.

It's not like we are Kentucky and Louisville, is it? Maybe the Metroplex would be better served if we had a "Big Five" holiday tournament the way they do in Philadelphia with La Salle, Penn, St. Joseph's, Temple, Villanova and Drexel. (Yes, I know that's six. What can you say: It's Philly.) See http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/co...ity/4103093.htm

We could have TCU, SMU, UNT, UTA, and let Baylor be the fifth. It would be a great holiday tournament and fill up some seats that would otherwise go empty while the students are away on vacation at that time of the year.

As for Arkansas State, I was looking a few months ago at attendance and the other factors the NCAA Nazis are trying to impose on the non-BCS 1-A "bottom feeders" and I didn't see anybody in the Sun Belt that was a slam dunk to meet the minimum requirements.

Of the current Sun Belt teams, I think we both agree that LaMo is probably in the most trouble and North Texas is barely getting it done. The others fall somewhere in between and will have to make dramatic improvements the next couple of years to stay at the current level.

No doubt about it, the squeeze is on for schools in the middle, which would include Sun Belt members as well as others like SMU, UH and UTEP.

What I really don't like is that some of the 1-AA commissioners and presidents are working with the BCS members to raise the 1-A requirements to keep any more of the 1-AA "Big Fish" from escaping to the higher classification. I guess after Marshall, UCF and Troy State moved up, they are afraid of losing McNeese, Montana and Georgia Southern.

A free market approach would make a lot more sense. There should just be one "Division One" and let the market regulate who plays whom.

Final question: How many teams can the Sun Belt lose without folding?

UNTLifer · January 9, 2003

Final question: How many teams can the Sun Belt lose without folding?

I'm not too worried about folding. In fact, rumor has it that we will be adding a couple more teams in the very near future.

FirefightnRick · January 9, 2003

I agree, we should play UT Almost. We had a lot of fun taking over the SUPER PIT on the Stage during the late 80's, but a regional tournement just makes good sense and I would imagine JJ would agree to it. Remember though that when NT was in the SLC, we went to the big dance so we had our days in the sun in the SLC. But it will be even tougher to do that now in the Belt as it's had several teams represent in the big dance in the past including Western Kentucky making it to the sweet 16 at least twice. The SunBelt is no bottom feeder basketball or baseball league by no means.

Rick

Duck_Mav · January 10, 2003

UT "Almost"? That hurts! Especially coming from a "Not" Texas fan. Yes, I'm familiar with Western Kentucky. They had a great 1AA football team this year. Upset Ga Southern in the semis and then pounded McNeese in the finals. Are they hoping to move up? During the National Championship game, one of the TV commentators mentioned that WKU almost dropped football 10 years ago, but that the Coach was able to talk one of the Regents into changing his vote. So by one vote, they kept their team. Happy for them!

I had forgotten, or never knew that NT was so successful in SLC basketball. I was out of the country, living in New Jersey during the whole era. I guess after the Missouri Valley, competition in the Southland seemed pretty lame.

Yes, a tournament would be grand and might put some butts in all those empty blue and green seats. The first round games could be at Moody and Daniel Meyer. Do you think Baylor, SMU and TCU would be interested? If we had 6 teams, a first rounder could be at the Pit. I nominate the Boll Weevils of Arkansas-Monticello as the 6th team, or perhaps Texas Wesleyan.

By the way, our men's and women's teams won tonight at Southeastern Louisiana, and both teams are now 3-0 in conference. Only SFA and Sam Houston look strong in the SLC this year, but maybe our guys will turn out to be pretty good too.

UNTX · January 10, 2003

I would be MUCH happier occassionly playing any of our former Texas SLC rivals (UTA, SWT, SFA, UTSA and SHSU) in non-conference play on a home and home basis in basketball. Especially over Div. II teams like St. Edwards and TAMU-Commerce/Kingsville. Playing schools like those does nothing for us except guarantee (sometimes barely) a meaningless win in front of almost no one at the Superpit. It would also be better than just playing 3 or 4 non-conference games at home while all the rest are on the road.

Hopefully something can be worked out in the future.

