Talk Me Out Of It. Please.

[CaribbeanGreen]

I need convincing.

Let me preface by saying how much i love this school and this team; I graduated in 2002 after 3 1/2 years covering the team with NTTV. Worked in South Florida for several years, and now I'm back finishing a second bachelor's and starting my graduate work, all at NT. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I've been on record as having a dissenting opinion regarding Darrell Dickey and the early 2000's teams, and I admit I may have some bias there.... yet I've been caught up in the Dodgeball wave, trying to give it the benefit of the doubt, trying to keep a positive attitude. When people here and elsewhere say "Dodge is gonna turn this around!" and talk about how young we are or any other excuse du jour, I generally try to buy into it, logic be damned. Tonight, though, I have to come clean as to my concerns. I need to be convinced again. I need to believe this can be fixed by this staff. Disclaimer: I'm never going to stop going to games and turn on this team. Ever. I'm just frustrated and need convincing.

So.. that being said...

What makes Todd Dodge qualified to BE here, much less fix this mess?

There's trepidation enough tied to hiring a high school coach to lead a D1 program. The road is littered with failures, it never works, etc. etc. Forgetting the Gerry Faust was completely dominant at the HS level, I went along with the theory that Dodge was so good at SLC, he must be able to transfer that to the Sun Belt level for sure, common sense and history be damned.

I've been to many SLC games over the years. Let me tell you something... my grandmother could coach SLC to 8 wins a year, and she's dead. It's a built in program, from grade school up. All the teams are the Dragons. They all run the same system. All little kids want to do is be a Dragon or cheer for the Dragons... and it's ridiculously affluent, with every advantage other school's don't have. It's Highland Park with a more rabid fan base.

SLC is 244-39 in the last 20 years. They've won 7 state titles, and appeared 8 times. They had a 72-game winning streak that spanned 7 years from 1986-1993. The coach between Ledbetter and Dodge was let go after completing the transition from 3A up to the top level, taking his bumps along the way getting up to 5A -- and he was still 12 games over .500. 12!!! Wasson lost a couple last year (one to the #1 team in the nation), but is undefeated again this year. I'm not doubting that what Dodge did at SLC was impressive -- it surely was. But CARROLL WINS. ALWAYS HAVE, ALWAYS WILL until the climate changes. No one loses at Southlake Carroll.

Again, we're comparing this to DIVISION ONE football.

Before coming to Southlake Carroll, Todd Dodge coached at Cameron Yoe, Newman Smith, and Fossil Ridge for 5 seasons. Over those 5 seasons, he was a combined 11 GAMES UNDER .500. Suddenly, he arrived at Southlake Carroll, with all the tradition, history, resources, and athletes that come with it, and he's a great coach. Just like that. His spread was ahead of its time at the high school level, where sophisticated pass defenses didn't exist, and it was the perfect situation.

Again, he was 11 games under 500 over 5 years... in high school. Somehow, the same offense and same philosophy that didn't work at Yoe, NS, or FR clicked at Carroll.

SO.... these are my concerns. An offense that will surprise no one at this level, the inability to outathlete or overwhelm people with smarts and ability like at Carroll, and thus far, an abject FAILURE in each and every aspect of job performance, except crowd levels -- which, by the way, grew exponentially once tailgating was allowed and the game day experienced changed -- which I feel makes a bigger difference than Dodge did. If we had the same game day scene when we were winning 26 straight conference games, which most schools never DREAM of doing -- well, I believe we'd have had even bigger crowds. Thanks to Craig MF'n Helwig.

We've had players leave the program. We've had controversies on the news, epic blowouts, bad PR moves, inept defense, inept special teams, poorly handled demotions, and we're outcoached EVERY WEEK. It's an abortion of the highest order. Why do you have faith in THIS coach to fix it? Everything we've seen is the sign of someone completely over their head on every level. What can he do?

Again, nothing would make me happier than to see him succeed. I'm just reaching, here. I don't get it. I need convincing.

Edited October 5, 2008 by CaribbeanGreen

[PerryG2480]

Like I've said before, college football is very cyclical at this level. We will be good again. I just can't convince you (or myself) that it will be under the current coaching regime.

