Alright Gretchen

[ADLER]

The Dallas Morning News did a report this morning on the All-Sports Standings of all Division 1 universities in the country, and then focused on the 20 Texas Division 1 schools.

Edited September 11, 2010 by ADLER

[filmerj]

The Dallas Morning News did a report this morning on the All-Sports Standings of all Division 1 universities in the country, and then focused on the 20 Texas Division 1 schools.

The University of Texas topped the list of Texas schools at #4 nationally and UT-Pan Am was last of the Texas schools list at #274.

Where is North Texas?

Read the tiny footnote located under the standings for all colleges: North Texas and Prairie View A&M did not finish 65th or better in any sports and did not receive any points in the rankings.

If this isn't a bugle in your ear telling you to wake up then I don't know what you'll require. Provide leadership to FIX THE PROBLEM. Cheering and wearing a green shirt just isn't getting it done. The North Texas alumni and the North Texas community are well aware of the athletic situation and don't like to associate themselves with the university because of it.

What NEEDS to be done to Make North Texas competitive? You know the answer. It may not be the easiest pill to swallow, there will be be opposing views, but the remedy needs to be applied.

Work with the students and administration to make North Texas a Great University that people can be proud to support.

Maybe an email would make her see the message. how is she gong to see it here on gmg? Does she troll the boards? And what was the name of the article/report.

Edited June 29, 2008 by filmerj

[DirtySavage]

she posts as SHOWMETHEMONEY1890

[LoveMG]

Maybe she really is surrounded by such a tight circle of yes-people that nobody will ever admit the glaring flaw that has so negatively affected North Texas for the last half century but the defect is certainly apparent to everyone else.

i cant see it either, what is this big flaw that only gretchen can fix, money? she cant just give money to athletics. status? she cant anoint unt better with the wave of her hand. unt is an educators school and they have not produced the big donors in the past that other schools with large athletic programs have had.

[drex]

Don't kid yourself...there is plenty of big money from North Texas alumni who would give if shown a logical, methodical plan to upgrade intercollegiate athletics. Our leadership lacks the expertise or ambition to do so. Our leadership is totally made up of graduates of other universities, with the exception of some on the board of regents. How much do you figure the leadership of the unversity donates back to the university? Precious little in comparison to their salaries, I would guess.

[SUMG]

Doesn't the athletic department have a boss? I forget what his title is, but it seems like there's someone over there who is the #1 guy in charge.

At most schools that person in charge would be held accountable.

Not here.

sarc off

[UNTflyer]

A lot of things have been needed at UNT. Facilities have needed upgrading, staffing, parking, new buildings, dorms, the health center, etc. I think there have been priorities higher up on the list, but I do believe the university is now ready for upgrades in athletics.

[DallasGreen]

I have seen nothing to indicate we presently intend to upgrade the athletic budget when we are so pitifully behind EVERYONE else. As far as the hush hush quiet phase of the stadium there will either be everything coming together this fall or by the end of 2009 we will further downgrade athletics under Dr. Batille's " leadership". Don't kid yourself FUNDS CAN BE REALLOCATED TO ATHLETICS ANYTIME SHE GIVES THE WORD.

[untgirl04]

All those things are certainly important but none of them are the 900 pound gorilla that has been sitting on North Texas's back for the last 60 years.

Seriously, which of those item would determine whether people would want to associate themselves with a university. All could use improvement, probably at every single college, but they are not the huge issue that is affecting North Texas.

I see what you're saying, but I respectfully disagree. Not that improvements in athletics are unnecessary, or that they don't bring in a certain amount of advertisement or community involvement (in theory). But seriously, how many bright young minds go to a university because they want to go to a school with a rich athletics history?

Sure, you can point to schools like Nebraska, (gulp!) tU, Texas A&M, Penn State, Oklahoma, etc. They all have rich athletics histories and have a lot to be proud of. But those schools didn't attract talent just because of their football, basketball, or baseball history. What about those thousands of other students who never grace the insides of an athletics facility? What about all those doctors, lawyers, teachers, firemen, researchers, and business professionals who attend the school? Maybe, just maybe, you can make the argument that they originally toured the campus because they'd heard of the football program. I think that's a stretch, but for argument's sake, let's say it's true. But what sealed the deal for them in attending their respective schools was not the success or failure of the football team. It was the atmosphere of the campus, the academic facilities available, and yes, maybe even the residence halls. These are areas touched by all students, not just those gifted with physical prowress. And let's face it - a university is an institution of learning where all are equal - not just a place to glorify those who can run a 4.0/40.

