Alright Gretchen

[FirefightnRick]

I see what you're saying, but I respectfully disagree. Not that improvements in athletics are unnecessary, or that they don't bring in a certain amount of advertisement or community involvement (in theory). But seriously, how many bright young minds go to a university because they want to go to a school with a rich athletics history?

ADLER isn't asking for a rich athletic history. Just one that will help instill some school pride and grow some heartfelt strings to our school by those bright young minds once they are here. Educational facilities, access to this service or that one is not what builds the most school pride and instills donating back. Success on the court/field in athletics does and like her successor before her, Dr. B does know this because I have heard her say it before. School pride is what keeps the majority of people coming back and giving back and North Texas is bringing up the rearend and it affects all of us.

I don't blame some of you new grads for not truly being able to understand it yet. You haven't had the countless years invested in having to ignore the ridiculing, the laughing and making fun of around the water cooler at work. You haven't invested the time and money others here have only to see it turn in ONE post season football win in 62 years. This DMN article should have EVERYONE here mad as hell. It's just another example of how much NT leadership has allowed us to drop in this area.

FIX THE PROBLEM!

Rick

Edited June 30, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[FirefightnRick]

This is funny to me because just this past saturday I was taking a golf class in Frisco and I was wearing my NT Golf shirt. The class instructor says hey "North Texas, they have an amazing music program." To which I and everyone else in the class agreed.

Just like untgirls' examples, this was just another exception to the rule. For every person that even had heard of NT's music program I can recite 10 people who in some way, somehow stated something to the fact of.... "North Texas Sucks", "Whoa, North Texas plays Texas/TCU/Tech/LSU/OU etc this year, your gonna get slaughtered!!!!", "What division in football are y'all now?"

FIX THE PROBLEM.

Rick

[NM Green]

Moved to New Mexico for 6 years and after my first trip to The Pit and I was emotionally connected to Lobo hoops. I live in vegas now but drove 10 hours two times to root for the Lobos against Air Force and some other foe - who cares, I was in The Pit rooting for the lobos with a big ole wolf paw on the back of my shirt! Moved to Hawaii for 3 years and emotionally connected with June Jones Hawaii program after one rowdy night in Aloha Stadium. I ended up getting into volleyball, basketball and baseball - supporting the Warriors (football), Rainbow Warriors (basketball), Warriors (mens volleyball) Bows (baseball) hardcore for 3 solid years - yep, emotionally connected. Moved to Vegas for 18 months now and have attended two seasons worth of UNLV basketball games - take friends and family to the Thomas & Mack when here visiting - sing the UNLV fight song, do the Reb-els tomahawk chant and take half a day off to go crazy in buffalo wild wings during march madness - probably buying season tickets this season - yep emotionally connected.

Now how do I get connected these programs so quickly? They make it easy to do business with them. They offered an amazing first impression which made me want to return. We cannot control the media but we do control the gameday experience. We control the merchandising efforts, these brands reached out to me and asked me to come on board. When has UNT truly done that with monster success. How come people move into DFW every day yet choose not to check out a UNT football or basketball game.

Why when I get asked where I went to school do I still feel compelled to explain where North Texas is - 34,000 students! I am somewhat relieved when people tell me they know North Texas is located in Denton.

Not beatching, but world class brands understand that everything communicates, and this report communicates an embarrassing message. From the beautiful fountain and eagle statue on campus to our ridiculous stadium every single detail on that campus is communicating to UNT students, new arrivals into town, potential recruits, gameday visitors. What is not said is just as important as what is said and the fact that we don't have a model of the new stadium sitting in both entrances of Fouts showing people to future of UNT football is shameful. How on earth are we going to get where we want to go if we don't take care of the details. Our president is in a position to make those around her push envelopes. I don't know what is and is not going on behind the scenes from a distance. All I know is that I have lived in 3 other states and grasped onto their programs which I support long after I leave.

Push the envelope - unleash the power of our hundred thousand alumni - arm the 34,000 students with hope, tools and a reason to get/stay connected.

GMG

[LoveMG]

You just hit the nail on the head PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING.

there are two major ways a university can change its image thru athletics. one, beat someone good like boise and app state did, or two associate with better programs in a conference, like baylor does. we are now associated with fiu, fau, troy, mtsu, asu, etc and those schools were 1-aa just a few years ago as we were. a stadium wont change our athletic image much, did the superpit? its not easy, but getting into a better conference will make us a better program overnight.

