And, Sadly, This Voice Of Reason Will Be Scoffed At...

JayDub · August 22, 2008

Mean Green 93-98 · August 22, 2008

He's generally right, but he overturned most of his argument when he said this:

Q: Would you advise someone today not to go for a four-year degree?
A: The B.A., which has become a requirement to get a job interview, often has absolutely nothing to do with what the job requires. (But) the reality in today's world is that having the B.A. makes the difference. We have to change the reality.

So you still need that Bachelor's degree to get your foot in the door.

greenminer · August 22, 2008

That hits way too close. There are some points in there I started putting together before I finished high school.

And some were validated when I started to make my way into the corporate world.

UNTflyer · August 22, 2008

I completely agree. Not everyone has the skills or discipline to go to college, and I was often amazed by how truly dense some of my classmates appeared. Sadly, in order to appear effective many professors teach down to the level of the class. This is why I prefer online classes. They're harder and I actually get more from the materials... and I'm not frustrated by the stupid questions asked in class.

There are lots of options such as trade or technical schools for people who want to make a good living but lack the skills to attain a Bachelor's or Master's degree. The average salary for a plumber in 2007 was $47,350. For an electrician it is $46,000. For HVAC technicians, $42,000. And for diesel mechanics, it was just over $60,000.

JayDub · August 22, 2008

He's generally right, but he overturned most of his argument when he said this:
So you still need that Bachelor's degree to get your foot in the door.

The point he is making is "we have to change the reality". And we do.

This hits close to me because I never finished my degree. I test out at a highly gifted level, but I just can't make myself sit in a classroom and learn about crap that I either a.) already know or b.) know I will never use again.

I have more work experience, more knowledge, more cognitive reasoning ability, and more 'street smarts' than the vast majority of people I went to college with...yet, unless I go back and finish my degree, I will forever be limited strictly because of this stupid reality of hiring only those with a Bachelor's in anything. Sadly, employers today will take the guy fresh out of college with the B.A. in Underwater Basketweaving over the guy with 10 years of experience in the field and a record of consistent success in that field.

We wonder why we are getting dumber and dumber...

KingDL1 · August 22, 2008

The guy is full of BS, good luck with job interviews without a bachelor's degree. I would not talk to you.

"Colleges are full of people that should not be there" - this is such a joke of a saying, what does it really mean? 1% or 95%.

I have known very few that could not make through college due to lack of intelligence, but I have known tons that could not get their shit together. Those that over partied and were not motivated were the ones that failed out. I knew some that struggled but when they finally put their study habits together they did fine, I think maturity has more to do with it.

Can you imagine, sorry son I think you need to consider digging ditches for a living, boy that would be great. Lets encourage less education in a more and more complex world.

greenminer · August 22, 2008

The guy is full of BS, good luck with job interviews without a bachelor's degree. I would not talk to you.
"Colleges are full of people that should not be there" - this is such a joke of a saying, what does it really mean? 1% or 95%.
I have known very few that could not make through college due to lack of intelligence, but I have known tons that could not get their shit together. Those that over partied and were not motivated were the ones that failed out. I knew some that struggled but when they finally put their study habits together they did fine, I think maturity has more to do with it.
Can you imagine, sorry son I think you need to consider digging ditches for a living, boy that would be great. Lets encourage less education in a more and more complex world.

I have a lot to say to this, but I'll step away from the keyboard for a bit while I watch what others reply with. I'm excited to see where this thread will go.

In the meantime, I'll just label you as the "oh he just went there" poster.

Edited August 22, 2008 by greenminer

Mean Green 93-98 · August 22, 2008

The point he is making is "we have to change the reality". And we do.
This hits close to me because I never finished my degree. I test out at a highly gifted level, but I just can't make myself sit in a classroom and learn about crap that I either a.) already know or b.) know I will never use again.
I have more work experience, more knowledge, more cognitive reasoning ability, and more 'street smarts' than the vast majority of people I went to college with...yet, unless I go back and finish my degree, I will forever be limited strictly because of this stupid reality of hiring only those with a Bachelor's in anything. Sadly, employers today will take the guy fresh out of college with the B.A. in Underwater Basketweaving over the guy with 10 years of experience in the field and a record of consistent success in that field.
We wonder why we are getting dumber and dumber...