I've given tours of the campus, and I've talked to many people about their decisions to attend where they do/did. Most of them make some sort of comment about the general facilities. Even when you talk to athletes or read their comments about a school, they often mention their athletic program, but invariably, they mention the academic facilities, or the campus atmosphere. These were places in which North Texas was severely lacking. We didn't have the space to house our rapidly expanding student body (all potential donors). We didn't always have nice facilities for studying, or classrooms with fully-functioning equipment. We didn't even have many pretty trees or flowers along the sidewalks. All we had was an inch of bird poop. These are the things that leave a sour taste in the mouths of students, and are areas where, as an institution of higher learning, we absolutely cannot fall behind.

So yes, there is a great need for improved athletics to better our perception. And yes, it has been an area where the administration has failed for many years. But the fact is, many of those administrations also failed to provide facilities and academics for the rest of the students, and that's ultimately what the university is about. The Pohl administration and now Dr. Bataille have all worked to correct those inadequacies from previous administrations. It's taken time, but they're very near to realizing an absolutely gorgeous campus that we can all be proud of. Now, if after another two or three years, there has been no progress towards a better athletics program (which I doubt will be the case), then yes, let's all get out our pitchforks and run everyone out of town. But to say that a university has an obligation to rid itself of the 900 lb athletics gorilla, when there's a 10,000 lb elephant on its back, is to me, a misappropriation of priorities.

[TeachinTodd]

I have been on here a couple years, and I believe people like Adler bring a lot to this board. I think it is natural for ardent supporters of this board, many will see Athletics as #1 (or near the top) and focus their consternations there. However, let me be one to say that I am in this for the long haul, and 30 years from now, we might not have that new stadium (though I hope not), but I will still be proud of all that UNT has done for me (my best friends, two degrees, and a feeling of being a part of something great) and not focus on some negatives.

[LoveMG]

At 34,000 in enrollment, North Texas is one of the largest schools in the nation and fully capable of addressing this issue with the correct leadership. Quantity has a quality all it's own; North Texas could make this happen if the campus leadership were to make fixing the university's biggest problem a priority.

call me a dunce but i do not understand your point. what is the issue you refer to? make what happen?

[UNTflyer]

Well said, UNTgirl

[meanrob]

Doesn't the athletic department have a boss? I forget what his title is, but it seems like there's someone over there who is the #1 guy in charge.

At most schools that person in charge would be held accountable.

Not here.

sarc off

please turn the sarc back on.

please.

[emmitt01]

I see what you're saying, but I respectfully disagree. Not that improvements in athletics are unnecessary, or that they don't bring in a certain amount of advertisement or community involvement (in theory). But seriously, how many bright young minds go to a university because they want to go to a school with a rich athletics history?

Sure, you can point to schools like Nebraska, (gulp!) tU, Texas A&M, Penn State, Oklahoma, etc. They all have rich athletics histories and have a lot to be proud of. But those schools didn't attract talent just because of their football, basketball, or baseball history. What about those thousands of other students who never grace the insides of an athletics facility? What about all those doctors, lawyers, teachers, firemen, researchers, and business professionals who attend the school? Maybe, just maybe, you can make the argument that they originally toured the campus because they'd heard of the football program. I think that's a stretch, but for argument's sake, let's say it's true. But what sealed the deal for them in attending their respective schools was not the success or failure of the football team. It was the atmosphere of the campus, the academic facilities available, and yes, maybe even the residence halls. These are areas touched by all students, not just those gifted with physical prowress. And let's face it - a university is an institution of learning where all are equal - not just a place to glorify those who can run a 4.0/40.

I've given tours of the campus, and I've talked to many people about their decisions to attend where they do/did. Most of them make some sort of comment about the general facilities. Even when you talk to athletes or read their comments about a school, they often mention their athletic program, but invariably, they mention the academic facilities, or the campus atmosphere. These were places in which North Texas was severely lacking. We didn't have the space to house our rapidly expanding student body (all potential donors). We didn't always have nice facilities for studying, or classrooms with fully-functioning equipment. We didn't even have many pretty trees or flowers along the sidewalks. All we had was an inch of bird poop. These are the things that leave a sour taste in the mouths of students, and are areas where, as an institution of higher learning, we absolutely cannot fall behind.

So yes, there is a great need for improved athletics to better our perception. And yes, it has been an area where the administration has failed for many years. But the fact is, many of those administrations also failed to provide facilities and academics for the rest of the students, and that's ultimately what the university is about. The Pohl administration and now Dr. Bataille have all worked to correct those inadequacies from previous administrations. It's taken time, but they're very near to realizing an absolutely gorgeous campus that we can all be proud of. Now, if after another two or three years, there has been no progress towards a better athletics program (which I doubt will be the case), then yes, let's all get out our pitchforks and run everyone out of town. But to say that a university has an obligation to rid itself of the 900 lb athletics gorilla, when there's a 10,000 lb elephant on its back, is to me, a misappropriation of priorities.