[JayDub]

I live in vegas now but drove 10 hours two times to root for the Lobos against Air Force and some other foe

Hey brotha...PM me your number again. Being up in St. George, I'm in Vegas at least once every couple of weeks...haven't seen your happy ass in years.

I want to go to the USU @ UNLV game on 8/30 and get to re-use the words "DAMMIT DICKEY!"

[Green Mean]

Do we all realize that they both go hand in hand? If you are sucessful in athletics chances are it will lead to more pride, more interest, more love for your school which will then lead to eventual more donations and giving back to the school. Its not rocket scientist to figure that out. While I want the new stadium more than anything, academics is first and will always be first as it should be. I hear people say that they have gone through rough times and ridicule etc etc....FOR WHAT??? Because UNT sucks in sports? Lets face it, we are not UT, A&M TTU etc and the reality is that we probably never will be and if we ever get to that level it will take a LONG LONG time. You have degree from a fine university like UNT, it does not matter what the heck is on the football field. What matters is that degree and hard work you did to achieve that.

[Quoner]

Its not rocket scientist to figure that out.

I really hate to do this because you are making a point and adding to the thread and what not, but this made me laugh and spit a trickle of water on my mouse.

I love you.

[ADLER]

Do we all realize that they both go hand in hand? If you are sucessful in athletics chances are it will lead to more pride, more interest, more love for your school which will then lead to eventual more donations and giving back to the school. Its not rocket scientist to figure that out. While I want the new stadium more than anything, academics is first and will always be first as it should be. I hear people say that they have gone through rough times and ridicule etc etc....FOR WHAT??? Because UNT sucks in sports? Lets face it, we are not UT, A&M TTU etc and the reality is that we probably never will be and if we ever get to that level it will take a LONG LONG time. You have degree from a fine university like UNT, it does not matter what the heck is on the football field. What matters is that degree and hard work you did to achieve that.

Why do people try to pose this as an athletics vs academics discussion? Not one person is advocating taking anything away from academics. The results should be that the academic image of the university should be enhanced because of the change, and donations to academic departments should increase.

Please answer the question at the end of this if you doubt me. - The most common (note I didn't say accurate) method that the general population compares academic institutions is by comparing their tier ranking as published by US News and World Report. North Texas is a National Tier 4 school. Is it possible to raise that rating without increasing the alumni giving rate? Wouldn't almost every other catagory be assisted and enhanced if the alumni giving rate were significantly increased? Although it has lower admission rates than North Texas, Texas Tech ranks as a Tier 3 along with most of the respected 'big' schools, what are they doing right that North Texas is doing wrong, because it's certainly affecting their academic reputation? Are we really saving money by not investing wisely in the main veheicle that helps students become emotionally attached to the university and keeps them involved with their university and it's individual departments after graduation?

[TIgreen01]

You just hit the nail on the head PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. I just spent two days at an alumni retreat hearing from the Prez, RV, Development, and Governmental affairs. Until RV spoke at lunch on Sat. there was never a mention of UNT athletics.

..... WE need leaders who fund it like they want to be proud of it.

Well said, sir. How do we get them??

[hickoryhouse]

Adler, I completely agree that we need to fund our athletics program like it is really a D1 program. I also agree that a student fee is necessary and will pass and be instituted soon. I do have to disagree with some of the perceptions of UNT that have been thrown about here.

Some of you here do not have enough of a connection with the current state of affairs at UNT to accurately describe its perception among students. Currently, students actually WANT to come to UNT. This university is becoming a destination in itself - not just a stop over on the way to UT or a 3rd choice because they didn't get into A&M. Yes, those students still exist, but they are dimishing. The on-campus experience at UNT has improved to the point where those students that "settle" for UNT quickly enjoy being a student here. Those that don't make a connection often do leave. I deal with incoming freshmen every day and I can tell you that I hear from students and parents alike that UNT was their first choice.

