Outside Stadium Support

[shaft]

Has there been any talk of support from the County or City? Like say some portion of the hotel/motel tax?

The University likes to tout its "partnership" with the State and City of Dallas relating to the law school, what do we have going on the local scene?

[JesseMartin]

It's a tricky funding situation when there's a building involved. Technically, any money UNT raises is considered "state money" as soon as it touches the University. To get a partnership with the City would require a huge leap of faith on the city's part, because they'd have to pretty much pledge X amount of dollars to the state for the stadium...and though recent growth has been good, Denton has a lot of infrastructure needs and such that are a priority.

Lots of people involved, from City Council through committees and staff and neighborhood groups, have ties to the University, so if it was feasible, there would probably be a lot of support...but it's a hard row to hoe. Also, it is very rare (and very difficult) to get the state to agree on a joint venture with cities, because you basically have two government entities involved in the power and authority over that venture.

Basically, it's not impossible, but very difficult to get it to happen. One thing the City of Denton could do, however, is push the campaign for donors. That wouldn't require any crossover at all, it would just be them helping us get people to give us money.

[KRAM1]

The very least the City and County should do, if they cannot find some way to financially support a project that will bring many many $$$$$ to the city and county, would be to help advertise the project in the hopes of building public support. You are kidding youself if you think all those folks with "university ties" that work in the City and County gov's (either paid or volunteer) would lift much of a finger to help. Seems to me most have a "not in my backyard" view when it comes to development of any kind in the City of Denton. Big help with the Fry Street project, wern't they? What about the Denton Sports Commission (or whatever you call it)...will they step up and do anything in the way of support???? Just wondering. I tried to "volunteer" to be on the sport commission board not too long ago when I actually worked in denton. You would have thought I had small pox or something from the absolutely "snobbish" reaction I received to my offer to help. Hey, there are some great folks on that ccommission, but sort of seemed like a "good ole' boy" recation to my offer to help. But, that's another story altogether. Just "laughed" that one off...no harm no foul...just trying to help. Don't want it...don't need it, great for you...glad you have all the help and volunteers you need. Now, however, how about stepping up and doing something to help the stadium project...I know you are out there, and "your" help would be appreciated...City, County, Sports Commission, etc., etc.

[mad dog]

Also, it is very rare (and very difficult) to get the state to agree on a joint venture with cities, because you basically have two government entities involved in the power and authority over that venture.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Technically speaking, municipalities in Texas only exist as subdivisions of the state. Their governance is authorized by state law, and there are constant revenue streams (most notably Sales Tax) that are actually paid to the state, and then remitted to the city.

In terms of joint ventures, this happens all the time. There are several instances of TxDOT working with municipalities on roads, TCEQ working with Public Works directors on Water and Wastewater infrastructure, and so forth. Finally, since cities are legally nothing more than subdivisions of state authority, any project that the State bids on is available to be "piggybacked" on by cities.

Now, when it comes to whether or not Denton can chose to contribute money to the stadium effort, there's not a problem that I see from a city side. The city where I work is mulling a bond election to contribute funds to renovate a privately owned museum. If there is some kind of public benefit to public dollars, then you at least have a case to make before Council. If the problem exists from the University side, then I can't speak to that.

[shaft]

I know for a fact that City and County can contribute funds to the stadium project.

I also know the City spends a lot of hotel/motel money on the Chamber of Commerce to operate the Denton Convention & Visitors Bureau. So what are they doing to support the stadium project?

The CVB can find ways to support area horse ranches and and old west wagon trails, what are they doing to support "sports" related tourism.

[NT80]

I know for a fact that City and County can contribute funds to the stadium project.

I also know the City spends a lot of hotel/motel money on the Chamber of Commerce to operate the Denton Convention & Visitors Bureau. So what are they doing to support the stadium project?

The CVB can find ways to support area horse ranches and and old west wagon trails, what are they doing to support "sports" related tourism.

I think Denton is a very poor supporter of UNT's athletic programs. Any other college town would love to have top level college sports drawing fans to local businesses. Visit a similar size town in Stillwater, Okla on a football game day or non-game day as example.

For extra funding and revenue has RV/UNT not looked into leasing it's mineral rights at Eagle Point and around campus? I hear the Denton Airport is self funded with 3 gas wells and has more money than they know what to do with. But the money has to stay on the airport because of federal aviation funding rules or some such restriction on why the city of Denton can't get it. Could natural gas royalties go toward funding NT athletics or would the state control that revenue?