I see your point but I must disagree on a few points. (Mind you I am not saying that academics isn't any university's foremost priority)

But seriously, how many bright young minds go to a university because they want to go to a school with a rich athletics history?

In a word, many. Often times, sad as it is, students pick a school from a laundry list of ones they have heard of. Many, not all or perhaps even a majority mind you, fail to take the time to do real research on a school. Even those who do research the school, how do you think they heard about it in the first place? So yeah, touring the school and seeing the dorms, classrooms, etc may be what "seals the deal" but you gotta get 'em on your campus to begin with, right? When I was growing up in Denton I knew a pretty decent amount of kids who wanted to go to Florida State, Miami, Duke, etc. Why? Not because they knew a thing about these schools academically (Duke being the possible exception) but because they were winning national titles. I've even had people tell me, "I want to go to a school with a good football program because that's part of what school is about."

Or, if you don't want to believe me, call up TCU. Ask them about their spike in admissions applications the year after they went to the Sun Bowl and became relevant in college athletics again.

[untgirl04]

I see your point but I must disagree on a few points. (Mind you I am not saying that academics isn't any university's foremost priority)

In a word, many. Often times, sad as it is, students pick a school from a laundry list of ones they have heard of. Many, not all or perhaps even a majority mind you, fail to take the time to do real research on a school. Even those who do research the school, how do you think they heard about it in the first place? So yeah, touring the school and seeing the dorms, classrooms, etc may be what "seals the deal" but you gotta get 'em on your campus to begin with, right? When I was growing up in Denton I knew a pretty decent amount of kids who wanted to go to Florida State, Miami, Duke, etc. Why? Not because they knew a thing about these schools academically (Duke being the possible exception) but because they were winning national titles. I've even had people tell me, "I want to go to a school with a good football program because that's part of what school is about."

Or, if you don't want to believe me, call up TCU. Ask them about their spike in admissions applications the year after they went to the Sun Bowl and became relevant in college athletics again.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'll acknowledge that having successful athletics programs certainly gets a lot more students through the door. But my point with that was that if we'd maintained inferior academic facilities, we wouldn't have been able to keep the students once they walked on campus. I am by no means saying that we don't need upgrades in athletics facilities or a commitment from our administration. What I'm saying is that until just recently, I don't think it would necessarily have been appropriate for them to make a whole-hearted commitment, when there are thousands of other students who need facilities as well.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Don't kid yourself...there is plenty of big money from North Texas alumni who would give if shown a logical, methodical plan to upgrade intercollegiate athletics. Our leadership lacks the expertise or ambition to do so. Our leadership is totally made up of graduates of other universities, with the exception of some on the board of regents. How much do you figure the leadership of the unversity donates back to the university? Precious little in comparison to their salaries, I would guess.

PLENTY. I have said this for years - there is money there from alumni who would give if it was presented correctly, AND they had some hope for the future with the leadership in place.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Thanks for the honest reply, but I do disagree with your position. I think you will agree with me if you're able to answer just a few questions. Please answer these questions with the rule and not the rare exception.

Do students grow up aspiring to attend North Texas? Do they proudly wear North Texas gear to their high schools and proclaim "that's where I want to go"?

Do parents aspire for the children to attend North Texas? Do even graduates of North Texas really want to steer the children towards the university as a family legacy?

Buildings on college campuses are often named after benefactors who have donated a large sum of money. Do you see that at North Texas?

Is North Texas merchandise readily available from merchants in the D/FW Metroplex? If not, is it because North Texas is tiny or thousands of miles away?

Is the alumni giving rate on par with other 30,000 - 35,000 student colleges which have successful athletic programs? How does that endowment compare?

Are North Texas alumni anxious to be involved with the alumni associations? Can the alumni association afford to do many of the activities that they would love to plan?

Do the people of Denton have the same affinity for NorthTexas that is enjoyed by other comparable schools from their community? Do you really think that you would find the same indifference in communities like Fort Collins Colorado, Hattiesburg Mississippi, or Tallahassee Florida? If not, why?

More students from the Dallas-Fort Worth market attend North Texas than any other college football playing college; the numbers aren't even close with the North Texas figures dwarfing the numbers of any other university. Why doesn't the local media cover North Texas events, and why aren't North Texas highlights displayed on the news?

Why doesn't North Texas have a contact with a network to broadcast athletic events? Almost every school outside the Sun Belt has some television contract, even including the Southland schools on Fox Southwest. Why is that?

Do the schools that you are familiar with which have successful athletic programs have inferior amenities for the non-athletes, or are many of those projects funded by private donations from proud alumni?