Why has this changed? Athletics, and the increased school spirit in general, have been a big part of that. Tailgaiting is now a cool thing to do. UNT shirts abound on campus. We have several new residence halls that were badly needed. These aren't the dorms you remember, folks. They are NICE! We now have over 6000 students living in on-campus housing. UNT is not a commuter school, folks. New buidlings are springing up all over campus. Facilities in general are improving because of this. Academic advising has improved at UNT. There is now an advising association on campus that increases the professional development of advisors. Check out the staff on campus on Fridays. Friday is pride day, and we wear green! Admissions standards have gone up, the incoming class of student each year is more competitive, and we are recruiting more and more high level students. Did you know that UNT has an Honors College now, complete with its own residence hall? I know some of you do know this, but many might not.

Ok I could go on and on about all the changes that have occured in the last few years. I don't mean this post to chastise anyone. My point is that we often complain about the outside perception of UNT. But how can that change if our alumni still think of UNT as it was in 1983? I know that many still hold that impression of UNT, but it isn't the same university. For these people, maybe a new stadium and a few good OOC wins will give them cause to reevaluate UNT. We can only hope so. For others, that opinion will never change. Screw 'em. But we can start changing our own opinions of UNT. That we do have control over. This place is changing for the better!

Awesome! Just awesome! I couldn't have said it better! That is exactly the truth, pride is coming back to campus and as a recent grad I am well aware of how campus changed during my, more than four years, there! And the changes were almost all for the better. On friday you see green everywhere, and though we are not getting them into the stadium as much as we would like we are filling the tailgating areas better than ever!

There is a buzz to UNT and there is an electricty in the air about it. It is great to be on campus there and it is great to see it hapening and to be a part of it. It is a process to get to where we want to go and it is not changing overnight, many of you have said just that. But if you look where we were 20 years ago, 15, 10, hell even 5 years ago.... we are going in the right direction and kids are realizing it. Now us alums have to realize that things aren't going to change overnight..

But dammit I want them to.

[untgirl04]

Perhaps you were confused when I stated 'not the rare exceptions'. We all know individuals that have labored hard and donated generously to support the university. The problem is those people are far and few between, and I am trying to explain why.

I believe the answer to each of the questions is 'no' because people don't want to make an attachment to the university, neither emotionally or financially . Is it Dr. Bataille's fault? No, but I don't think any of our former administrators is in any position to address the problem. She can. She can't magically fix the problem herself, but she can certainly work with other leaders on campus to do it. It can not be done without her leadership.

You people act as if I am advoctaing bleeding the students dry for some obscure reason. I am only suggesting that a student athletic fee should be instituted in increments over a period (maybe 8 years) that would eventually raise the annual educational cost to be about equal to what students at Texas Tech, University of Houston, Texas State, and UT-San Antonio currently pay. This is called paying the average rate. Maybe North Texas would have to dump the "bargain basement, cheapest education in the land" advertising campaign, but so be it. North Texas may no longer be significantly cheaper than the others but would still be more cost efficient than attending a distant college.

North Texas has a horrible reputation for being irrellevant, not just nationally but even in our home market. North Texas has incredible amount of spirit apathy amongst it's students and rabid disinterest from it's alumni. Having front page reports show that North Texas was not nationally competitive in a single sport only reinforces those beliefs. It has to be accepted as a wake up call.

You state that you're not sure if North Texas can afford a successful athletic program, but I think that I have been able to provide sufficient evidence to suggest that North Texas cannot afford not to have a successful athletic program. It is how everyone outside our university views it, and it is the main conduit for getting and keeping people involved. North Texas has paid a horrible price through these many decades and continues to do so.

Having a competitive athletic program benefits every aspect of the university.

North Texas has the potential to be an absolutely great university. We all know that. I just want to see somebody take the leadership in unleashing that potential.

I think you're misinterpreting my position. I'm not against any of the measures you mention - I think we should have an incremental student fee, a better advertising campaign, and an actual, publicized commitment from the administration to improve our situation. Where we disagree, however, is the timing of all that. I think that now is the time to act (we can have debates ad nauseum about why we should have acted sooner), to improve athletics. But only just now do I think it's time to act. My point was that before, getting the academic facilities (and the support of the faculty) was more important to the overall health of the university.

The examples I used were from my own experiences, but I wouldn't dismiss them as only my rare exceptions. I'll bet if you took a poll of people on this board, you'd find other situations similar to mine. Don't we even have a couple of father/son posters on this board?