[KingDL1]

As young of a team as Dodge is putting on the field, I think next year we will see a marked improvement or Dodge will be gone. He seems to have stripped back the team to mostly his guys but they very young, so now we will watch as he builds his team from the ground up. Plus Delaoch will be involved in the defensive recruiting for next year, and he will have more time to get the defense molded. I have dropped all expectations this year, I just hope we can win a couple.

I am drinking more.

[axis]

Dickey was fired for less than this current mess.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

I need convincing.

Let me preface by saying how much i love this school and this team; I graduated in 2002 after 3 1/2 years covering the team with NTTV. Worked in South Florida for several years, and now I'm back finishing a second bachelor's and starting my graduate work, all at NT. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I've been on record as having a dissenting opinion regarding Darrell Dickey and the early 2000's teams, and I admit I may have some bias there.... yet I've been caught up in the Dodgeball wave, trying to give it the benefit of the doubt, trying to keep a positive attitude. When people here and elsewhere say "Dodge is gonna turn this around!" and talk about how young we are or any other excuse du jour, I generally try to buy into it, logic be damned. Tonight, though, I have to come clean as to my concerns. I need to be convinced again. I need to believe this can be fixed by this staff. Disclaimer: I'm never going to stop going to games and turn on this team. Ever. I'm just frustrated and need convincing.

So.. that being said...

What makes Todd Dodge qualified to BE here, much less fix this mess?

There's trepidation enough tied to hiring a high school coach to lead a D1 program. The road is littered with failures, it never works, etc. etc. Forgetting the Gerry Faust was completely dominant at the HS level, I went along with the theory that Dodge was so good at SLC, he must be able to transfer that to the Sun Belt level for sure, common sense and history be damned.

I've been to many SLC games over the years. Let me tell you something... my grandmother could coach SLC to 8 wins a year, and she's dead. It's a built in program, from grade school up. All the teams are the Dragons. They all run the same system. All little kids want to do is be a Dragon or cheer for the Dragons... and it's ridiculously affluent, with every advantage other school's don't have. It's Highland Park with a more rabid fan base.

SLC is 244-39 in the last 20 years. They've won 7 state titles, and appeared 8 times. They had a 72-game winning streak that spanned 7 years from 1986-1993. The coach between Ledbetter and Dodge was let go after completing the transition from 3A up to the top level, taking his bumps along the way getting up to 5A -- and he was still 12 games over .500. 12!!! Wasson lost a couple last year (one to the #1 team in the nation), but is undefeated again this year. I'm not doubting that what Dodge did at SLC was impressive -- it surely was. But CARROLL WINS. ALWAYS HAVE, ALWAYS WILL until the climate changes. No one loses at Southlake Carroll.

Again, we're comparing this to DIVISION ONE football.

Before coming to Southlake Carroll, Todd Dodge coached at Cameron Yoe, Newman Smith, and Fossil Ridge for 5 seasons. Over those 5 seasons, he was a combined 11 GAMES UNDER .500. Suddenly, he arrived at Southlake Carroll, with all the tradition, history, resources, and athletes that come with it, and he's a great coach. Just like that. His spread was ahead of its time at the high school level, where sophisticated pass defenses didn't exist, and it was the perfect situation.

Again, he was 11 games under 500 over 5 years... in high school. Somehow, the same offense and same philosophy that didn't work at Yoe, NS, or FR clicked at Carroll.

SO.... these are my concerns. An offense that will surprise no one at this level, the inability to outathlete or overwhelm people with smarts and ability like at Carroll, and thus far, an abject FAILURE in each and every aspect of job performance, except crowd levels -- which, by the way, grew exponentially once tailgating was allowed and the game day experienced changed -- which I feel makes a bigger difference than Dodge did. If we had the same game day scene when we were winning 26 straight conference games, which most schools never DREAM of doing -- well, I believe we'd have had even bigger crowds. Thanks to Craig MF'n Helwig.

We've had players leave the program. We've had controversies on the news, epic blowouts, bad PR moves, inept defense, inept special teams, poorly handled demotions, and we're outcoached EVERY WEEK. It's an abortion of the highest order. Why do you have faith in THIS coach to fix it? Everything we've seen is the sign of someone completely over their head on every level. What can he do?