The facts are that the University of North Texas has been treated not as a full university but merely as a no-frills educational appliance by administrations for several generations. People don't ignore North Texas because of it's lack of study halls, campus flowers, or pretty new residence halls. They distance themselves from it because of it's perceived lack of success. People are not proud to be associated with North Texas. Like it or not, athletics do play a major part in the perception of a university, and North Texas has earned a horrible reputationfor futility in athletics. (Can you name any other school that has only won one post-season contest in any sport for the past SIXTY years? Most colleges win at least something every year, some may on rare occasion miss in a particular year, but guess who is unsuccessful every year? That is futility.

Other schools have witnessed the adverse effects caused by underfunded athletics and reacted accordingly. Other schools here in Texas have decided that the way to escape the obscurity is to fund their programs through student athletic fees. Texas State University and UT-San Antonio have both recently decided to raise their student athletic fees to the maximum rate of $20 per credit hour for up to 12 hours per student (cannot exceed $240 per semester). Texas State is planning to move their 1AA program to 1A and UTSA is planning on starting a 1A program from scratch. Each school has an enrollment of around 28,000 and their athletic budget and their subsequent athletic success will soon dwarf that of North Texas. Many of North Texas' other Sun Belt rivals have also recently increased university funding for athletics including Troy, MTSU, ULM, and Louisiana-Lafayette; the situation is not going to improve for North Texas with a lack of action.

When people say North Texas sucks, or when they believe North Texas is irrelevant, I know that it is people that think change isn't necessary that cause that perception. We need leaders make things happen.

(Oh, and by the way, I do like Gretchen. I think she's a wonderful person and has the ability to be an outstanding President. I am just very anxious to see her make something great happen for this university)

Adler, great questions! I just read them and answered them myself and nearly every one was a NO. Possibly one of the bests posts I have ever read on this board.

[3XNTGRAD]

I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'll acknowledge that having successful athletics programs certainly gets a lot more students through the door. But my point with that was that if we'd maintained inferior academic facilities, we wouldn't have been able to keep the students once they walked on campus. I am by no means saying that we don't need upgrades in athletics facilities or a commitment from our administration. What I'm saying is that until just recently, I don't think it would necessarily have been appropriate for them to make a whole-hearted commitment, when there are thousands of other students who need facilities as well.

It comes down to hard choices that the administration has to deal with some times. Yes - athletics is a great advertising tool and way to instill pride in the university, but there are always funding issues involved.

Take Hurley, for example. He gets a lot of grief from posters on this board because we dropped to I-AA during his presidency. Well, the seeds for that drop were sowed before he arrived and it is hard to blame him entirely for that decision (be thankful he didn't take the UT-Arlington route of dropping the sport entirely). On the other hand, where was the money to support a I-A football program at that time. He inherited a campus with decades of deferred maintenance and buildings that were literally falling apart across campus. He took the money we had at the time and put it into stabilizing the campus infrastructure. It was the thing that had to be done at the time. Does that make him a bad president? I would remind you that he also was the president when we moved back up.

Fast forward to now - what are the decisions the current administration has to face? There are plenty. State-support to the university has all but dried up, so maintaining the funding needed to run things has fallen more and more on the user (student) than when most of us went to school. Adding yet another fee is not always a palatable option (though I agree it is one option that needs to be seriously considered).

What would make this a whole lot easier would be if a lot more of our alumni would get up to the plate and put some money back into their alma mater. It is definitely a chicken-egg problem since there is a lot of talk that a new stadium will generate pride and get alumni to donate, but you can't get the stadium without the alumni donating either!

No easy solutions here, so I'm probably just rambling.

[untgirl04]

Thanks for the honest reply, but I do disagree with your position. I think you will agree with me if you're able to answer just a few questions. Please answer these questions with the rule and not the rare exception.

Do students grow up aspiring to attend North Texas? Do they proudly wear North Texas gear to their high schools and proclaim "that's where I want to go"?

Do parents aspire for the children to attend North Texas? Do even graduates of North Texas really want to steer the children towards the university as a family legacy?

Buildings on college campuses are often named after benefactors who have donated a large sum of money. Do you see that at North Texas?

Is North Texas merchandise readily available from merchants in the D/FW Metroplex? If not, is it because North Texas is tiny or thousands of miles away?

Is the alumni giving rate on par with other 30,000 - 35,000 student colleges which have successful athletic programs? How does that endowment compare?

Are North Texas alumni anxious to be involved with the alumni associations? Can the alumni association afford to do many of the activities that they would love to plan?

