What Recession?

[FirefightnRick]

Vote Democrat: It's better than working!

Rick

By the way, that was a bumper sticker I saw that caused me to laugh so hard I nearly had to just pull over from laughing.

Rick

[UNTFan23]

Remember folks:

[Coffee and TV]

The BLS uses the same standards to calculate these statistics. There is no playing with the numbers. Sorry if facts are hard for you to take.

Sorry if its hard for you to take the idea that your numbers aren't carved into stone.

Silly? Nice rebuttal. I stand by my previous statement, unless you or a close family member are are seriously sick, health care costs don't affect you. It's like car accidents or house fires... it sucks when they happen but that's why you buy insurance.

My insurance at work costs $640 a month for my family of 4 with a $9000 deductable. Its silly to say that health care doesn't affect as many people as food or gas. Everyone has to go to the doctor once in a while. Everyone gets sick once in a while.

EVERY TIME a Democrat is in the White House? Hmm, let's start with the Dem before Clinton - Jimmy Carter. They invented the Pain Index during his term - no need to even further discuss Mr. Peanut. LBJ? The economy took a dive in the 2nd half of his only full term. Before that was JFK, the President who slashed taxes in a very Republican-like way, which spurred economic growth until LBJ's last 2 years of office. Before that... Truman. The country was coming out of a long world war preceded by a sever depression. You could have put a dead slug in the Oval Office and enjoyed the 8.7% and 7.7% GDP growth that Truman had in 1950 and 1951.

You can try and break it down and play semantics all you want, but the proof is in the pudding. When Democrats are in the white house = more economic growth.

No, Microsoft didn't employ 15 million people but they helped create economies of scale through efficiency and production increases that spurred the economic growth of the 1990s.

Of course they did, but I just figured I could use a rebuttal that used an absolute just like you did.

Geez, how do you think economies work? That the President just pushes a button and jobs are created?

Yes. Its a magic button under his desk in the oval office. Lewinski bumped it a few times with her head.

Are you sure you graduated college?

wut is collage?

[Coffee and TV]

It is not a stereotype at it is a fact that people on welfare or supplemented by welfare vote nearly 100% democratic, and not even an arguable fact.

And nearly 100% of white supremacists will be voting for McCain this election.

See how that works?

[Censored by Laurie]

And nearly 100% of white supremacists will be voting for McCain this election.

See how that works?

I haven't agreed with your style...but this is just a great line

[yyz28]

Yes. Its a magic button under his desk in the oval office. Lewinski bumped it a few times with her head.

Now... THAT's FUNNY! ROTFLMAO!!!!

[UNTflyer]

My insurance at work costs $640 a month for my family of 4 with a $9000 deductable. Its silly to say that health care doesn't affect as many people as food or gas. Everyone has to go to the doctor once in a while. Everyone gets sick once in a while.

Sounds like you need to go shopping for better insurance. Who's fault is it that you pay a ridiculous insurance premium. Jesus, you can shop on the Internet and get better insurance than that... or maybe you feel someone else should pay for you and your kids to have health insurance?

I just went to eHealthInsurance and pulled a quote for a family of 4 - Humana health insurance for $241 a month and a $7,500 deductible.

And no, my point isn't "silly" because everyone eats and everyone uses gasoline in some fashion every single day. Becoming seriously ill is not an every day occurrence for every person.

[UNTflyer]

And nearly 100% of white supremacists will be voting for McCain this election.

See how that works?

Yeah... McCain's stance on Immigration Reform will almost surely make your claim invalid.

[Coffee and TV]

Sounds like you need to go shopping for better insurance.

My wife did. We have our kids covered for about $215 with a $1000 deductible and co-pays only on doc visits.

Who's fault is it that you pay a ridiculous insurance premium.

Republican lawmakers have cozied up to the insurance and drug companies for 6 years. Those same companies literally wrote legislation as well.

or maybe you feel someone else should pay for you and your kids to have health insurance?

Maybe you're an asshole who makes too many assumptions.

And maybe I think that government-backed health insurance as an OPTION should be available.

And no, my point isn't "silly" because everyone eats and everyone uses gasoline in some fashion every single day. Becoming seriously ill is not an every day occurrence for every person.

Seriously ill isn't the issue, everyone needs health insurance. Everyone needs the doctor. Shit, half the people that can't afford insurance don't even use a car, they take public transportation.

[Coffee and TV]

Yeah... McCain's stance on Immigration Reform will almost surely make your claim invalid.

And that flew right over your head.