[JesseMartin]

Yeah, I wasn't being uber-specific, but the point is that there would be a lot of red tape...and for the city to sign on there would probably have to be a lot of revenue-sharing, which I doubt UNT or the state would be interested in.

As far as involved City of Denton people...there are some, yes, that couldn't care less and wouldn't help...but then you have others (even if they're not involved now) like Euline and Horace Brock, Perry McNeil, and Neil Durrance who are very good for North Texas.

The Fry St. debacle had nothing to do (directly) with the University. Damning the City because they tried something that, in hindsight, didn't work (though a lot of us said it wouldn't all along), which took out bars and a couple of restaurants (mostly just the Tomato, since Chopsticks already has plenty going for them since the change) is entirely incomparable to work on the stadium, which is on STATE land owned by a STATE University and will bring in revenue for the city. As much as we might not want to admit it, pretty much all of the revenue "lost" from removing Fry St. businesses ended up elsewhere in Denton, so the city's revenue remained the same overall.

Keep in mind that very few people involved in the Fry St. issue had UNT ties. Most of the ones I was referring to are either involved in other (non-Council) areas of City programs/staff/etc, or were not elected members of the Council when the Fry issue came to a vote. We have more friends out there than most people think...but Fry wasn't anything the admin or anyone else in an "official" capacity at UNT had an "official" stake in, and which bar or pizza place students drink or eat at has very little bearing on *some* City officials.

Oops, there were some more replies before I posted.

Lots of "attractions" bring tax dollars to the city. Lots of University revenue (such as ticket sales, if I'm not mistaken) doesn't send tax $$ to the city.

As far as mineral rights, that's a really complicated thing when a) on state land and B ) at a University. If you want to pursue it, call Phil Diebel's office at UNT. The man knows everything. So does Richard Rafes & co.

Edited September 11, 2008 by JesseMartin

[UNT_playmaker]

The City of Denton can't even help themselves with their own projects. The city has never gotten behind the program much less a new stadium....

Look at these recent Denton failures:

Rayzor Ranch ( supposed to built by 2008 and grass has over grown the dirt on the site without a tractor in sight, every single start-up date has never been met.

Fry Street Village (huge eyesore across the street from UNT, would have been much better if they left the damn thing alone, they need to get a developer who will build bars and retail on the bottom and apts and lofts on the second and third floors)

Unicorn Lake ( this project has been touted for years with plans for a large grocer (Tom Thumb) or health food store ( Whole Foods/ Central Market) and many other retail stores ( Kohls/Marshalls) and the entire project fell through. All they have on the property is the Pourhouse and a senior citizen center. Wait they are planning to build three new banks on the land development that all fell through after all of these years. I think the developers are the Sheltons, piss poor developing indeed.

Goldne Triangle Mall ( plans for a $50 million renovation are on hold because all if not most of their tenants are moving out or not paying rent since they are all temporary stores owned by foreigners.)

Oaktree Plaza Phase II ( this is a mega development behind the walmart superstore in denton and has never gone anywhere).

Denton is the most profitable city in the metroplex and it is not seeing any development like Lewisville/ Flower Mound/ and Grapevine. What is going on in this city....

[JesseMartin]

Playmaker, your point fits both Denton AND UNT quite well...because a big problem with both is that people who make it big or are the most qualified (or both) coming from the city or the school...usually take their money and talent elsewhere. We still get some of them, but a lot move on for some reason. Maybe it's because they could bring change, but feel insecure about trying in places that were, for so long, resistant to change. Let's hope this changes soon.

[UNT_playmaker]

Playmaker, your point fits both Denton AND UNT quite well...because a big problem with both is that people who make it big or are the most qualified (or both) coming from the city or the school...usually take their money and talent elsewhere. We still get some of them, but a lot move on for some reason. Maybe it's because they could bring change, but feel insecure about trying in places that were, for so long, resistant to change. Let's hope this changes soon.

It's not going to change anytime soon. Developers and Retailers are knocking on the door and they have gone elsewhere, look at Lewisville or Grapevine for instance. Sam's Club and Tom Thumb wanted to be in Denton before Lewisville and Denton stalled them, they went elsewhere. I guess the same is true for the stadium, it pisses me off so much that the donor funding was a complete failure and everything lies on the support of the students. Rick Villareal's job should lie on balance per the results of the stadium vote by the students.

It should be held accountable for this debacle.....