I have seen the truth of your third paragraph time and again. I began working in the futures markets within a few months out of high school and shortly knew far more about the actual workings of the field than many who had graduated with degrees in related fields. And most of us (including myself) end up in fields wholly unrelated to our studies.

But how do you "change the reality"? Schools are already sufficiently "dumbed down," so if a somewhat dumber person really wants to get a degree so he can get a foot in the door, he can probably do it. If schools want to toughen and tighten things back up the way they were before WWII, they might be able to "change the reality." But who would tell somebody not to go to college if they have the ability to get a degree that will open necessary doors in the future?

UNTflyer · August 22, 2008

Can you imagine, sorry son I think you need to consider digging ditches for a living, boy that would be great. Lets encourage less education in a more and more complex world.

Why does it have to be such an extreme? Not going to college does not mean you're digging ditches.

Censored by Laurie · August 22, 2008

I have a lot to say to this, but I'll step away from the keyboard for a bit while I watch what others reply with. I'm excited to see where this thread will go.
In the meantime, I'll just label you as the "oh he just went there" poster.

I'm with you for now...I keep starting replies but I a think I'm more curious to see where others can take this before I chime in...where's KRAM or eulesseagle when you need them?

Quoner · August 22, 2008

I'm with you for now...I keep starting replies but I a think I'm more curious to see where others can take this before I chime in...where's KRAM or eulesseagle when you need them?

If anyone needs me, I'll be playing premi-ball in the corner until this gets good.

Or are we overhyping the promise of a good experience because our worthless college degrees?

KingDL1 · August 22, 2008

The reality is that someone needs to be an electrician or plumber or mechanic. And they usually make a pretty good living. All of those professions make a hell of a lot more than I make working at UNT with my Master's Degree.
Not everyone needs to go to college. And some only need to go to a technical or 2 year college.
Attending college should be about your goals. If you have a goal to be in a profession that needs a 4 year degree, then you go down that road. If not, then do not. Students spend way too much time thinking about the road and not the destination. I try to advise my students to figure out what they want to do, then decide on a major. Too many students pick a major and then ask the question, "What can I do with this degree?" when they should be picking the major based on their goals.

The truth is very few people knew where they wanted to be in life at 18, if you can test into college it is a great starting point. It gives a young person the time to make choices. How many here are where they planed to be when they were 18 or even in the same career field? That pick your destination stuff is a sad way to advise guys. Not sure about your money comparison if a person decides to stay in the education field it is usually not for the money. Telling someone at 18 they need to figure out their direction, especially trades schools gives them very few choices later in life. Not say that some are not better off in these fields, I know a couple of auto mechanics for example that were making $45.000 a year straight out of trade school, moved up to over 60,000 thousand a year. But one has torn his back up and now is looking for another career with few options, the others is just tired of coming home exhausted and covered in grime, he has recently enrolled in a junior college, with the intent to transfer to UNT. Why because most of the jobs he is now interested in require a Bachelor's degree. It is all about options.

I know several other people that skipped college for various trades schools and did very well for a while. then most around 30 got tired of what they were doing and guess what, they went to college.

Edited August 22, 2008 by KingDL1

JayDub · August 22, 2008

Or are we overhyping the promise of a good experience because our worthless college degrees?

No one said they were worthless...there is plenty of value in a degree. However, this practice of interviewing and hiring job candidates with a degree and nothing more over candidates with no degree and a wealth of experience is the issue for me, here...

I would not talk to you.

And I would not want to work for you if that were your mentality.

Can you imagine, sorry son I think you need to consider digging ditches for a living, boy that would be great. Lets encourage less education in a more and more complex world.

It's not encouraging less education...it is encouraging the right education for the right person. As you know quite well, I'm digging ditches out here, Tony.