Do the people of Denton have the same affinity for NorthTexas that is enjoyed by other comparable schools from their community? Do you really think that you would find the same indifference in communities like Fort Collins Colorado, Hattiesburg Mississippi, or Tallahassee Florida? If not, why?

More students from the Dallas-Fort Worth market attend North Texas than any other college football playing college; the numbers aren't even close with the North Texas figures dwarfing the numbers of any other university. Why doesn't the local media cover North Texas events, and why aren't North Texas highlights displayed on the news?

Why doesn't North Texas have a contact with a network to broadcast athletic events? Almost every school outside the Sun Belt has some television contract, even including the Southland schools on Fox Southwest. Why is that?

Do the schools that you are familiar with which have successful athletic programs have inferior amenities for the non-athletes, or are many of those projects funded by private donations from proud alumni?

The facts are that the University of North Texas has been treated not as a full university but merely as a no-frills educational appliance by administrations for several generations. People don't ignore North Texas because of it's lack of study halls, campus flowers, or pretty new residence halls. They distance themselves from it because of it's perceived lack of success. People are not proud to be associated with North Texas. Like it or not, athletics do play a major part in the perception of a university, and North Texas has earned a horrible reputationfor futility in athletics. (Can you name any other school that has only won one post-season contest in any sport for the past SIXTY years? Most colleges win at least something every year, some may on rare occasion miss in a particular year, but guess who is unsuccessful every year? That is futility.

Other schools have witnessed the adverse effects caused by underfunded athletics and reacted accordingly. Other schools here in Texas have decided that the way to escape the obscurity is to fund their programs through student athletic fees. Texas State University and UT-San Antonio have both recently decided to raise their student athletic fees to the maximum rate of $20 per credit hour for up to 12 hours per student (cannot exceed $240 per semester). Texas State is planning to move their 1AA program to 1A and UTSA is planning on starting a 1A program from scratch. Each school has an enrollment of around 28,000 and their athletic budget and their subsequent athletic success will soon dwarf that of North Texas. Many of North Texas' other Sun Belt rivals have also recently increased university funding for athletics including Troy, MTSU, ULM, and Louisiana-Lafayette; the situation is not going to improve for North Texas with a lack of action.

When people say North Texas sucks, or when they believe North Texas is irrelevant, I know that it is people that think change isn't necessary that cause that perception. We need leaders make things happen.

(Oh, and by the way, I do like Gretchen. I think she's a wonderful person and has the ability to be an outstanding President. I am just very anxious to see her make something great happen for this university)

In fairness, I'll try to respond point for point, because you do raise some good questions.

1. Yes. My sister, who has absolutely no liking for athletics whatsoever, proudly wore her North Texas gear to high school, and she definitely wasn't the only one. She'll be a Junior this year at North Texas, so it wasn't all that long ago. When I graduated from high school, about 60 out of 395 in my graduating class went to North Texas, but I didn't see hardly anyone wearing a T-shirt. I'm sad to say I didn't even own a T-shirt until I got my first one from Freshman Orientation. My point, however, is that the excitement for attending North Texas is growing. I've seen many posts on here about Mean Green sightings on high school campuses and even around the globe. Given that my first year in college was also RV's, I'd say based on my own observations, the number of students who proudly wear their green is significantly higher. And I'd attribute that directly to the efforts of Dr. Pohl, Dr. Bataille, and RV.

2. Again, I'd say this is a growing trend. My father is a staunch graduate of Texas A&M. I about broke his heart when I decided to attend North Texas, but by the time my sister started looking for colleges, he actually recommended North Texas. I hear more and more people talk about what a good school North Texas is, specifically for academics. I think that's a direct reflection on the job alumni have done with word-of-mouth (the best kind of marketing). Why the sudden spike in praise for the university? You can interpret it however you'd like, but I'd attribute it to happier alumni. I have co-workers who graduated from North Texas in the 80s and 90s. When I asked them why they don't support North Texas, their responses were that their programs had been badly mishandled, the classrooms were dumps, etc. I'd say this newer class of alumni, of which I and my family are apart, are in part happier because of nicer academic facilities. I still brag to all my friends about the spectacular rec center, and listen to my sister with envy as she talks about the new Chemistry building (I know, we're all nerds).

3. As for endowments and giving, I do think you can blame a good bit of it on the administration. But as I've stated before, that I believe was a major failing of past administrators. It takes years to overcome ill will. I simply think it's been too short a period to blame the lack of funds on RV or Dr. Bataille. To an extent I see your point about wealthy alumni not wanting to give until they see a plan. But what I want to know, is why don't they give to academics as well? Why don't they just support the university? I don't have that much to give right now, but I give because I want my university to improve, so that my degree will mean even more in the future. I give because I want other students to experience the same fufillment I got out of attending North Texas. It seems people only want to give with strings attached. That's not really giving - that's controllership and the very thing we scoff at Oklahoma State for.