Sidenote: I went to see NT play UTA on "the stage" a couple of times when I was a student. JUST LAST WEEK I was telling two UTA grads at work that the Mavs play in a theatre on stage. They said I was lying! I told them it's a fact and that the team plays in Texas Hall. They knew Texas Hall because that's where they walked when they graduated. But sadly, they had no idea that the basketball team played there. I bet them money on it, they declined but still said I was wrong. A quick visit to the UTA web-site proved that I was telling the truth. And sadly, they seemed a bit embarrased by it.

But hey, UNT certainly has it's share of unknowledgeable and apathetic students/alums as well - so don't take it as a shot.

Good luck to the Mavs this year.

LoveMG · January 10, 2003

Was it Craig Helwig that said we'd never play another game on that stage? UTA does badly need a gym. Still, I'd rather play them than some of these Div.II schools we play.

Duck_Mav · January 10, 2003

Yes, it makes sense for Division I teams to play each other wherever and whenever. We keep playing teams like Arkansas-Monticello and Texas Wesleyan because it's hard to get bigger names to visit our house.

"The Hall" or "Texas Hell" is our own athletic albatross, if ever there was one. Those don't-give-a-care students/alums with whom we are both afflicted have made it very difficult to sell the idea of having a first class arena built. The Hall is small, yet we rarely have filled it, except for those few years when we had decent teams.

Even so, there seems to be a small window of opportunity opening. Thanks to new dorm and apartment construction, we now have about 5,000 "traditional" students living on campus (a higher percentage than live on campus at UT"B") and the attendance at games has gone up.

This year, we seem to have two of those good teams. The men and women have started out conference with wins against UTSA, McNeese and SLU to go 3-0, and are both on the road at Nicholls State tomorrow. We should have a pretty good crowd for the next three games at home against Sam Houston, Lamar and Southwest Texas.

School starts next week and if we can somehow start filling the 4,000 seats at Texas Hall, I think there will be a serious push for a new Arena.

And you already know about the other thing for which Arlington needs a serious push.

Good luck to the Mean Green too! I hope we get to play sometime in the "afterseason."

IronMan4 · January 10, 2003

Our women beat the UTA women 85-58 last year.

There were two UTA fans. I was there and counted. I know it's women's and a completely different ballpark as far as attendance, but not exactly a bonanza for the ticket office no matter what the sport.

UNT96 · January 11, 2003

UL just got done playing in a tourney where there were 4 teams and instead of playing a consolation and championship game, all 4 teams played each other. Colorado St won the tourney 3-0 BARELY, but it would be great for a metroplex version of that to take place. Three games in three days. Whoever has the best record in the tourney gets the trophy. That way if you lose the first game you are not knocked out of it, you just need some other teams to lose. A 2-1 reecord tie is obviously decided by the head to head outcome.

I would see no reason for UNT, TCU, UNT, and UTA to go for that and to have it either at a neutral site or have it rotate venues with the exception of playing at The Stage. It is just not a basketball venue in any way. You would not be able to tell who was cheering for who, there is no visitor/home team side. Maybe there is a high school in the area that could host it for UTA every 4th year. I would think that a local station like Ch 27 would pick it up easily and it could really be a great (and CHEAP) recruiting tool. Basically there are three days of basketball with a double header every day. It would go something like this:

Day One:

NT vs TCU

UTA vs SMU

Day two:

NT vs UTA

TCU vs SMU

Day three:

NT vs SMU

TCU vs UTA

Rotate venues every year so there is no "home court advantage". TV would be great but most of us have both the student station play the games as well as a commercial station. If nothing else you would be able to get the games on 8 radio stations in the metroplex. Could really be something special and would draw well. A home and home with the UTA Rebels would probably be out of the question. We would want to get guaranteed games with TCU and SMU as a result. Money would be simple, each of the 3 "traveling" schools would no likely want to stay in a hotel in either Ft Worth, Arlington, Dallas, or Denton. They would just stay Fri and Sat as Sunday they could bus home. Make it so that the visiting teams get an allotment for "traveling" and lodging/food expenses (not a lot for a basketball team) and let the host venue keep the rest of walk up sales. Teams would sell their own seats and pay half to the tourney and get to keep the rest. That way if UTA only sold 100 tickets than they would only make that much money which would normally be the sticking point in scheduling a game with the Rebels. It is all about money and respect. Money should be covered easily with these teams. The respect thing would be easy to win over because all 4 teams would think that they have a chance to win in this format. 4 different conferences represented as well. Great idea Mav Man, I just "tweaked" it little.