Let me make sure I understand. Let's say you decided to open an FBO. You would rather pass over a perfectly capable, knowledgable, and experienced job candidate and go for the new kid with a degree in Kinesiology to come work for your aviation related business?

Quoner · August 22, 2008

My sarcasm wasn't a target at you, Mr. Dub (since you're a big boy moderator now.)

I actually have an undergraduate degree that I mostly consider a checked box on a job application more than anything else. It was not hard to get and 95% of what I learned I don't use in my career or even personal life. I had professors more interested in getting back to graduate students and research than they were in teaching me the why's or how's behind their power points and I still shake my head at that. It's the biggest reason I didn't pursue a doctorate after my master's - my priorities wouldn't line up with the overall university system (especially in the field I would have entered) and I knew I would get frustrated if I put my role as a teacher first. The experience is not limited to NT by any means, but there does not seem to be too many schools - public or private - willing to break the cycle.

So instead of shaping the minds of tomorrow or changing the world, I just write a blog about Stephen Hawking and North Texas to deal with my angst in my free time.

greenminer · August 22, 2008

I knew EXACTLY what I was going to do before I finished high school and, guess what? 10 years of college, two degrees later, and I was no more qualified for my current job than when I was 17. I can't believe no one would even consider me the first time I tried to get out of working shifts at the midnight bowling alley.

My own personal opinion, if you don't know what you're going to do out of high school, there are great options for you. Take a year off from school and travel. Make the world smaller, and your options bigger. Figure out who you are. Don't go through your first year of school, spending 10 thousand dollars on a life you aren't sure about.

I understand certain value in "getting your crap together", but what does that really mean? That I show up to 8 a.m. classes on time, apparently.

It really gets under my skin to see the f'n morons that have climbed up the corporate ladder because they "have their crap together." Some of these guys couldn't learn an ARM from a fixed, or north from south, but because they show up on time and never get sick for 15 years they are making 3x my income?

disgusting.

August 22, 2008

Well, there is no black and white in this...

The base line qualifications are to save the company time and money in the interview process. I *highly* doubt they would hire a person with a BA in Physical Education over a person with 8 years of experience in the same field. I know in my field, a BS in Math of Money won't get you an interview. They look for a degree in that field, not just a presence of a degree. In the hayday of tech hiring, they would hire people without a degree (note: who had little experience). Now, we *can* hire people without a degree, but it is normally from a highly experiences person with great references and who is personally known by a person on the team. When hiring a stranger, they look for a worth-while degree *and* good work experience.

Really, in a tough economy, it boils down to who you know. Because you don't have something to set you over the top (a degree). Once you have a degree, then they start looking at your internship experience, and you can then say that it doesn't really matter... since monkeys can sleep through internships and get less experience than a person sitting in a classroom doing projects.

The airline industry is highly competitive now, so the employer can be as pick as they want.

In the perfect world, the hiring party would take the time to get to know the candidate, take them hunting, drinking and give them a 1 month trial employment.

yyz28 · August 22, 2008

I assume most of you went to North Texas and therefore took English 101. Go back to that classroom in your mind. Now, try to remember the amazingly stupid questions and answers around the room. People who didn’t understand a verb or a noun or who looked at the professor funny when they said “subject verb agreement”. I can’t tell you how many times I thought to myself “HOW THE HELL did you get a High School Diploma, much less get the required SAT score (which at the time wasn’t very high, but you had to have SOME Language skills to get the score…) to get into this University?!?!?!”

I’m no rocket scientist, so I’m not trying to cast stones here, but there were some real “barely got a pulse” types in my freshman classes.

…but I think the system works. By the time I got into the 3000 and 4000 level classes, I was mostly surrounded by good, intelligent, thoughtful and hard working people. (COBA… some of you Liberal Arts guys might not understand what I meant by “Hard Working”… JUST KIDDING!) The losers weed themselves out, and those getting their degree are well deserving and have done the work to earn it.