Again, nothing would make me happier than to see him succeed. I'm just reaching, here. I don't get it. I need convincing.

Obviously we are not in a BCS conference, but I can assure you, this wouldn't work at a Big football school. The coach might be given 3 years, but I have my doubts. I don't really know what you do at this point. I just watched the news and they showed a few plays from our game and the sportscaster said that "UNT is not even competitive at this point." I was behind Dodge 100% coming into this year, but he has lost any control of his team. This is beyond bad.

[JesseMartin]

Keep in mind, Dickey had like 8 years or something. His first 2, 3 seasons (?) had wins against equally bad teams in the Big West and I-AA teams.

I don't see them dropping Dodge just yet...but with all the players and games lost, this is spiraling out of control rather quickly.

[Green Dozer]

As young of a team as Dodge is putting on the field, I think next year we will see a marked improvement or Dodge will be gone. He seems to have stripped back the team to mostly his guys but they very young, so now we will watch as he builds his team from the ground up. Plus Delaoch will be involved in the defensive recruiting for next year, and he will have more time to get the defense molded. I have dropped all expectations this year, I just hope we can win a couple.

I am drinking more.

OK, good points. But you say that Deloach will be involved in the defensive recruiting next year. His recruits will be freshmen, right? Are they going to be that much better than the starters who leave, and good enough to replace those that are here? These recruits will be inexperienced as well. So, I don't see how we will see marked improvement next year. I mean, I think 5 wins would be a marked improvement, and unless something drastically changes, I just don't see that. I still think we are looking at 2 years. Now, I need to drink more.

[Green Dozer]

I need convincing.

Let me preface by saying how much i love this school and this team; I graduated in 2002 after 3 1/2 years covering the team with NTTV. Worked in South Florida for several years, and now I'm back finishing a second bachelor's and starting my graduate work, all at NT. Wouldn't have it any other way.

I've been on record as having a dissenting opinion regarding Darrell Dickey and the early 2000's teams, and I admit I may have some bias there.... yet I've been caught up in the Dodgeball wave, trying to give it the benefit of the doubt, trying to keep a positive attitude. When people here and elsewhere say "Dodge is gonna turn this around!" and talk about how young we are or any other excuse du jour, I generally try to buy into it, logic be damned. Tonight, though, I have to come clean as to my concerns. I need to be convinced again. I need to believe this can be fixed by this staff. Disclaimer: I'm never going to stop going to games and turn on this team. Ever. I'm just frustrated and need convincing.

So.. that being said...

What makes Todd Dodge qualified to BE here, much less fix this mess?

There's trepidation enough tied to hiring a high school coach to lead a D1 program. The road is littered with failures, it never works, etc. etc. Forgetting the Gerry Faust was completely dominant at the HS level, I went along with the theory that Dodge was so good at SLC, he must be able to transfer that to the Sun Belt level for sure, common sense and history be damned.

I've been to many SLC games over the years. Let me tell you something... my grandmother could coach SLC to 8 wins a year, and she's dead. It's a built in program, from grade school up. All the teams are the Dragons. They all run the same system. All little kids want to do is be a Dragon or cheer for the Dragons... and it's ridiculously affluent, with every advantage other school's don't have. It's Highland Park with a more rabid fan base.

SLC is 244-39 in the last 20 years. They've won 7 state titles, and appeared 8 times. They had a 72-game winning streak that spanned 7 years from 1986-1993. The coach between Ledbetter and Dodge was let go after completing the transition from 3A up to the top level, taking his bumps along the way getting up to 5A -- and he was still 12 games over .500. 12!!! Wasson lost a couple last year (one to the #1 team in the nation), but is undefeated again this year. I'm not doubting that what Dodge did at SLC was impressive -- it surely was. But CARROLL WINS. ALWAYS HAVE, ALWAYS WILL until the climate changes. No one loses at Southlake Carroll.

Again, we're comparing this to DIVISION ONE football.