4. As far as I know, the alumni association is outside university control in most matters, so I don't really see why Dr. Bataille would be at fault for this. This also goes back to my second point. Many alumni don't want to be contacted because they had a bad experience at the university. I'm sure people at every university have bad experiences, and I'm sure many of them don't donate to their schools. I just think that until fairly recently, our university has had an overabundance of either inept administration or overly picky alumni (maybe a bit of both).

5. As for the media, I'm not really sure why we're not covered in local sports. My guess is a lack of demand. Not enough alumni stand up and say that they want to watch North Texas programming.

6. In the schools that I have visited and which have proud athletic traditions, there are several buildings named after alumni. However, there are many more builds which are not. And from what I've seen, the academic facilities are definitely nice, or if they're not nice, they're improving them.

7. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that the administration has poorly portrayed North Texas and our successes for many years. I've hardly ever heard the administration talk about anything other than our award-winning music program. While our music program is quite impressive, we've also got the best Environmental Sciences graduate program in the country, one of the top accounting programs, a great forensic lab, an excellent school of journalism, and many other programs. I would love to see the administration step up and rather than tout us as a great DFW school, talk about our national acclaim. Our adds, whenever we do actually get on TV, suck. But I don't think this takes precedence over better academic facilities or competitive pay for our faculty and staff.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on most of this, and in another 5 or 10 years, I might be just as frustrated as many of you on the board. But even then, I can't help but look back on how far we've come, just in the last 10 years and think, 'Wow. I was a part of that.'

[akriesman]

This may be one of the most well thought out threads I have even seen on this board.

Since this is an athletics board, it is often easy for us to dismiss the academic side of things. Thank you UntGirl for being brave enough to post your feelings. And, good job Adler on the rebuttal.

My wife graduated from O.U. She was stunned to learn that North Texas had a higher enrollment than OU. She thought that North Texas was a small school, because you never hear about them on the sports highlights. This is from a lady that could care less about college sports. But, her perception of the two universities grew from the success (and relative insignificance) of the sports teams. Unfortunately, acedemics had little to do with that perception.

Edited June 30, 2008 by akriesman

[DallasGreen]

This may be one of the most well thought out threads I have even seen on this board.

Since this is an athletics board, it is often easy for us to dismiss the academic side of things. Thank you UntGirl for being brave enough to post your feelings. And, good job Adler on the rebuttal.

My wife graduated from O.U. She was stunned to learn that North Texas had a higher enrollment than OU. She thought that North Texas was a small school, because you never hear about them on the sports highlights. This is from a lady that could care less about college sports. But, her perception of the two universities grew from the success (and relative insignificance) of the sports teams. Unfortunately, acedemics had little to do with that perception.

You just hit the nail on the head PERCEPTION IS EVERYTHING. I just spent two days at an alumni retreat hearing from the Prez, RV, Development, and Governmental affairs. Until RV spoke at lunch on Sat. there was never a mention of UNT athletics. If these presentations had been silent on athletics at UT, T$M, TT, or even BU, SMU, TCU, or even TX ST @ SM the presenters would have been tarred and feathered. WE WILL NEVER,EVER BE RECOGNIZED AS ANYTHING BUT AN APATHETIC COMMUTER COLLEGE until our leadership monetarily budgets for a D-1 athletic program. You can talk about needs in other areas all you want but the one the public sees is a dilapadated high schoolish stadium when they drive down I-35. What other facility built in 1952 is still used on this campus? As for the point on our accounting dept., it was #2 in the state nearly 40 years ago when I graduated. It has had a boatload of endowments and $$$ from the national firms, and it now ranks worse than SMU which did not even have an accredited business school when I attended NT. Funds are there for all depts., but they will never come freely until our alums can share the pride that only athletic success can bring. It is now and will always be the most publicly visable venue of any university. WE need leaders who fund it like they want to be proud of it. Until they do the great unwashed of the world only thinks of our grads as GRUNTS FROM UNT NOT ABLE TO ATTEND A HIGH PROFILE UNIVERSITY!!!!

[ADLER]

In fairness, I'll try to respond point for point, because you do raise some good questions.

1. Yes. My sister, who has absolutely no liking for athletics whatsoever, proudly wore her North Texas gear to high school, and she definitely wasn't the only one. She'll be a Junior this year at North Texas, so it wasn't all that long ago. When I graduated from high school, about 60 out of 395 in my graduating class went to North Texas, but I didn't see hardly anyone wearing a T-shirt. I'm sad to say I didn't even own a T-shirt until I got my first one from Freshman Orientation. My point, however, is that the excitement for attending North Texas is growing. I've seen many posts on here about Mean Green sightings on high school campuses and even around the globe. Given that my first year in college was also RV's, I'd say based on my own observations, the number of students who proudly wear their green is significantly higher. And I'd attribute that directly to the efforts of Dr. Pohl, Dr. Bataille, and RV.