[yyz28]

Republican lawmakers have cozied up to the insurance and drug companies for 6 years. Those same companies literally wrote legislation as well.

From Jan. 1, 2007 through March of this year, people and political action committees in the health sector have contributed $42 million and to Democratic candidates for congress and the presidency, compared with $34.6 million to Republicans, Dow Jones Newswires reports. That’s a 55% to 45% split, and a big shift from the way things have been. From the 1990 election through the present, total health sector donations have favored Republicans 58% to 42%.

...but I'm sure the Democrats won't have to "pay" back those favors or anything. LOL! Newsflash - Companies donate to parties in power.

I am married into a family of healthcare providers, and I hear them talk. Malpractice insurance is the biggest expense in their practicies. Not salaries. Not drugs and treatments. Nope... Malpractice insurance. Why? The number of frivilous lawsuits filed against doctors. Tort-Reform is desprately needed and will help a great deal to get healthcare costs down.

Maybe you're an asshole who makes too many assumptions.

M'kay... see, this is what will get the thread locked...

And maybe I think that government-backed health insurance as an OPTION should be available.

I think this is a bad idea. First, if there is a government option, companies are dis-incented to offer plans on their own. Second, there is no such thing as "Government Backed". What you mean is "Tax-Payer Backed". Unlimited Free Supply will create unlimited demand. Unlimited demand leads to rationing. Simple economics.

To resolve an issue that may OR MAY NOT be an issue for 15% of the country, we're going to force the other 85% of us who have healh care and the 60+% of us who are happy with our coverage to change what we have? Good plan. (<-- I type that with my tounge burried in my cheek..)

Seriously ill isn't the issue, everyone needs health insurance. Everyone needs the doctor. Shit, half the people that can't afford insurance don't even use a car, they take public transportation.

...and MANY of those who don't have health insurance are without because they can't afford it... many choose to spend their money on other things. People who NEED healthcare and can't afford it have an outlet at county AND private hospitals - they can't deny treatment, by law - WE'RE ALREADY PAYING FOR THAT SERVICE FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT.

[Harry]

Thanks Coffee and Tea, I really enjoy having to edit posts for foul language on a holiday weekend Friday. Come on man you have been a big contributor here for a long time, you are better than that.

[Coffee and TV]

From Jan. 1, 2007 through March of this year, people and political action committees in the health sector have contributed $42 million and to Democratic candidates for congress and the presidency, compared with $34.6 million to Republicans, Dow Jones Newswires reports. That’s a 55% to 45% split, and a big shift from the way things have been. From the 1990 election through the present, total health sector donations have favored Republicans 58% to 42%.

...but I'm sure the Democrats won't have to "pay" back those favors or anything. LOL! Newsflash - Companies donate to parties in power.

Newslfash: let me know when they're writing legislation for Democratic drug bills.

I am married into a family of healthcare providers, and I hear them talk. Malpractice insurance is the biggest expense in their practicies. Not salaries. Not drugs and treatments. Nope... Malpractice insurance. Why? The number of frivilous lawsuits filed against doctors. Tort-Reform is desprately needed and will help a great deal to get healthcare costs down.

Malpractice lawsuits account for less than 1% of the total healthcare costs. I married a paralegal. Many of her attorneys were laid off after prop 12 because they can no longer take as many cases. And how much affect has it had on healthcare costs since they passed that bill?

I think this is a bad idea. First, if there is a government option, companies are dis-incented to offer plans on their own. Second, there is no such thing as "Government Backed". What you mean is "Tax-Payer Backed". Unlimited Free Supply will create unlimited demand. Unlimited demand leads to rationing. Simple economics.

Simple economics also says that a plan where you're paying 50% less by going through a government-backed plan will mean that private insurance companies will have to lower their premiums to to keep up.

To resolve an issue that may OR MAY NOT be an issue for 15% of the country, we're going to force the other 85% of us who have healh care and the 60+% of us who are happy with our coverage to change what we have? Good plan. (<-- I type that with my tounge burried in my cheek..)

Apparently you didn't read my quote very well. I said I backed the OPTION of people getting government-backed health insurance, not being forced to to have health insurance. That was one of the main policy differences between Hillary and Obama.

...and MANY of those who don't have health insurance are without because they can't afford it... many choose to spend their money on other things.

link?

People who NEED healthcare and can't afford it have an outlet at county AND private hospitals - they can't deny treatment, by law - WE'RE ALREADY PAYING FOR THAT SERVICE FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT.

And its costing us a lot more than any government-based insurance plan would.

