Bush's Resignation Speech

[Green Mean]

I don't much think we really want the government being in charge of a Healthcare system. We still can't figure out how to make Social Security last. I was a Bush supporter 8 years ago, but minus a couple of things here and there, he really hasn't done a whole lot in my mind. This next statement is really for a different thread in this forum, but I saw a report that showed when Bush took office, oil was $27 a barrel, and today it is $136. Nice in crease there in 8 years.

I have never understood why we stopped going after Bin Laden, which we knew was the main threat, to go back after Saddam again. If we had put the same resources into Bin Laden, that we did for Iraq, we wouldn't be wondering today where Bin Laden is.

America is the most advanced and powerful country in the world...How can it not have a healthcare and social security system? You're right they cant figure the SS out but gosh its because they dont want to fix the problem. the fact that the government denies people in need of medical care for any reason is one of the more sorrier things I have seen. I freaking have health insurance but before I go to the doctor I have to think many times because I have a limit and quota for doctors. That is just pathetic coming from America. If we can all get free healthcare and good government benefits, I dont mind paying more taxes. Last time I checked we still pay quite a bit of taxes as it is and yet we still dont have any healthcare system and the SS is drying up. I have visited, lived, and have relatives in different countries around the world and believe me, its probably not rocket scientist. If a third world country can give you free medical care in need without asking you for a penny which by the way is the same standard of care if not better than the doctors here, then I am sure this great nation can figure something out too.

[GreenMachine]

If a third world country can give you free medical care in need without asking you for a penny which by the way is the same standard of care if not better than the doctors here, then I am sure this great nation can figure something out too.

I am almost certain by this quote that you have NEVER been in a third world country. If you had, you might know what kind of medical care you get there.

[GreenMachine]

I am almost certain by this quote that you have NEVER been in a third world country. If you had, you might know what kind of medical care you get there.

by the way, go to Honduras and try to get a broken ankle set.

[mad dog]

Wow... what you see playing out right here is exactly what George Washington was worried about concerning the two-party system.

Washington said of the two-party system of government (complete with summary):

I have already intimated to you the danger of parties in the State, with particular reference to the founding of them on geographical discriminations. Let me now take a more comprehensive view, and warn you in the most solemn manner against the baneful effects of the spirit of party generally.

(As I've said before, political parties are bad news, especially when the factions draw geographic lines. Now, let me just say again what a bad, bad idea this is.)

This spirit, unfortunately, is inseparable from our nature, having its root in the strongest passions of the human mind. It exists under different shapes in all governments, more or less stifled, controlled, or repressed; but, in those of the popular form, it is seen in its greatest rankness, and is truly their worst enemy.

(The extremely emotional effect of passion on our minds can't be changed. It exists everywhere, but, when put onto the popular-political stage, it takes on its most terrifying form.)

The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty.

(By pitting one party against another, you encourage friction between them, which, if taken to its natural conclusions, ends up looking like despotism. The longer this is in place, the more permanent and difficult to remove this is. People are willing to do anything to hold on to power, and their desperate attempt to hold on to that power will end up ruining the very thing we are trying to sustain [the U.S.])

Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.

(The danger of the party system is obvious and ongoing, and we would be wise to discourage it.)

It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another.

(The party system distracts the public and cripples the adminstration. It stirs people up with jealousy and falsehoods, and turns them against each other. While everyone is busy being pissed off at each other, outside influence and corruption are allowed to sneak in and slowly erode our government. When it comes to this, we are completely and totally effed.)

Call me an optimist, call me naive, but I think that most people are generally trying to do their best. My base assumption when I meet people is that they are doing their jobs, and just trying to get by like I am. While I realize that there are some people who aren't, if I assume that everyone is stupid and incompetent, I'm doing a great disservice to the vast majority of people who aren't.

Therefore, I don't think that George Bush is a bad guy. I don't really even buy into the fact that he's a moron. If someone tracked my every word, and took everything I said out of context, I'm sure my fair share of "slipups" would make me look like an idiot, too. He has principles, and he sticks to them. I can respect that even if I don't believe they are correct.

I judge presidents on the following points:

1) How well do they bring people in the U.S. together? How fragmented a society have we become under their watch?

2) Are they fair in dispensing justice, evenly to both the victims and the accused? Do they favor one at the expense of another?

3) How peaceful is our country under their watch?

4) How well do they defend us from foreign assaults?