You state that you're not sure if North Texas can afford a successful athletic program, but I think that I have been able to provide sufficient evidence to suggest that North Texas cannot afford not to have a successful athletic program. It is how everyone outside our university views it, and it is the main conduit for getting and keeping people involved. North Texas has paid a horrible price through these many decades and continues to do so.

I never stated that I thought North Texas couldn't afford a successful athletic program. I stated that North Texas should not spend the money for a successful athletics program until they had some other necessary improvements in place. Again, I'm not disagreeing with the necessity of a successful athletics program, but I think that it comes secondary to academics. Let's face it - academics and on campus is how current students connect to the university. I met my husband there, found many friends in my classes, and encountered some fascinating professors. The greater purpose of an athletics program is to give the alumni a connection to the university. While some of you may be embarrassed around the water cooler on Monday mornings, let me ask you a question: Can you truly say that you would be proud of a university that has a stellar athletics program but crap for academics and academic facilities? While athletics certainly brings in some big bucks, many top-notch academic programs do the same. We just don't see it as publicized.

I know, I know. It all comes down to publicity. And the fact is, that the perception of North Texas is that it's not all that stellar. That is (like I've stated before) a failing of the marketing department, and something that should be rectified immediately. But in fairness to the marketing department, it's difficult to show pictures of a beautiful campus with excellent facilities when they just don't exist.

[ADLER]

Adler, I completely agree that we need to fund our athletics program like it is really a D1 program. I also agree that a student fee is necessary and will pass and be instituted soon. I do have to disagree with some of the perceptions of UNT that have been thrown about here.

Some of you here do not have enough of a connection with the current state of affairs at UNT to accurately describe its perception among students. Currently, students actually WANT to come to UNT. This university is becoming a destination in itself - not just a stop over on the way to UT or a 3rd choice because they didn't get into A&M. Yes, those students still exist, but they are dimishing. The on-campus experience at UNT has improved to the point where those students that "settle" for UNT quickly enjoy being a student here. Those that don't make a connection often do leave. I deal with incoming freshmen every day and I can tell you that I hear from students and parents alike that UNT was their first choice.

Why has this changed? Athletics, and the increased school spirit in general, have been a big part of that. Tailgaiting is now a cool thing to do. UNT shirts abound on campus. We have several new residence halls that were badly needed. These aren't the dorms you remember, folks. They are NICE! We now have over 6000 students living in on-campus housing. UNT is not a commuter school, folks. New buidlings are springing up all over campus. Facilities in general are improving because of this. Academic advising has improved at UNT. There is now an advising association on campus that increases the professional development of advisors. Check out the staff on campus on Fridays. Friday is pride day, and we wear green! Admissions standards have gone up, the incoming class of student each year is more competitive, and we are recruiting more and more high level students. Did you know that UNT has an Honors College now, complete with its own residence hall? I know some of you do know this, but many might not.

Ok I could go on and on about all the changes that have occured in the last few years. I don't mean this post to chastise anyone. My point is that we often complain about the outside perception of UNT. But how can that change if our alumni still think of UNT as it was in 1983? I know that many still hold that impression of UNT, but it isn't the same university. For these people, maybe a new stadium and a few good OOC wins will give them cause to reevaluate UNT. We can only hope so. For others, that opinion will never change. Screw 'em. But we can start changing our own opinions of UNT. That we do have control over. This place is changing for the better!

I think that we're in 100% agreement on your assessment of the current state of the university. It's for those very reasons that I believe there is so much potential right now to make something great happen.

As Dr. Norval Pohl stated, "Athletics is the window through which people view your university". Now is the time to upgrade the athletics program. It's time to let alumni, the community, and the academic world know about the great things happening at North Texas.

Or, we can let them keep the perceptions of inadequacy that North Texas had earned over the preceding 60 years.

The time for change is now.

NORTH TEXAS, A GREAT UNIVERSITY

[FirefightnRick]

I do have to disagree with some of the perceptions of UNT that have been thrown about here.

No one here brought up the negative perception that began this thread, the Dallas Morning News report did.

North Texas and Prairie View A&M did not finish 65th or better in any sports and did not receive any points in the rankings.