Before coming to Southlake Carroll, Todd Dodge coached at Cameron Yoe, Newman Smith, and Fossil Ridge for 5 seasons. Over those 5 seasons, he was a combined 11 GAMES UNDER .500. Suddenly, he arrived at Southlake Carroll, with all the tradition, history, resources, and athletes that come with it, and he's a great coach. Just like that. His spread was ahead of its time at the high school level, where sophisticated pass defenses didn't exist, and it was the perfect situation.

Again, he was 11 games under 500 over 5 years... in high school. Somehow, the same offense and same philosophy that didn't work at Yoe, NS, or FR clicked at Carroll.

SO.... these are my concerns. An offense that will surprise no one at this level, the inability to outathlete or overwhelm people with smarts and ability like at Carroll, and thus far, an abject FAILURE in each and every aspect of job performance, except crowd levels -- which, by the way, grew exponentially once tailgating was allowed and the game day experienced changed -- which I feel makes a bigger difference than Dodge did. If we had the same game day scene when we were winning 26 straight conference games, which most schools never DREAM of doing -- well, I believe we'd have had even bigger crowds. Thanks to Craig MF'n Helwig.

We've had players leave the program. We've had controversies on the news, epic blowouts, bad PR moves, inept defense, inept special teams, poorly handled demotions, and we're outcoached EVERY WEEK. It's an abortion of the highest order. Why do you have faith in THIS coach to fix it? Everything we've seen is the sign of someone completely over their head on every level. What can he do?

Again, nothing would make me happier than to see him succeed. I'm just reaching, here. I don't get it. I need convincing.

I had looked at his overall record after the Rice game, so you are right on. I did not have the guts to post it. Your post is well founded. Dodge has players at Southlake who had all the tools to make an average player a step above average players Southlake played. The parents have money to send kids to the best quarterback schools, get personal trainers and nutritionists, several pro football players living in the community who worked with the program, etc. So, a lot players went on to Div. 1. However, there have been many great high school players at Southlake who could not play on any college level, but had the best training available to a high school athlete. Thanks for the post, and for hanging in here.

[KingDL1]

OK, good points. But you say that Deloach will be involved in the defensive recruiting next year. His recruits will be freshmen, right? Are they going to be that much better than the starters who leave, and good enough to replace those that are here? These recruits will be inexperienced as well. So, I don't see how we will see marked improvement next year. I mean, I think 5 wins would be a marked improvement, and unless something drastically changes, I just don't see that. I still think we are looking at 2 years. Now, I need to drink more.

I am hoping the young men that Dodge already recruited have talent and it will be start to show by next year, especially with Deloach's guidance.

[TheTastyGreek]

Keep in mind, Dickey had like 8 years or something. His first 2, 3 seasons (?) had wins against equally bad teams in the Big West and I-AA teams.

I don't see them dropping Dodge just yet...but with all the players and games lost, this is spiraling out of control rather quickly.

Keep in mind facts you don't even know for sure? Look up the records and then tell us we should keep in mind things that you're pulling out of your imagination.

Dickey, in HIS second season (with only 1 recruiting class under his belt, with no AC to recruit to, with the bowls in the future and 40+ years in the past, with Simon burning every bridge in sight before he got here) beat Texas Tech on the road.

Everyone seems to forget that.

[CMJ]

I went to the USC/Oregon game. In the pregame festivities some student noticed my NT t-shirt(yes Tasty, I was sort of a North Texas douche, though my friend made me wear an SC baseball cap) and struck up a conversation with me. Apparently he has a friend on the North Texas squad(the kid went to HS in Austin, no clue how he ended up at USC), and we had a nice chat.

So, I was in a pretty good mood until I texted Emmitt around halftime of the Trojan game and asked how we were doing. When he wrote back we were down 42-3 I seriously was stunned.

This is turning into an abomination on the level of Vic Trilli.

[TheTastyGreek]

I went to the USC/Oregon game. In the pregame festivities some student noticed my NT t-shirt(yes Tasty, I was sort of a North Texas douche, though my friend made me wear an SC baseball cap) and struck up a conversation with me.

I've been a North Texas douche once or twice before. There are pictures on the site (with my face obscured, of course).