5) How well do they take care of our citizens?

6) How well are they able to do their jobs without infringing on our rights, or the rights of our children?

That's it. And, in case there is any question on where I got those points, I would point to the preamble for our constitution:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

So, on those points, I can't say I can grade George W. Bush very highly. I think we're more fragmented now than ever, as even his own party has distanced from him (point 1). I think justice has definitely been done, but I can never agree with a system that tramples on our rights (point 6) and strays from the "innocent until proven guilty" maxim (point 2). During 75% of Bush's tenure, we've been at war, so I can't say we're exactly in a "peaceful" time (point 3). And, with high unemployment and poverty, and low social equity and outreach funding, I cannot grade Bush highly on taking care of our citizens, either (point 5).

I would give the current administration good marks in protecting us from foreign assaults (point 4), but you have to wonder, if one comes at the expense of everything else, is it really worth it in the long run? That's a tricky question to answer, because I love being safe. But how much of that is a result of what the current administration is doing, and how much of it is because the other guys haven't been trying? I read all the time about security auditors sneaking high explosives, guns, and knives through airport checkpoints, so I have to wonder even about that.

In the end, your opinion is your own, just as mine is. But I can't help but wonder when, if ever, it'll stop being about "my team winning" and start being about "our country winning."

[KingDL1]

Also...is that the wording in the 9/11 report? "al-Queda and Iraq met several times"? That doesn't seem the least bit vague. I'm sorry but I have a difficult time believing that a paranoid and controlling dictator like Saddam would yield any control over his country by welcoming in a group like al-Queda...but of course I wasn't there.

Why would you even try such a desperate argument you show your hand here. Collaborating to strike the US is not the same as giving up control. Al-Queda would just be a delivery device.

[Green Mean]

I am almost certain by this quote that you have NEVER been in a third world country. If you had, you might know what kind of medical care you get there.

Umm actually no I have been to third world countries several times. And yes the healthcare was fabulous. Infact my aunt got some sort of issue a few years ago in which she went to multiple doctors here and they either did not know what the problem was or they gave her medicine that had nothing to do with what her problem. She went to to another hospital in a third world country and gave her treatment and within about a week she was much better and just a few weeks after that it was completely normal. Dont give me that BS that the medical is horrible in those countries. They are the same as here. How about doctors cutting off the wrong leg here? How is that? F'ups in medical happen everywhere whether we like it or not. You question me if I have been to a third world question so I now question you if you have been to one. Even if we dont talk about third world countries what about Europe? They have have EXCELLENT medical care.

[GreenMachine]

Umm actually no I have been to third world countries several times. And yes the healthcare was fabulous. Infact my aunt got some sort of issue a few years ago in which she went to multiple doctors here and they either did not know what the problem was or they gave her medicine that had nothing to do with what her problem. She went to to another hospital in a third world country and gave her treatment and within about a week she was much better and just a few weeks after that it was completely normal. Dont give me that BS that the medical is horrible in those countries. They are the same as here. How about doctors cutting off the wrong leg here? How is that? F'ups in medical happen everywhere whether we like it or not. You question me if I have been to a third world question so I now question you if you have been to one. Even if we dont talk about third world countries what about Europe? They have have EXCELLENT medical care.

I've broken my ankle in Honduras while on a mission trip and lived in England for 3 years. If you want to believe that medical care in 3rd world countries is the same as here, then knock yourself out. They are a TWC for a reason, not because of their excellent medical care.

[KingDL1]

Umm actually no I have been to third world countries several times. And yes the healthcare was fabulous. Infact my aunt got some sort of issue a few years ago in which she went to multiple doctors here and they either did not know what the problem was or they gave her medicine that had nothing to do with what her problem. She went to to another hospital in a third world country and gave her treatment and within about a week she was much better and just a few weeks after that it was completely normal. Dont give me that BS that the medical is horrible in those countries. They are the same as here. How about doctors cutting off the wrong leg here? How is that? F'ups in medical happen everywhere whether we like it or not. You question me if I have been to a third world question so I now question you if you have been to one. Even if we dont talk about third world countries what about Europe? They have have EXCELLENT medical care.

Well I have friends that live in Honduras, Mexico, Costa Rica, and Brazil that would think you are on drugs, they love where they are but they come back to the States for all medical care. They all have nightmare story after nightmare story of how bad the medical care is in their respective countries. I know first hand about Mexico and Honduras.