2. Again, I'd say this is a growing trend. My father is a staunch graduate of Texas A&M. I about broke his heart when I decided to attend North Texas, but by the time my sister started looking for colleges, he actually recommended North Texas. I hear more and more people talk about what a good school North Texas is, specifically for academics. I think that's a direct reflection on the job alumni have done with word-of-mouth (the best kind of marketing). Why the sudden spike in praise for the university? You can interpret it however you'd like, but I'd attribute it to happier alumni. I have co-workers who graduated from North Texas in the 80s and 90s. When I asked them why they don't support North Texas, their responses were that their programs had been badly mishandled, the classrooms were dumps, etc. I'd say this newer class of alumni, of which I and my family are apart, are in part happier because of nicer academic facilities. I still brag to all my friends about the spectacular rec center, and listen to my sister with envy as she talks about the new Chemistry building (I know, we're all nerds).

3. As for endowments and giving, I do think you can blame a good bit of it on the administration. But as I've stated before, that I believe was a major failing of past administrators. It takes years to overcome ill will. I simply think it's been too short a period to blame the lack of funds on RV or Dr. Bataille. To an extent I see your point about wealthy alumni not wanting to give until they see a plan. But what I want to know, is why don't they give to academics as well? Why don't they just support the university? I don't have that much to give right now, but I give because I want my university to improve, so that my degree will mean even more in the future. I give because I want other students to experience the same fufillment I got out of attending North Texas. It seems people only want to give with strings attached. That's not really giving - that's controllership and the very thing we scoff at Oklahoma State for.

4. As far as I know, the alumni association is outside university control in most matters, so I don't really see why Dr. Bataille would be at fault for this. This also goes back to my second point. Many alumni don't want to be contacted because they had a bad experience at the university. I'm sure people at every university have bad experiences, and I'm sure many of them don't donate to their schools. I just think that until fairly recently, our university has had an overabundance of either inept administration or overly picky alumni (maybe a bit of both).

5. As for the media, I'm not really sure why we're not covered in local sports. My guess is a lack of demand. Not enough alumni stand up and say that they want to watch North Texas programming.

6. In the schools that I have visited and which have proud athletic traditions, there are several buildings named after alumni. However, there are many more builds which are not. And from what I've seen, the academic facilities are definitely nice, or if they're not nice, they're improving them.

7. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that the administration has poorly portrayed North Texas and our successes for many years. I've hardly ever heard the administration talk about anything other than our award-winning music program. While our music program is quite impressive, we've also got the best Environmental Sciences graduate program in the country, one of the top accounting programs, a great forensic lab, an excellent school of journalism, and many other programs. I would love to see the administration step up and rather than tout us as a great DFW school, talk about our national acclaim. Our adds, whenever we do actually get on TV, suck. But I don't think this takes precedence over better academic facilities or competitive pay for our faculty and staff.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on most of this, and in another 5 or 10 years, I might be just as frustrated as many of you on the board. But even then, I can't help but look back on how far we've come, just in the last 10 years and think, 'Wow. I was a part of that.'

Please answer these questions with the rule and not the rare exception.

Perhaps you were confused when I stated 'not the rare exceptions'. We all know individuals that have labored hard and donated generously to support the university. The problem is those people are far and few between, and I am trying to explain why.

I believe the answer to each of the questions is 'no' because people don't want to make an attachment to the university, neither emotionally or financially . Is it Dr. Bataille's fault? No, but I don't think any of our former administrators is in any position to address the problem. She can. She can't magically fix the problem herself, but she can certainly work with other leaders on campus to do it. It can not be done without her leadership.

You people act as if I am advoctaing bleeding the students dry for some obscure reason. I am only suggesting that a student athletic fee should be instituted in increments over a period (maybe 8 years) that would eventually raise the annual educational cost to be about equal to what students at Texas Tech, University of Houston, Texas State, and UT-San Antonio currently pay. This is called paying the average rate. Maybe North Texas would have to dump the "bargain basement, cheapest education in the land" advertising campaign, but so be it. North Texas may no longer be significantly cheaper than the others but would still be more cost efficient than attending a distant college.

North Texas has a horrible reputation for being irrellevant, not just nationally but even in our home market. North Texas has incredible amount of spirit apathy amongst it's students and rabid disinterest from it's alumni. Having front page reports show that North Texas was not nationally competitive in a single sport only reinforces those beliefs. It has to be accepted as a wake up call.

