The Russian Bear Is Back

[UNTflyer]

Georgian officials tonight claimed the country had been 'overrun' by Russian troops after a full-scale ground invasion.

Amid reports that Moscow forces had taken the town of Gori - and were marching on the capital Tsblisi - Georgian soldiers appeared to be in full retreat.

Troops were apparently in complete chaos as a full-scale rout pushed them back through the countryside.

Meanwhile, the civilian crisis intensified with thousands of refugees fleeing the seemingly unstoppable advance of the Russian army.

Around 9,000 soldiers and 350 tanks had been massing at a base in the border region of Abkhazia throughout the day.

But the huge force has now moved into Georgia proper, demolishing hopes of a rapid solution to an increasingly bitter conflict.

The invasion comes as Gordon Brown urges Russia to call a ceasefire.

The Prime Minister warned Russia there was 'no justification' for its military action in Georgia.

Earlier in the day, Russian premier Vladimir Putin raised the stakes over the conflict by lashing out at the U.S. as the fighting continued to escalate in the region.

The Russian prime minister rejected calls from Georgia for a ceasefire and declared that his country would pursue its mission to its 'logical conclusion'.

A day after a face-to-face meeting with President George W. Bush in Beijing who expressed 'grave concern', Mr Putin accused the U.S. of siding with Georgia by ferrying Georgian troops from Iraq to the battle zone.

'It is a shame that some of our partners are not helping us but, essentially, are hindering us,' said Mr Putin. 'The very scale of this cynicism is astonishing.'

[greenminer]

Some pre-season prognosticators have Georgia on top of the polls. This doesn't make any sense.

Wait what forum is this?

[JesseMartin]

I dunno...I clicked here because, from the title, I just figured it was porn.

[KRAM1]

I think Russia wants to "re-claim" the old Soviet Union days. Too bad they will get away with this little incursion into the soverign territory of another nation. Oh, gee, where are all the protesters? Bad Bear, bad bear! This is not good for several reasons, not the least of which is that it is clearly an attempt by Putin (yes, it is his doing) to "take advantage" of the one power who could stop this crap, but happens to be pre-occupied trying to help out a couple of other struggling new democricies in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time. No troops to spare at the moment! So, where is "everyone else"??? Don't see those French stepping up do you? Germans? Nowhere to be found? Brits? Too busy helping in Iraq and Afghanistan as are the Aussies and New Zealanders. The UN is NO HELP at all and really simply a JOKE these days. It's pretty much clear sailing for the Russians on this deal!

I recall Mr. Bush saying something about looking into Putin;'s eyes and seeing a friend...or something like that. Might I remind you, a snake is a snake is always a snake. Pretty much like the pit bull dog...really nice little doggie...UNTIL IT ISN'T and it mauls the neuighbor kid whose ball accidently went into the yard with the pit bull!

Too bad...innocent people are getting killed once again. Isn't that always the case in these situations?

[Green Mean]

This picture came to mind when I first saw the title of this thread......I was way off.

[Green P1]

it is clearly an attempt by Putin (yes, it is his doing) to "take advantage" of the one power who could stop this crap, but happens to be pre-occupied trying to help out a couple of other struggling new democricies in Afghanistan and Iraq at the time.

You say helping out struggling democracies of Iraq and Afghanistan , I say struggling to force democracy onto Iraq and Afghanistan..... Potato/Tomato

[UNTflyer]

I say struggling to force democracy onto Iraq and Afghanistan..... Potato/Tomato

I really don't think you can "force" freedom and democracy on people. Our struggles in Iraq are against those who wish to force oppression and intolerance.

[Green P1]

I really don't think you can "force" freedom and democracy on people. Our struggles in Iraq are against those who wish to force oppression and intolerance.

Our struggles in Iraq are because you cannot "force" freedom and democracy on people.

Potato/Tomato....

[forevereagle]

Don't see those French stepping up do you?

Not sure how helpful a white flag would be...

[KRAM1]

No you cannot "force" freedom and democracy on people and that IS NOT what is going on in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Taliban are areal tolerant group, right Green P1? And that lovely Mr. Hussain, fun loving guy that he was....right up there in jolly land with another "tolerant" leader who welcomed "different opinions", one mr. Hitler.