Just don't go the other direction and don't make a habit of it, and you will be absolved.

[CMJ]

I've been a North Texas douche once or twice before. There are pictures on the site (with my face obscured, of course).

Just don't go the other direction and don't make a habit of it, and you will be absolved.

Hey man, I didn't care. In a sea of Cardinal and Gold I was proud to wear a NT shirt.

Though it was one of my grey ones. Didn't want to be confused with an Oregon person and get the crap kicked out of me.

[meangreendork]

Dickey was fired for less than this current mess.

There was a lot that wasn't ever made public. What we did find out was about poor player academics, thefts, and some other unsavory things. Even without that, Dickey was given 8 years to do something big, and he blew his first few years in the process of scoring his miracle recruiting classes that produced the 2001-2004 SBC run. Mind you, that was a heck of a run, but the fans still wanted better OOC performance, and Dickey basically didn't care about the OOC games, he didn't allow for much offensive flexibility and he had more than his share of questionable play calls. And within the 2001-2004 run, you saw a few squeaker games with 3-point margins, and even with the very nice blowouts in the incredible 2002 and 2003 seasons, you could also see the parity between teams get smaller and smaller and the margins become closer and closer, and this moreso after DeLoach was bought away from UNT. In Dickey's last season, you could almost tell he was looking for a way to be bought out of his contract, especially with the black jersey incident.

I'm hoping that this mess is a result of Dodge going and cleaning house of the poorly disciplined players. We saw that happen last year, so it's not a huge shock to see it now. What IS a shock is the sort of serious repercussions that result in 42-10 whippings.

I do have to say, it's incredibly hard to defend the cause of a new stadium with this kind of performance. It's hard to defend it to myself like this, except under the hopes that the current mess will be fixed and that the new stadium will bring better recruits, more donations, more money, and a start of the money/wins cycle a lot of other schools enjoy.

[TheTastyGreek]

There was a lot that wasn't ever made public. What we did find out was about poor player academics, thefts, and some other unsavory things.

Brother, there's a HELL of a lot that's not public right now.

[Green Mean]

You dont need anyone to talk you out of it because you know and have seen whats out there. This team is just terrible.

[Smitty]

As young of a team as Dodge is putting on the field, I think next year we will see a marked improvement or Dodge will be gone. He seems to have stripped back the team to mostly his guys but they very young, so now we will watch as he builds his team from the ground up. Plus Delaoch will be involved in the defensive recruiting for next year, and he will have more time to get the defense molded. I have dropped all expectations this year, I just hope we can win a couple.

I am drinking more.

I have a serious problem with a coach who can only coach "his guys."

[Green Mean]

I have a serious problem with a coach who can only coach "his guys."

Exactly. I just never really buy those terms coaches say. Its all baloni.

[Green Dozer]

I am hoping the young men that Dodge already recruited have talent and it will be start to show by next year, especially with Deloach's guidance.

Thanks for the clarification. I sure hope your right, and I appreciate your good insight.

[rcade]

Keep in mind, Dickey had like 8 years or something. His first 2, 3 seasons (?) had wins against equally bad teams in the Big West and I-AA teams.

Dodge is 2-15 in his first 17 games with UNT, with wins over Louisiana-Monroe and Western Kentucky and eight losses of 30 or more points, including the last five games.

Dickey was 5-12 at the same point in his tenure, with wins over Boise State (twice), Nevada, New Mexico State and Texas Tech, and two losses of 30 or more points.

There's simply no comparison with how they started out at UNT, particularly when you consider Dickey's Texas Tech shocker and the unbelievable number of blowout losses under Dodge.

I'm willing to give Dodge this season and perhaps the next to prove himself, if the blowouts stop and we win a couple games. His players are young and his offense last year was at times spectacular. But at this point, the numbers suggest a coach who doesn't belong atop a program in the bowl subdivision.

[KingDL1]

Exactly. I just never really buy those terms coaches say. Its all baloni.