[Green Mean]

by the way, go to Honduras and try to get a broken ankle set.

I cannot speak for Honduras but to to say the whole country's healthcare system sucks is probably a stretch. If you go to good doctors and a good hospital you will get the same care if not better than compared to here. The only difference is that you will get a statement in the mail for thousands of dollars which you probably cannot afford. And its tough luck if you cant afford it cuz unless you get an exemption for the hospital, you have to pay it or it goes to collection which screws up your credit.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Green Mean

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

From: Lee Iacocca ... former President and CEO of Chrysler... Not exactly the village idiot.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/iacocca.asp

[yyz28]

How can it not have a healthcare and social security system?

Ugh, we DO have a Healthcare system. It isn't run by the Government, but we do have a healthcare system. It's the best in the WORLD. ...ask the Canadians who come across the border to pay for procedures they can't get in Canada because of healthcare rationing. National Healthcare is broken in Canada, the UK and most of Europe. Socialism at any level has NEVER WORKED WHEN TRIED. ...why do we keep trying?

You're right they cant figure the SS out but gosh its because they dont want to fix the problem.

They don't want to fix the problem because they created it in the first place. They took money they were supposed to put in the SS system and spent it on other stuff. Do you want the same people who we can't trust with SS running the healthcare system? REALLY?

...the fact that the government denies people in need of medical care for any reason is one of the more sorrier things I have seen.

The government DOESN'T deny healthcare. In fact, if you don't have insurance, you are sent to Government run hospitals. Ask the Tax Payers of Dallas county who support Parkland if they feel like they have paid their fair share. What a scare tactic.

I freaking have health insurance but before I go to the doctor I have to think many times because I have a limit and quota for doctors.

That's some strange insurance. Insurance usually has deductables, copays, etc, but there isn't a limit on the amount of healthcare you can recieve until you get into the millions of dollars in a year.

If we can all get free healthcare and good government benefits, I dont mind paying more taxes.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE HEALTHCARE!!! Somebody has to pay for it. Let me give you a quick lesson in economics:

Free healthcare creates unlimited demand. Meaning, if it is free to go to the doctor, people who currently get the sniffles and says "screw it, It'll pass" are going to go to the doctor. Multiply this by millions. At some point, if demand will outweigh the supply. This is when Medical rationing will start. (and it will be rationed here like it is in EVERY NATION that has socialized or nationalized medicine)

The current popluar overinflated number is 47 Million people in this country without insurance. This is wholly over-inflated when talking about this issue because it doesn't take into account people who CHOOSE not to have health insurance who can afford it, includes illeagal immigratnts, etc. This is a big number, but let's just assume the 47 Million is right. 301 million people in this country - that means that 15% of the country doesn't have health insurance. ...that also means that 85% OF US DO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE!!!!!!. This is not a healhcare crisis.

According to studies, 67% of the people in this country are happy with their medical plans. So you would have those of us who like our plans, and want to provide for our own families give up what we have worked hard for and our choices to pool our resources via wealth redistribution to participate in a FORCED government run health system where there are no choices?

Last time I checked we still pay quite a bit of taxes as it is and yet we still dont have any healthcare system and the SS is drying up.

You don't know what high taxes are. 50+% off the top is what we're talking about - and not just for the rich. Again, look at the examples around the world. Pulling out of Iraq and eliminating the "Bush taxcuts for the Rich" doesn't pay for national healhcare. IT JUST DOESN'T!

I have visited, lived, and have relatives in different countries around the world and believe me, its probably not rocket scientist. If a third world country can give you free medical care in need without asking you for a penny which by the way is the same standard of care if not better than the doctors here, then I am sure this great nation can figure something out too.

Again, there is no free lunch. Those in nationalized healthcare systems are asked for a penny; several of them, just not at the doctor's office. ...and the evidence shows that people wait for care, and many never even get it in this type of system.

[yyz28]

And, with high unemployment and poverty, and low social equity and outreach funding

You should re-evaluate your stand on him based on Poverty and Unemployment. When captured through the filter of history, he has done very well on both fronts, especially in the light of the recession he inherited and what 9/11 did to the economy -

On Poverty - From the Census Bureau

When we keep taxes low, spending in check, and our economy open - conditions that empower businesses to create new jobs - all Americans benefit. Census Bureau data released in August of 2007 confirms that more of our citizens are doing better in this economy, with continued rising incomes and more Americans pulling themselves out of poverty.