[shaft]

Fully aware of City of Denton reputation on economic development projects and the complexities of inter-local agreements is why I'm bringing up the Denton Chamber of Commerce and the City of Denton's Hotel/Motel fund. People on this board are Chamber members and can simply ask the chamber what they are doing to support the stadium and sports related tourism.

[JesseMartin]

Considering how much has changed since he's been here, I have to disagree with you on that one. Fortunately, he actually has admin support, which we've lacked in years past...but if you look at the changes, you can see that they've all come since RV showed up. Unless you can find me somebody who's done a bigger turnaround job at a school whose spirit was as crappy as ours was, I don't see any point in letting him go any time soon. There's still more that we want, but our athletics and spirit are light years beyond what they were before Rick showed up.

[JesseMartin]

Fully aware of City of Denton reputation on economic development projects and the complexities of inter-local agreements is why I'm bringing up the Denton Chamber of Commerce and the City of Denton's Hotel/Motel fund. People on this board are Chamber members and can simply ask the chamber what they are doing to support the stadium and sports related tourism.

SMU and TCU get coupons in Entertainment (the passport book with coupons for EVERYTHING). I mentioned it about 7 or 8 years ago but there didn't seem to be much interest. That's certainly a good way to push people to come visit Denton...I believe the Stars, Rangers, and Mavs had stuff in Entertainment back then as well. Haven't had a DFW one in a few years so I can't speak to any current trends with sports coupons. Still, we should try it and see how it goes.

[shaft]

Why don't we make the discussion about the student vote being a referendum on RV into its own thread.

I was trying to use thread as a way to get some people on this board who are Denton voters and Denton Chamber of Commerce members to flex their muscle a little bit.

The City and Chamber have the ability to respond rather quickly to issues relating to tourism and hotel/motel funds.

So if your a chamber member do us a favor and ask the director what the Chamber is doing to support the stadium?

Edited September 11, 2008 by shaft

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

I'm not sure exactly what the Greater Denton Sports Commission does but if they can help monetarily then we should have a real leg up. The manager of the Super Pit, Steve Selby, is the Chairman and Hank Dickenson is the Vice-Chairman. Rick Villareal is also a Director.

[JesseMartin]

...or we could brainstorm economically viable options to present to the Chamber that would be beneficial to both the University and the city. Since we don't have any "leverage" over them, they might appreciate that more than us having people "pressure" them into finding a solution for us. The Entertainment Book thing is just an example, but there are lots of discounts, coupons, offers, etc. that the city, chamber, or school could offer that would get some people from other parts of the Metroplex to go north for the weekend.

People who live in Denton do go elsewhere for entertainment, so the big questions are:

1) How do we get them to spend their money where they live?

2) How do we get people elsewhere to spend money in Denton?

3) What can we do to get UNT involved in this, so that both North Texas AND the City of Denton profit from the outcome?

If neither we nor the Chamber can come up with answers to these questions, then the point is moot. And again, trying to "pressure" the Chamber to do us favors won't get you anywhere, because UNT is obviously not moving, so the city will profit from our presence regardless...the thing they will want to know is, how can the city profit MORE from our presence?

Let's try to be productive and see if we can pull it off. If we can just stir up creativity and then rethink the ideas into realistic solutions instead of flat-out arguing, then maybe we can nominate someone to take the ideas to the Chamber to attempt a citywide cross-promotion.

[Smitty]

I haven't lived in Denton in many years, but I get up there regularly. I don't keep up with the city's dealings, but I have seen what has happened in the last decade or so with the Square and the area around it. The Square got a major facelift and is doing well because of it. All kinds of local business went in there, filling a number of existing spaces around the Square that were empty. The streets leading into and out of the Square have also been remarkably renovated. The facelift hit the buildings, the sidewalks, the streets, and the old courthouse. It looks great, but they did not throw out some of the businesses that were long-time residents (like Denton County Independent Hamburger Company, aka the GOD of burgers-and-fries). I used to shop at Fultz's bookstore and go to movies at the Fine Arts and the Campus theaters, and it is amazing to see what Denton has done with that area. The really nice thing is they overhauled it without losing the historic look of the Square. There are all kinds of restaurants in the area that were not there not too long ago, and they've even cleaned up Carroll Blvd. all the way to I-35. They've even got some law firms on the Square. Okay, so there is a downside.

I don't know who was behind it all, but major projects do happen in Denton.