Oh, well, you say potato....

On another note...Green Mean.....simply priceless! GREAT photo...well done!

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

Don't see those French stepping up do you?

Actually...they did.

But not militarily (sp?)

I'll give them credit if the peace lasts and leads to a full resolution.

[eulesseagle]

I am afraid that this situation is a little more complicated than what meets the eye.

1. "Uncle Joe" (Stalin) broke up a bunch of ethnic areas to Balkanize parts of the Soviet Union by giving them autonomous regions. Unfairly, I might add.

2. We all know what Balkinization can do for a region.

3. Prez Bush did sell the Georgians a bunch of military equipment, including AA batteries, which, to date have shot down about a handfull of Russian aircraft. Bush, also sent US military advisors to Georgia to ensure they knew how to use the equipment.

4. Ooooops....did I mention OIL? Yep the Russians have an oil pipeline running through Georgia to their seaport. Russia does supply Western Europe with a majority of their oil and that some of that oil comes though this pipleline as well as some oil that heads to the good 'ol USA.

5. Georgia has been known to overtly tap into the Russian oil/gas pipeline and sipher some free "black gold."

6. In my estimation Russia has every right to go into their former republic and quel the disturbance before it gets out of hand militarily.

In my humble estimation this would be like if Texas was granted independence several years ago and began receiving arms shipments from China then decided to get back territory that was lost from N.M. and Colorado. Of course the USA would step in to ensure Texas oil production would not effect the other 49 states and do something about the abundance of Chinese military equipment adjacent to their border.

Just let the Ruskies take care of the crap that happens in their own back yard and leave us out of it. Let the Europeans take care of this squabble and I am sure they can do a much better job than if the United States got involved with it.

George Washington was correct when he said that the United States should keep out of foriegn entanglements. Whew, history repeating itself again.

[emmitt01]

No you cannot "force" freedom and democracy on people and that IS NOT what is going on in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Taliban are areal tolerant group, right Green P1? And that lovely Mr. Hussain, fun loving guy that he was....right up there in jolly land with another "tolerant" leader who welcomed "different opinions", one mr. Hitler.

Oh, well, you say potato....

On another note...Green Mean.....simply priceless! GREAT photo...well done!

I won't get into the "forced" democracy debate but I don't think you realize how asinine throwing Hitler into a debate is...especially when Hitler's objective was eradication of a whole race and world domination. Russia, not so much. And did I mention that Georgia was the one who crossed a pre-established border?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8051902234.html

Edited August 13, 2008 by emmitt01

[Green P1]

And did I mention that Georgia was the one who crossed a pre-established border?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8051902234.html

Lets not screw up a good debate with legitimate/relevant information.......

[Eagle1855]

Lets suppose it was Georgia the state and instead of Georgia the country... who you got in a fight with the Russians?

[UNTflyer]

Lets suppose it was Georgia the state and instead of Georgia the country... who you got in a fight with the Russians?

9 million southerners, I'd say a good 1/3 of them with guns... Yeah, Russia has no chance.

[greenminer]

9 million southerners, I'd say a good 1/3 of them with guns... Yeah, Russia has no chance.

Hitler Perdue never played Risk when he was a kid.

Napoleon "Oh it's cold. Bad idea bad idea bad idea"

"I've got a Better idea Better idea...OH It's the same idea same idea..."

[eulesseagle]

Germany, in WWI, tried to goad the Mexicans to invade the American southwest to take back the lands they lost due to our manifest destiny. The reason.....too many Texicans with guns. Evidently, it was not the army they feared as it was the armed Texas citizens. In the Mexican War, Gen. Scott asked the Texans to leave the war because Texans were so brutal in combat.

[Censored by Laurie]

Germany, in WWI, tried to goad the Mexicans to invade the American southwest to take back the lands they lost due to our manifest destiny. The reason.....too many Texicans with guns. Evidently, it was not the army they feared as it was the armed Texas citizens. In the Mexican War, Gen. Scott asked the Texans to leave the war because Texans were so brutal in combat.

Did you know that eulesseagle has an impressive collection of European art...if you ignore the questionable provenance.