The perception which that and other reports like it give is the factual perception by the public in my oppinion, and that includes our alumni as well, and it's not very good. Now if things have changed on campus that has brought about a growth of spirit among current students which gives you belief that things will change in the future in such areas as donations and alumni participation then that's great to hear.

Do you feel that a student vote to increase fees for athletics would pass now?

Rick

[russell360]

Why do people try to pose this as an athletics vs academics discussion? Not one person is advocating taking anything away from academics. The results should be that the academic image of the university should be enhanced because of the change, and donations to academic departments should increase.

Please answer the question at the end of this if you doubt me. - The most common (note I didn't say accurate) method that the general population compares academic institutions is by comparing their tier ranking as published by US News and World Report. North Texas is a National Tier 4 school. Is it possible to raise that rating without increasing the alumni giving rate? Wouldn't almost every other catagory be assisted and enhanced if the alumni giving rate were significantly increased? Although it has lower admission rates than North Texas, Texas Tech ranks as a Tier 3 along with most of the respected 'big' schools, what are they doing right that North Texas is doing wrong, because it's certainly affecting their academic reputation? Are we really saving money by not investing wisely in the main veheicle that helps students become emotionally attached to the university and keeps them involved with their university and it's individual departments after graduation?

SAT, GPA, retention rate and graduation rate reflect student qualification. Tech is higher in these criteria. Having " lower admission rates" does't indicate poor quality of students. Stanford has a very low admission rate.

NT has a low alumni giving rate. A strong athletic program would certainly improve student identity with the school and increased support.

[ADLER]

SAT, GPA, retention rate and graduation rate reflect student qualification. Tech is higher in these criteria. Having " lower admission rates" does't indicate poor quality of students. Stanford has a very low admission rate.

NT has a low alumni giving rate. A strong athletic program would certainly improve student identity with the school and increased support.

This was in no way intended to be a knock against Texas Tech. As a matter of fact, Tech was used as the example because it has a simalar enrollment (only a few thousand smaller than North Texas) and has similar entrance requirements for incoming students, but has a better reputation because of a Tier 3 rating compared to the Tier 4 at North Texas. The students, educational facilities, and staffing are comparable, but where North Texas gets beaten so soundly is in the alumni involvement and university endowment areas. The point I am making is why that Tier 4 is attached to North Texas and how a successful well funded athletic program benefits the academic reputation of a university.

Texas Tech; Percent applicants admitted: 77%

* 18% in top 10th of graduating class

* 48% in top quarter of graduating class

* 82% in top half of graduating class

Test Scores Middle 50% of First-Year Students

SAT Critical Reading: 480 - 580

SAT Math: 500 - 610

ACT Composite: 21 - 26

North Texas; Percent applicants admitted: 66%

* 19% in top 10th of graduating class

* 49% in top quarter of graduating class

* 89% in top half of graduating class

Test Scores Middle 50% of First-Year Students

SAT Critical Reading: 490 - 600

SAT Math: 500 - 600

ACT Composite: 20 - 25

College Board, Texas Colleges and Universities

North Texas does have slightly more selective admissions than Tech, but as shown above, the typical ( Middle 50% ) students are quite comparable.

Similar student body, similar university mission, similar funding, yet vastly different perception. What is North Texas not doing that it needs to be doing?

Edited July 1, 2008 by ADLER

[Quoner]

Similar student body, similar university mission, similar funding, yet vastly different perception. What is North Texas not doing that it needs to be doing?

GETTING OUR GUNS UP!!!!!

/embarrassed to have crapped on such a well-thought and researched post

[3XNTGRAD]

What is North Texas not doing that it needs to be doing?

There is also an unfortunate effect of time - policies of 20-40 years ago are the ones that probably most affect those giving rates. Those are likely to be the alumni who have the income to donate. We could be doing everything perfectly right now and not see an appreciable increase in donated dollars for 10-15 years. However, our percentage of donors should be increasing (even if they donate small) if we do things correctly. I think some of those rankings look not only at dollars, but also at percentage of alumni who donate.

I guess my point is that we may not see a quick rise in dollars, but we SHOULD expect to see more new graduates donating, as a measure of progress. Do we know whether that is occurring or not (say, since 1994)?