[Coffee and TV]

Thanks Coffee and Tea, I really enjoy having to edit posts for foul language on a holiday weekend Friday. Come on man you have been a big contributor here for a long time, you are better than that.

Fair enough. Sometimes I can sound like a real jerkoff when it comes to threads like these and for that I'm sorry. I don't apologize for biting back after KRAM1 got personal.

I'll just excuse myself from these types of threads from here on out.

[yyz28]

Newslfash: let me know when they're writing legislation for Democratic drug bills.

Medicare Prescription Drug Plan was a bi-partisan plan... ...where'e the news link proving this happend, btw. I'm going to demand of you what you demand of me...

Malpractice lawsuits account for less than 1% of the total healthcare costs. I married a paralegal. Many of her attorneys were laid off after prop 12 because they can no longer take as many cases. And how much affect has it had on healthcare costs since they passed that bill?

First, back up your claim. ...let me hit you with your favorite word... LINK?

I'm not talking about lawsuits, I'm talking about the cost of the insuracne doctors, providers and hospitals must carry... that cost is passed on to us. I don't care what your paralegal expert says. I know what my Father-In-Law PAYS per year in Malpractice insurance. That cost is passed on to the patient. ...that insurance is that high because of the cost to defend lawsuits, many of which are frivilous.

Simple economics also says that a plan where you're paying 50% less by going through a government-backed plan will mean that private insurance companies will have to lower their premiums to to keep up.

The problem here is that between them the five biggest health insurers—UnitedHealthCare, Wellpoint, Aetna, Humana, and Cigna—which cover 105 million members, last year had profits between them of $11.8 billion. This is not a small number; these are very profitable companies. But total U.S. health care costs last year were in the area of $2.3 trillion. So, with a membership that included a little more than half of the Americans covered by private insurance, these five insurers’ profits came to 0.5 percent of total health care costs. Profit on insurance premiums are not the lion's share of the costs. You can't drop your price below your costs and stay in business.

Why do you think that you're going to pay 50% less? Where does that number come from? I don't care who's providing the insurance. If the costs are 89% of the premiums we currently pay, how do we get down to 50% without the Government (meaning the tax-payer) picking up the remaining 35% of the tab? That's 800 Billion Dollars that has to come from somewhere? Where are we gonna get it? ...that's right, we're going to raise taxes on the companies and investors that create the jobs in this country. The dems call them "the rich".

Apparently you didn't read my quote very well. I said I backed the OPTION of people getting government-backed health insurance, not being forced to to have health insurance. That was one of the main policy differences between Hillary and Obama.

Oh, I read it... I just know that once the government is offering subsidized healthcare, companies are going to have no reason to continue to offer healthcare to the employee... Why have an expense item for something you're already paying taxes to provide. Again, this is a VERY simple concept.

link?

I can't give you a link, but I know for a fact this is the case. I don't know the percentage, but I know from experience that this is true. Talk to young people, and see what they tell you about health insurance. My wife works for a company where health insurance for her and our child costs about $215 a month. This is a bargin when compared to the plan my company can afford (we're very small, yet we still cover our employee's premium 100%) 215 is $7 a day, and many of my wife's coworkers CHOOSE not to sacrafice their lifestyle to have insurance for themselves and their kids. I've had employees who make 60+K a year turn down our family coverage. It isn't a matter of "can't afford it". It's a matter of "can't afford it AND maintain the wants in my life I think I need to maintain" for many. When you look at surveys, somewhere between 6-10% of thsoe who are uninsured say they "choose not to have it", which upwards of 50% of those polled say they can't afford it... ...but what isn't studied is how many of that 50% choose to spend their money on a car payment instead of driving a used car and paying for insurance.. It doen't take into account how many of them have $100-$150 cable or satellite service hooked to a HD TV, yet don't have health insurance. It doesn't take into account how many of these families eat out 5 times a week, but don't buy health insurance. What I'm saying is that it doesn't take into account the "priority" factor. I don't pretend to know what that percentage is, but it is a percentage that adds to the 6-10%. A full 3/4 of those without health insurance live above the poverty line, so this isn't just a case of the super-poor who don't have a decent lifestyle are those without health insurance.

And its costing us a lot more than any government-based insurance plan would.

Actually, that isn't the case. The ENTIRE Health and Human services budget for 2008 is $787 billion. The math demonstrated above, this program you support will cost $800 for the Healthcare portion alone, and that assumes costs don't go up. ...so this plan is going to cost us more.

Good debate, I'm enjoying it. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this issue.