Not that I know what all the problems were or are in the transition to a new head coach. I think it may start with the attitude of the players with new coach, if they are unhappy with the change and say were the players used to a lack of discipline it will be tough for a new coaching staff to get through. Then talent level of the players inherited for the system you are putting in place. Add having several key players drop out, with a coach new to head coaching in D1a football and some of the learning curve that new coach must go through. I think that is why the gerneral rule of 4-5 years.

Hayden Fry's Third year as a head coach was with SMU, he had only one win and it was against UTA.

Hayden Fry's third season as a head coach

Not that I am happy with what I am seeing, but it looks like it has happened before.

[UNT Mean Green]

I don't think Coach Dodge is in over his head, I do though believe some of the assistant coaches/position coaches don't have the knowledge or experience to adjust to this level of play (without naming names or position(s) coached). Every team we play seems to do the little things well, and we don't seem to do those. I know we make a lot of mistakes young football teams are going to make (penalties, turnovers, special teams), but the little things seem to be missing that could make a big difference in the outcome of games.

Coach Dodge is a great man, a good leader, and a good football coach, I just believe he needs a few more assistants with legitimate Division 1/Professional coaching experience in order to take some of the weight off of his shoulders. We have 3-4 assistants with little to no Division 1 coaching experience and that could be making a huge difference in the players doing the little things and/or executing proper technique.

[Dodge2007]

I don't think Coach Dodge is in over his head, I do though believe some of the assistant coaches/position coaches don't have the knowledge or experience to adjust to this level of play (without naming names or position(s) coached). Every team we play seems to do the little things well, and we don't seem to do those. I know we make a lot of mistakes young football teams are going to make (penalties, turnovers, special teams), but the little things seem to be missing that could make a big difference in the outcome of games.

Coach Dodge is a great man, a good leader, and a good football coach, I just believe he needs a few more assistants with legitimate Division 1/Professional coaching experience in order to take some of the weight off of his shoulders. We have 3-4 assistants with little to no Division 1 coaching experience and that could be making a huge difference in the players doing the little things and/or executing proper technique.

Coach Dodge is learning his way around the collegiate environment. He used to be able to out coach his opponents before and had superior talent ESPECIALLY on the line of scrimmage. That is whole lot of folks who didn't appreciate the boys in the trenches at SLC.

Dodge underestimated the Belt and now will rectify problems as he goes. I believe he is a good coach but a very inexperienced coach in the grand scheme of things. Dodge was tad arrogant coming out of SLC but he will be a better coach from this in the long haul. Let's see what he can do.

[greenblooded43]

I am hoping the young men that Dodge already recruited have talent and it will be start to show by next year, especially with Deloach's guidance.

I hope Deloach can recriut better than he can coach defense. Believe me, his yelling ain't getting it done. He needs to coach, after all he's to good to wear headphones and let his other assistants in the box help. Another observation, when the offense is on the field, he needs to be with his defense and letting them know what the F@#$$%^ just happened to them. Watching the offense isn't helping our defense. The other coaches are working at thier jobs on the bench. I'm tired of coach Dodge and his other coaches, he brought in, catching flack about being H.S.. Well the the DC is a D-1 coach, whatever, he should catch as much flack as the special teams coach. Personally, Deloach hasn't showed me anything . Football is Football. Try doing something besides cover 1 all night, we got burned.

Believe me there could of been adjustments.

[VideoEagle]

I hope Deloach can recriut better than he can coach defense. Believe me, his yelling ain't getting it done. He needs to coach, after all he's to good to wear headphones and let his other assistants in the box help. Another observation, when the offense is on the field, he needs to be with his defense and letting them know what the F@#$$%^ just happened to them. Watching the offense isn't helping our defense. The other coaches are working at thier jobs on the bench. I'm tired of coach Dodge and his other coaches, he brought in, catching flack about being H.S.. Well the the DC is a D-1 coach, whatever, he should catch as much flack as the special teams coach. Personally, Deloach hasn't showed me anything . Football is Football. Try doing something besides cover 1 all night, we got burned.

Believe me there could of been adjustments.

Gary Deloach is the primary reason we went to four bowl games in a row. He was hired away by UCLA and while there is area was one of few bright spots at UCLA. With the skins he has hanging on the wall he certainly doesn't have anything to prove.