Quoner · August 22, 2008

Jaydub - what is it like to be in a highly unionized work force in that industry? Do you think all of the political crap and grandstanding that everyone does hurts your opportunities? I'm just basing this on my experience with the dispatchers and their union at another airline.

KRAM1 · August 22, 2008

Here you go...unlike KingDL, I would definitely talk to someone about a position if I thought they were "right" for the position and had the skills required with or without a degree. I am in the camp that does not believe everyone needs to go to college. In fact, the "C" college students often end up being managed by the "A" student who reports to the company owner who did not go or dropped out of college! Some of the most successful business owners I know, and by the way some of the wealthiest folks I have dealth with in my career in banking and financial services, do not have college drgrees.

Yes, some folks should re-think going to college. There is too much "pressure" on going to college. Some folks need time to decide, try some other avenues and then maybe go back to school if they think they need it. Folks, lots of job satisfaction and lots of income available in plenty of positions not requiring a college degree! I think way too many job positions "require" a college degree than should really do so....

You make the decision...for me, college was a "no brainer" choice, for others, not so much. Whatever floats your boat. I know of one very successful...very successful...local business owner who has been so busy creating a successful business that he really did not have time to finish his degree at UNT. VERY smart guy, excellent businessman, very successful, well know locally, etc., etc. No degree...gee whiz, sure no problem here. I know lots of college grads that would "change places" with him in a heartbeat when it comes to being successful in business and careers.

There you have it....surprise anyone?

GO MEAN GREEN...BUY SEASON TICKETS...JOIN THE MEAN GREEN CLUB...JOIN THE EXES/ALUMNI ASSOC. !!!! See you at Fouts on the 6th!

KingDL1 · August 22, 2008

No one said they were worthless...there is plenty of value in a degree. However, this practice of interviewing and hiring job candidates with a degree and nothing more over candidates with no degree and a wealth of experience is the issue for me, here...
And I would not want to work for you if that were your mentality.
It's not encouraging less education...it is encouraging the right education for the right person. As you know quite well, I'm digging ditches out here, Tony.
Let me make sure I understand. Let's say you decided to open an FBO. You would rather pass over a perfectly capable, knowledgable, and experienced job candidate and go for the new kid with a degree in Kinesiology to come work for your aviation related business?

If Joe blow came in off the street with a resume and no degree I would not talk to them, that is just how it is. Option 2 is if he is lucky enough to know someone, joe blow would likely get the interview, but not seriously considered without the desired experience, or one hell of an impressive interview (in this situation some college is still a plus).

Finishing college is one sign that a person is motivated and has at least what it takes to advance themselves, and the commitment to finish things. Justin there is no doubt in my mind that you are capable, but not finishing college just limits options. You are still young have you eliminated any thoughts of finishing up your degree in the future, but more to the point of this article do you wish you did not waste your time in college? Do you feel it was a bad experience, did it leave you in worse shape? I know you are capable of the abstract thought that the article implies is needed for College students, which would not weed you out anyway.

As far as a FBO is concerned that is depending on the job, if I need a line boy or a gopher i would just need a good attitude but still a bright person. If we are talking office manager, I would need either the experience or a degree to talk to you. If we are talking pilots and mechanics, with mechanics I would expect a associates degree, some experience, and their A&P at the very least or years of experience with some very good references with an A&P, it would be nice to have a designee as your head mechanic . Pilots need a degree for most commercial airlines so I could probably find them, but again here relationships and experience are important along with the ratings I need for the FBO in question. But the aviation field is a mixed breed depending how corporate or commercial the company you are talking to.

Edited August 22, 2008 by KingDL1

UNTflyer · August 22, 2008

Everyone has their own interview requirements. Personally, if you walk into my office for an interview and you're not wearing a jacket and tie, you can forget about a 2nd interview.

KingDL1 · August 22, 2008

Everyone has their own interview requirements. Personally, if you walk into my office for an interview and you're not wearing a jacket and tie, you can forget about a 2nd interview.

Very true, its unbelievable what some people will show up to interviews in.

Quoner · August 22, 2008

Very true, its unbelievable what some people will show up to interviews in.