[KRAM1]

OK, if it is fact check time, let's get it right...in this case...Georgia actually "invaded" Georgia first! Georgia "attacked" itself when it tried to "take back" a "breakaway" state within its own borders. Georgia did not attack Russion territory. The Russians crossed the border of Georgia, Georgia did not attack Russia. Let's at least get that point. Georgia crossed a "pre-established border" within its own soverign territory. This after intel showed a large massing of Russian military forces and equipment near the Georgian border.

Anyway, the BEAR seems to be stiring and I think this does not bode well for the world in general. Putin is telling folks, if you align with the West, this is what will happen to you.

[Buford_Julep]

Just for a minute , let's forget the ethics and legality of the situation. Just look at the competence in handling the problem.

Russia expected this conflict. They were ready with a plan. They struck with overwhelming force, IMMEDIATELY.

Compare this with the Bush administration ignoring Clinton's warnings about bin Laden. Then, rattling sabers for a month while the bulk of Al-Queda escaped to Pakistan. And finally, not having the nerve to send in ground troops.. but instead paying Afghan war lords to to take on Al-Queda.

One other thing. If there is an occupation of Georgia, you can count on Russia to send enough troops to do the job and to confiscate all weapons and respond quickly with overwhelming force against any opposition. Unlike the U.S. occupation of Iraq, can you imagine Russian troops standing by watching Georgians loot and fire RPG's into bank vaults.

[Censored by Laurie]

Just for a minute , let's forget the ethics and legality of the situation. Just look at the competence in handling the problem.

Russia expected this conflict. They were ready with a plan. They struck with overwhelming force, IMMEDIATELY.

Compare this with the Bush administration ignoring Clinton's warnings about bin Laden. Then, rattling sabers for a month while the bulk of Al-Queda escaped to Pakistan. And finally, not having the nerve to send in ground troops.. but instead paying Afghan war lords to to take on Al-Queda.

One other thing. If there is an occupation of Georgia, you can count on Russia to send enough troops to do the job and to confiscate all weapons and respond quickly with overwhelming force against any opposition. Unlike the U.S. occupation of Iraq, can you imagine Russian troops standing by watching Georgians loot and fire RPG's into bank vaults.

And after three days of this thread laying in relative obscurity...we're off!

[Green Gas]

Just for a minute , let's forget the ethics and legality of the situation. Just look at the competence in handling the problem.

Russia expected this conflict. They were ready with a plan. They struck with overwhelming force, IMMEDIATELY.

Compare this with the Bush administration ignoring Clinton's warnings about bin Laden. Then, rattling sabers for a month while the bulk of Al-Queda escaped to Pakistan. And finally, not having the nerve to send in ground troops.. but instead paying Afghan war lords to to take on Al-Queda.

One other thing. If there is an occupation of Georgia, you can count on Russia to send enough troops to do the job and to confiscate all weapons and respond quickly with overwhelming force against any opposition. Unlike the U.S. occupation of Iraq, can you imagine Russian troops standing by watching Georgians loot and fire RPG's into bank vaults.

Clinton did nothing about Bin Laden, and no one knew what was going on before 9/11. Billy boy did not do anything but let the Terrorist organizations grow under his administration even with the attacks on the Cole, the World Trade Center, and the Embassies. His foreign policy was complete crap in this area, he was too worried about where he was getting his next BJ. I believe the Clinton administration is the most to blame for 9/11 by allowing Al-Queda to flourish.

Iraq and Georgia are not remotely the same situation in any regard, what a silly comparison.

[Censored by Laurie]

Clinton did nothing about Bin Laden, and no one knew what was going on before 9/11.

Wasn't Clinton before 9/11?

I believe the Clinton administration is the most to blame for 9/11 by allowing Al-Queda to flourish.

Since we're making irrational claims, I blame every American death in Iraq on Ronald Reagan.

[Censored by Laurie]

To be fair to Walter, Di was mentoring Seung-Hui Cho.

To continue our game...

The Kennedy family's Catholicism caused the '72 Munich hostage crisis.

Mark Connor killed Cory Lidle

Winston Churchill is responsible for every Pit Bull attack...ever.

Also...I was holping for some more love on my art comment towards our mutual acquaintance. Too high brow?