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

SAT, GPA, retention rate and graduation rate reflect student qualification. Tech is higher in these criteria. Having " lower admission rates" does't indicate poor quality of students. Stanford has a very low admission rate.

NT has a low alumni giving rate. A strong athletic program would certainly improve student identity with the school and increased support.

I don't know about the retention rate and graduation rate but North Texas has slightly higher SAT scores than Texas Tech. Our retention rate got shot to hell when we changed coaches so those are likely true. I can't find a GPA average for the two universities.

I, too, am not knocking Tech. I 'adopted' them when I lived near there They are a fine school, without a doubt but being in the Big XII (plus their success) has advanced the scores in the categories above.

[Censored by Laurie]

GETTING OUR GUNS UP!!!!!

/embarrassed to have crapped on such a well-thought and researched post

My second favorite Big 12 themed children's toy.

My favorite you ask:

[NTEdgex2]

Does the MGC donation count towards these rankings? Or do they have to be non-athletic?

GMG!

[GrandGreen]

Long winded commentary on US News and World Report University Ratings

Most academic officials condemn the US News and World Report rankings of universities as being bias and overall not very useful. But despite almost universal condemnation, almost all schools still submit data because they are fearful of low rankings handed out to non-cooperating schools. Many question the methodology as well as the usefulness of the data. There have also been many questions relating to the accuracy of un-audited data submitted by the universities.

Do you know that the biggest factor in the ratings is completely subjective? 25% of the evaluation is the peer assessment. Were educators at competing universities evaluate other universities with generally little or no first-hand knowledge of the particular institution. Previous poorly rated schools are obviously at a big disadvantage in this criterion.

The rating factors are:

Peer Assessment 25%, Retention 20%, Faculty Resources 20%, Student Selectivity 15%, Alumni Giving 5%, Graduation Rate 5%, and Financial Resources 10%.

All the above criteria are ancillary to the real objective of University performance, how well does the school educate its students. It is impossible to quantify how well a college actually educates.

It seems to me that high retention of students and high graduation rates are factors that could be just as easily be argued as signs that a college is not challenging. Student selectivity has nothing to do with the merits of the education received.

Faculty resources, which include salaries, class size and degrees; Alumni giving; and financial resources are all tied to how much is spend on the education of students. As those familiar with public high schools can attest, that spending more seldom equals to corresponding effectiveness.

It will be very difficult for NT to rise in this type of evaluation system. The historical perception from those not affiliated with the school is that NT is an adequate institution but hardly an outstanding one. This peer review accounts for one fourth of the rating. The retention factor is also difficult for big city public universities that have large numbers of students already in careers that interfere with continuing education because of changing job responsibilities and relocations. It is going to take decades for NT to get its financial resources up to par with a current very small endowment and a state that continues to reduce funding.

The good news is despite its historically understated quality, rising tuition, poor financial situation, and all the gloomy other things that have been expressed: NT continues to grow despite higher entrance requirements. The word is getting out.

[LongJim]

GETTING OUR GUNS UP!!!!!

/embarrassed to have crapped on such a well-thought and researched post

Yeah, but that never gets old!

[russell360]

UNT and Tech are about the same . My point was that acceptance rate doesn't necessarily mean more selective. That is all.

UNT's accetance rate is lower than Texas A&M also (70%)

According to UNT the ave. SAT is 1092

http://www.unt.edu/vwbk/excellence.htm

According to Tech the ave. SAT is 1131

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/parentrelations/

graduation rate at Tech is 56%

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2007/700.pdf

graduation rate at UNT is 45%

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2007/497.pdf

[ADLER]

Thank you for for the information Russell, and thanks for the links.

OK, now I am depressed. Did anyone click on this link?

http://www.unt.edu/vwbk/excellence.htm

Is this the kind of CRAP that the university is putting out as promotional material? It looks like it was written and designed by Cindy Brady.

UNT is the fl agship of the UNT System...

What the hell is that, and who the hell is featured alumnus Larry McMurty?

Is this the result of all the money that was recently invested in branding?

Holy smokes! This stuff really, really, really sucks! And worse, it is distributed to prospective students.

OK, now North Texas needs to both fund an athletic department AND new public relations material.

Gretchen, you've got your work cut out for you.

[Ibleedgreen]

If I didn't know who Larry McMurtry was I would be embarrassed to admit it.