I've been in a recent interview where they asked me to take my tie off and relax. It was weird.

JayDub · August 22, 2008

My point of posting this article was this...we are getting to a point where qualified people are being passed over for completely unqualified people just because they have what amounts to a $75,000 piece of paper on the wall. And there is something wrong with that.

It is an emotional subject for me, because I do feel like there are things I've been passed over for because I felt sitting in a room with a bunch of people who were dumber than me benefitted me very little.

And, for the record...I'm trying to get my stuff together to go back to school...but mostly online classes. Not because I want to, because I think the vast majority of college classes are useless, but because I do feel like I will never move up without that certificate of attendance.

Jaydub - what is it like to be in a highly unionized work force in that industry? Do you think all of the political crap and grandstanding that everyone does hurts your opportunities? I'm just basing this on my experience with the dispatchers and their union at another airline.

Absolutely it does. I'm fortunate enough to be part of a non-union labor force...and I like it that way. I feel I have more opportunities without the politics. That said, even the unionized DXers at other carriers are pretty level headed folks. It's the pilots that throw them under the bus for doing their job properly and the accountants that are dictate policies despite having no knowledge of operational factors that make them/us angry.

mad dog · August 22, 2008

I think there's clearly a bias towards those who have degrees, and I think, historically speaking, it's pretty obvious why. Thirty years ago, college enrollment rates were nowhere near as high as today. Going to college meant something, because it put you in a class of people equivalent to what a Master's Degree means today. You were a select group of people who demonstrated both ambition to attain that higher degree and competence to get through the rigorous college coursework.

Today, the picture is completely different, but the thinking remains the same. The workforce market is flooded with people with, as one poster put it, dumbed-down degrees. While a college degree used to make a job candidate a more or less surefire prospect, nowadays, it really reveals nothing about what type of employee you'll get. But, because classical thinking is "degre = better employee," a non-degreed candiate is automatically lowered a rung, even if they might actually be a better worker. The industry standard has moved, making a bachelor's degree a baseline qualifier rather than a mark of advanced achievement.

The problem I have with all of this is that, unless there is a specific correlation between degree and job (Engineering for an engineer, Accounting for an accountant, Computer Science for an IT worker, et cetera), there is very little knowledge value in a bachelor's degree. My undergraduate degree is a B.A. with a History Major, and it is quite possibly the most maddening excercises in irrelevance I've ever been involved with. I have not used, in my work, a single fact that I "learned" during the coursework. So, I had to go back and get my master's degree to stand out. And, an increasing amount of my peers are doing just that, in a rapidly spiraling game of one-upsmanship that might one day end with a required Doctorate before you can get an entry level job.

One poster said something about experience being the driving factor in all of this. I completely agree. In a world flooded with people with academic knowledge, the value shifts to experiential knowledge, since it is in the minority. Used to be that it was the other way around.

To me, all of the boils down to the most glaring deficiency of all: our system of education. We are truly unique in our education approach, which emphasises broad knowledge over specialized knowledge. Russian schools, for example, begin targeting specializations in their equivalent of junior high. Once you are into high school, you have already completed all of your "generalized" education, and you begin to focus on what you will be doing for the rest of your life. That's why you can have a high school Russian pianist come over to the states and be on par with a graduate level music student. They might not be aware of the finer points of general physics, but they can by God play the hell out of a piano. And, in the final analysis, isn't that's what is important? Shouldn't being good at your job be more important than a bunch of extraneous knowledge aimed at making you more "well-rounded?"

Degrees can still mean something, but, to keep pace with the rest of the world, generalization MUST stop at high school. If I am going to college to study history, I should be studying history. If I am going to study sociology, that's what I should be taking. I shouldn't be spending HALF of my college hours learning things that have nothing to do with my job.

The poster who said that students need to keep an eye on the destination, not the road, is right on the money. Until we realize that, and conform our education to furthering that idea, you're going to continue raising a generation of students with a broad, but EXTREMELY shallow knowledge base.