By the way, you should change back to the Rebels for your mascot. The Mavericks just sounds goofy since the local pro team are really the real Mavs.

Good luck this season, watch out for those NE Louisiana Injuns!

CMJ · January 11, 2003

That sounds like agreat format 96! You should promote that to those in power.

UNTFan23 · January 11, 2003

That sounds like agreat format 96! You should promote that to those in power.

It's not the powers that be at UNT that need the convincing, it's 2 of the 4 schools in the DFW area that you'd have to convince...

CMJ · January 11, 2003

So we lean on our guys to make the phone calls. It can happen. I mean none of these schools are basketball powerhouses...ever. We've all had some great seasons here and there, but seriously, it's not like SMU or TCU are steeped in tradition in basketball(like they are in football, even if that was ages ago).

Hell UTEP has more basketball tradition than any school in Texas.

Duck_Mav · January 11, 2003

Great comments, 96! I only have a few additions/corrections/quibbles, but overall, I can see a great amount of thought went into your vision, and the word picture you paint reminds me a lot of the "Big 5" Tournament I attended a couple of times when I was living in exile near Philadelphia.

First quibble: Our Women's basketball team last year was coming off a 3 win season and had a very sparse following. They ended up something like 15-13 and, by the end of the season were starting to draw better. This year, they were picked by the SIDs and Coaches as #2 of the 11 teams in our conference, second only to SFA, and so far, are living up to those expectations. Therefore, I see the potential of not only a good draw, but an excellent matchup on the court when our women's teams play again. Either place.

Second: Texas Hall is funky, true, but it is an excellent place to watch basketball, and was chosen by Sports Illustrated in 1997 as "the best place in the USA to watch basketball." Strange but true. Go to the Vanderbilt site and you will notice that they also play on a stage in a (much expanded) theater.

Shows the place may have potential. Even so, I'm hoping someday the Arlington "powers-that-be" ignore that example and demolish, rather than expand The Hall. The critical point about Texas Hall is not the building, but the lack of crowds. Fortunately, that seems to be changing.

Third: We had home-and-home schedules with Oral Roberts and New Mexico State last year, and they both drew very well. Usually, if the visiting team brings many fans, they sit on the south third or half of the bleacher (west) stands, plus out in the blue seats. NMSU amd ORU did a pretty good job of filling the balcony, which in my opinion is the best place to sit. The other surprise visiting crowd is always the Texas Wesleyan bunch from Fort Worth. Too bad that finances have forced TWU to drop down. (Probably for the same reason, UNT will be buying a law school in downtown Fort Worth pretty soon.) But they have great fans.

Fourth: The same kind of pointy-headed education-bureaucrat that killed football at UTA pulled the plug on the Rebel theme. It was over 30 years ago, but the bitterness remains. Sort of like if Norval Pohl made North Texas change colors to Orange and White. I'm ok now with the name "Mavericks" and have even gotten used to that NBA team, though they came about ten years after we started using the name. It's a good thing that the Dallas Mavericks are winning - they were so bad for so long, it used to be too embarassing.

I checked your schedule and was surprised to see that you already play SMU, BU and TCU. Do you have home-and-home schedules with any of them, or is it just a "once in a while" schedule? It seems both UNT and UTA have an easy time scheduling away games with big name schools, but it's hard to get them to come to our places.

Finally: How many does the Superpit seat, and how many do you typically draw for men's and women's games? I don't think SMU has filled Moody Coliseum much since the days of Doc Hays, and even Billy Tubbs wasn't able to fill Daniel Meyer. Our last sellout was in 1991. Seems like all four venues have plenty of room for the crowds their teams have drawn lately.

CMJ · January 11, 2003

We haven't sold out the Colesium in years. I'd say the typical crowd is 2,500 or so(it can seat almost 10K). Of course, I haven't been to a game in awhile since I now live out of state, so people that have more recent experiences correct me if I'm wrong.

NT80 · January 11, 2003

I checked your schedule and was surprised to see that you already play SMU, BU and TCU. Do you have home-and-home schedules with any of them, or is it just a "once in a while" schedule? It seems both UNT and UTA have an easy time scheduling away games with big name schools, but it's hard to get them to come to our places.