As for the idea that "Any other college town would love to have top level college sports," North Texas has been unable to provide top-level college sports for decades. We've talked rings around the problems our athletics have suffered, and I saw up-close the past athletic directors who simply did not care about developing the facilities and programs. Frankly, until recent years, North Texas did very little to deserve support. We've been marked by losing teams, student and administration apathy, and poor attendance. Rick V is the first AD I can remember who really seems to care and has made major strides in upgrading facilities and growing the athletic department, and I strongly believe in what he is doing. But after decades of stagnation at UNT, I can't blame any entity - public or private - for taking a show-me attitude towards Mean Green athletics, especially when it comes to replacing Fouts Field.

And I cannot blame anyone for withholding support until after the upcoming vote by the students. If the University won't vote for the stadium, if UNT won't help itself, then why should anyone else support it? And just to add, I strongly believe the students should have the right to vote on the stadium fee. It's their money and they should decide how it's spent.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Smitty

[UNTflyer]

I doubt we will get direct support for the stadium from the city or county. But, we will be able to rent out meeting space in our new luxury boxes. For example, the President's Box will be able to hold up to 30 guests. Other meeting areas will be available as well.

[oldguystudent]

Just do what every other city in the universe does when they want to fund a new stadium. Raise the hotel taxes to 8 bazillion percent. Then it doesn't cost the city a dime. We just get to bilk the fans of the opposing teams out of the money to pay for it.

[GreenAlums]

Just do what every other city in the universe does when they want to fund a new stadium. Raise the hotel taxes to 8 bazillion percent. Then it doesn't cost the city a dime. We just get to bilk the fans of the opposing teams out of the money to pay for it.

Hypothetically that sounds good but you are forgetting that Denton has very little tourism and as a result very little hotel activity. It would have to be raised 16 bazillion percent over two lifetimes. Denton will need to dramatically support development and tourism (like this stadium) before any real tourism activity will occur. Denton has advanced light-years since I was in school there in the late 70's. Unfortunately, it has light-years more to go before it realizes where to put it's support, development and financial backing.

[oldguystudent]

Hypothetically that sounds good but you are forgetting that Denton has very little tourism and as a result very little hotel activity. It would have to be raised 16 bazillion percent over two lifetimes. Denton will need to dramatically support development and tourism (like this stadium) before any real tourism activity will occur. Denton has advanced light-years since I was in school there in the late 70's. Unfortunately, it has light-years more to go before it realizes where to put it's support, development and financial backing.

Hmm.. Ok. Then failing that idea, let's follow the lead of our fearless governor and his answer to everything. Put a toll on the section of 35 that passes through Denton. *So grumbles the Frisco resident held captive to tolls in every direction out of town!*

[UNTflyer]

The best way to get outside funds will be to build a landmark stadium that people will want to use for meetings and special events. That's the plan.

[houstonmeangreen]

Considering how much has changed since he's been here, I have to disagree with you on that one. Fortunately, he actually has admin support, which we've lacked in years past...but if you look at the changes, you can see that they've all come since RV showed up. Unless you can find me somebody who's done a bigger turnaround job at a school whose spirit was as crappy as ours was, I don't see any point in letting him go any time soon. There's still more that we want, but our athletics and spirit are light years beyond what they were before Rick showed up.

You couldn't be more right........things are sooooo much better now since RV came aboard.

[UNTflyer]

Considering how much has changed since he's been here, I have to disagree with you on that one. Fortunately, he actually has admin support, which we've lacked in years past...but if you look at the changes, you can see that they've all come since RV showed up. Unless you can find me somebody who's done a bigger turnaround job at a school whose spirit was as crappy as ours was, I don't see any point in letting him go any time soon. There's still more that we want, but our athletics and spirit are light years beyond what they were before Rick showed up.

Between 1952 and 2001, a total of $1.3 million was spent on athletics facilities (the Coliseum does not count because it is considered a University facility, not an athletics facility).

[JesseMartin]

Good point...which reminds me, when the metal endzone bleachers were put in, there was some weirdness about funding, so a bunch of money went into an endowed SA (now SGA) scholarship. It's not publicized but is still on the books. When I was in SGA it was rarely discussed, and many people weren't motivated enough to even apply for it, so on two occasions, there was only one applicant who (of course) got the $$. I bet a certain GMG.com member has shown enough spirit, involvement, and leadership to show himself deserving of this, the most obscure of financial aid packages...(Merry Christmas! Oh, and for more fun facts, it wasn't even awarded for a few years because nobody knew about it!)