You state that you're not sure if North Texas can afford a successful athletic program, but I think that I have been able to provide sufficient evidence to suggest that North Texas cannot afford not to have a successful athletic program. It is how everyone outside our university views it, and it is the main conduit for getting and keeping people involved. North Texas has paid a horrible price through these many decades and continues to do so.

Having a competitive athletic program benefits every aspect of the university.

North Texas has the potential to be an absolutely great university. We all know that. I just want to see somebody take the leadership in unleashing that potential.

[DallasGreen]

Perhaps you were confused when I stated 'not the rare exceptions'. We all know individuals that have labored hard and donated generously to support the university. The problem is those people are far and few between, and I am trying to explain why.

I believe the answer to each of the questions is 'no' because people don't want to make an attachment to the university, neither emotionally or financially . Is it Dr. Bataille's fault? No, but I don't think any of our former administrators is in any position to address the problem. She can. She can't magically fix the problem herself, but she can certainly work with other leaders on campus to do it. It can not be done without her leadership.

You people act as if I am advoctaing bleeding the students dry for some obscure reason. I am only suggesting that a student athletic fee should be instituted in increments over a period (maybe 8 years) that would eventually raise the annual educational cost to be about equal to what students at Texas Tech, University of Houston, Texas State, and UT-San Antonio currently pay. This is called paying the average rate. Maybe North Texas would have to dump the "bargain basement, cheapest education in the land" advertising campaign, but so be it. North Texas may no longer be significantly cheaper than the others but would still be more cost efficient than attending a distant college.

North Texas has a horrible reputation for being irrellevant, not just nationally but even in our home market. North Texas has incredible amount of spirit apathy amongst it's students and rabid disinterest from it's alumni. Having front page reports show that North Texas was not nationally competitive in a single sport only reinforces those beliefs. It has to be accepted as a wake up call.

You state that you're not sure if North Texas can afford a successful athletic program, but I think that I have been able to provide sufficient evidence to suggest that North Texas cannot afford not to have a successful athletic program. It is how everyone outside our university views it, and it is the main conduit for getting and keeping people involved. North Texas has paid a horrible price through these many decades and continues to do so.

Having a competitive athletic program benefits every aspect of the university.

North Texas has the potential to be an absolutely great university. We all know that. I just want to see somebody take the leadership in unleashing that potential.

In the words of the late, great Ron Shanklin, one of the greatest athletes and coaches that this university has ever produced " POTENTIAL JUST MEANS YOU AIN'T DONE SH-T YET"

[filmerj]

7. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that the administration has poorly portrayed North Texas and our successes for many years. I've hardly ever heard the administration talk about anything other than our award-winning music program. While our music program is quite impressive, we've also got the best Environmental Sciences graduate program in the country, one of the top accounting programs, a great forensic lab, an excellent school of journalism, and many other programs. I would love to see the administration step up and rather than tout us as a great DFW school, talk about our national acclaim. Our adds, whenever we do actually get on TV, suck. But I don't think this takes precedence over better academic facilities or competitive pay for our faculty and staff.

We will probably have to agree to disagree on most of this, and in another 5 or 10 years, I might be just as frustrated as many of you on the board. But even then, I can't help but look back on how far we've come, just in the last 10 years and think, 'Wow. I was a part of that.'

This is funny to me because just this past saturday I was taking a golf class in Frisco and I was wearing my NT Golf shirt. The class instructor says hey "North Texas, they have an amazing music program." To which I and everyone else in the class agreed. Then some one in the class asked him how he knew of the program and he replied, "I used to be a music major but I got burned out."

My point is everyone knew of the music program and I informed them that I was NOT a music major and that shockingly enough there are other programs besides music. I know many of other alumni in my profession that are successful, and many of them ask why I am a big supporter of athletics when they suck, and why I donate money to the exes when the exes never gave them a scholarship. I tell them I want to see my alma matter improve and get better, I want for someone who is deserving of a scholarship, not have to worry about paying for school. I had to work to pay for school and I am still paying off loans and I will be for quit a while, it sucks. Yet I still find away to donate to the MGC and Exes and I will probably donate to the Emerald Eagle Scholarship fund. I want that deserving student to have the opportunity to have the very best experience possible. It may not be a New Science Hall, but to me, it's worth much more. It means happy alumni who will hopefully do the same when they graduate. I know I rambled but I had to speak my mind and heart. Just do your little part, it doesn't have to be much, but do something.

Edited June 30, 2008 by filmerj

[greenminer]

This is one bloody snowball effect we're stuck in: mired in decades of athletic apathy, public reports of the results, apathy is fueled by reports, etc...

ugh.