The SuperPit holds 10,000. The women this year hosted LSU and Indiana. UNT's men hosted TCU this season and will host Indiana in Denton next year (yes, those Indiana Hoosiers).

GreenFlag · January 11, 2003

What a difference a year makes! I have been a proponent of playing UTA in BB for some time only to get blasted for it in the past. UTA could always be counted on for one of the better-attended games every season. The nay sayers in the past reminded me a lot of the froggies who gave every excuse in the book why their highest attended and most competitive home game this year was not necessarily a good thing. Of course the opponent was UNT. The frogs were bitching about the opponent but they were there at Amon Carter en masse and so were we in good numbers. That loss was the most painful one of the season for me. I see frogs hopping around everywhere; I don't know a single Arizona Wildcat or South Florida Bull. Now Mavericks, there is a virtual stampede of them here in Arlington. My next-door neighbor is a UTA grad. My "we have spirit, yes we do, we have FOOTBALL how bout you?" cheer has been dormant for too long.

Face it; we are all local rivals with a lot on the line when we play. I would like to see us schedule a home and home every season with UTA. It would take me all of 5 minutes to get to the game. Not only would it be convenient for me, but for the other 100K UNT alums in the Metroplex.

BTW, the round robin tourney thing was tried in the past with UNT, SMU and TCU. Either the Dallas Morning News or The Dallas Times Herald sponsored it in '84 or '85 maybe? I have no idea how well it worked or why it did not take off.

I'm still looking forward to the day when the majority of non-BCS athletic directors and presidents take their collective heads out of their asses so we can start playing regional opponents that spark interest and increase attendance.

Duck_Mav · January 12, 2003

You're durn right, Bald Eagle. Great post!

We could get some interest stirred up with home-and-home games among all 4 metroplex teams, but expecially between the Mavericks and the Mean Green. Then, I could revive my old cheer: "we have spirit, yes we do, we have MEN'S TENNIS AND BASEBALL how bout you?" (Hmmm. Doesn't seem to have the same bite to it as your cheer, does it?)

Also, to add a little twist to our previous discussion, my neighbor Rusty says a tournament in Reunion Arena featuring all four Metroplex men's and women's programs would make for a great holiday event.

I agree about where the majority of non-BCS athletic directors' and presidents' heads seem to be located. It's almost like they don't want to succeed!?!

UNTFan23 · January 12, 2003

Then, I could revive my old cheer: "we have spirit, yes we do, we have MEN'S TENNIS AND BASEBALL how bout you?" (Hmmm. Doesn't seem to have the same bite to it as your cheer, does it?)

Not to stoke the fire, but I've heard of a similar cheer that Mean Green fans use for UTA...

"We have football, yes we do, we have football, how 'bout you?"

Duck_Mav · January 13, 2003

Quote: "We have football, yes we do, we have football, how 'bout you?"

'23 - You must have missed Greeneagle's post above, where he dusted off that ancient canard the first time. I was merely giving him the (weak) Arlington reply about tennis and baseball. (You used to have a pretty good Men's Tennis program.)

Surely, you realize that most UTA fans (both of us) would trade all of our "olympic" sports for a football program. We would even be willing to have that pathetic "Ragin' Cajuns" team, rather than just watch the high school kids gradually wear out our astroturf at Maverick Stadium.

Back to basketball. How was the crowd at the Denver games?

This Thursday, we should draw around 1,200 for Sam Houston. I'll let you know how it turns out.

CaliforniaCajun · January 14, 2003

You don't respect the Louisiana Ragin' Cajun football program? Where's yours??? One of the 15 largest attended games in Cajun Field history was against UTA. There were some pretty exciting games during those days.

In the 70s UTA was pushing all the SLC teams to go Division I in football and as it turned out you were the first one in the league to punt and drop the sport! One year after building a new stadium. You guys used to play at the old Arlington Stadium.

Any designs of getting football back? You're a quart short without Texas' No. 1 sport.

Your earlier posts about quality basketball in the Metroplex is certainly the way to go. The mid majors have to quit playing non-Division I teams in order to get better through competition, attract more fans, and increase the RPI ratings.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/SBCsports/start