The Census data shows that income gains in 2006 were substantial and widespread across all income categories. And the largest percentage income gains occurred for people in the bottom 20% of incomes.

The data also shows that poverty levels improved significantly, with nearly half a million fewer people living below the poverty line in 2006 than in 2005. Moreover, the poverty rate in 2006 was lower than all but one year in the 1980s and 1990s.

On Unemployment -

Average Unemployment under G. W. Bush 5.1%. This is a better proformance than the last 5 Presidents. Since FDR, only Truman, Eisenhouer, Nixon & Johnson have presided over a better employment situation in this country. Kennedy, Ford, Carter, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush and Clinton all had average unemployment figures higher than George W. Bush. Feel free to research this on your own. ...but the numbers don't lie.

[Green Mean]

Ugh, we DO have a Healthcare system. It isn't run by the Government, but we do have a healthcare system. It's the best in the WORLD. ...ask the Canadians who come across the border to pay for procedures they can't get in Canada because of healthcare rationing. National Healthcare is broken in Canada, the UK and most of Europe. Socialism at any level has NEVER WORKED WHEN TRIED. ...why do we keep trying?

They don't want to fix the problem because they created it in the first place. They took money they were supposed to put in the SS system and spent it on other stuff. Do you want the same people who we can't trust with SS running the healthcare system? REALLY?

The government DOESN'T deny healthcare. In fact, if you don't have insurance, you are sent to Government run hospitals. Ask the Tax Payers of Dallas county who support Parkland if they feel like they have paid their fair share. What a scare tactic.

That's some strange insurance. Insurance usually has deductables, copays, etc, but there isn't a limit on the amount of healthcare you can recieve until you get into the millions of dollars in a year.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE HEALTHCARE!!! Somebody has to pay for it. Let me give you a quick lesson in economics:

Free healthcare creates unlimited demand. Meaning, if it is free to go to the doctor, people who currently get the sniffles and says "screw it, It'll pass" are going to go to the doctor. Multiply this by millions. At some point, if demand will outweigh the supply. This is when Medical rationing will start. (and it will be rationed here like it is in EVERY NATION that has socialized or nationalized medicine)

The current popluar overinflated number is 47 Million people in this country without insurance. This is wholly over-inflated when talking about this issue because it doesn't take into account people who CHOOSE not to have health insurance who can afford it, includes illeagal immigratnts, etc. This is a big number, but let's just assume the 47 Million is right. 301 million people in this country - that means that 15% of the country doesn't have health insurance. ...that also means that 85% OF US DO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE!!!!!!. This is not a healhcare crisis.

According to studies, 67% of the people in this country are happy with their medical plans. So you would have those of us who like our plans, and want to provide for our own families give up what we have worked hard for and our choices to pool our resources via wealth redistribution to participate in a FORCED government run health system where there are no choices?

You don't know what high taxes are. 50+% off the top is what we're talking about - and not just for the rich. Again, look at the examples around the world. Pulling out of Iraq and eliminating the "Bush taxcuts for the Rich" doesn't pay for national healhcare. IT JUST DOESN'T!

Again, there is no free lunch. Those in nationalized healthcare systems are asked for a penny; several of them, just not at the doctor's office. ...and the evidence shows that people wait for care, and many never even get it in this type of system.

Nope you are wrong about Europe. I have several relatives in several countries in Europe and it is not broken. There may be some restrictions being added but healthcare is still provided.

Wow so to get healthcare you have to be a Socialist? Thats the dumbest thing I have ever read and I have read stupid things.

Ok so when you need a surgery and you go to YOUR insurance company that you pay for and they say they are not going to cover it because of some bogus reason...thats not denying someone of healthcare?

How about my mother needing knee replacements for both her knees and she went through the GOVERNMENT of about 4-5 different avenues but guess what...she was rejected EVERY time.

More taxes for things such as healthcare, better SS is NOT bad. Its for the great good of everybody. I by no means am a communist but I have lived and traveled all over the world and things are very different there in this regard.

Ok so the people that choose not to have insurance...do you really think all of them are just doing it for the hell of it? How about because maybe they cant afford it? When me and my mother had BCBS insurance at one time those idiots had our premium for $600/month....yes you read that right. And on top of that they were going to raise it even more. They called us at one point and told us that they will not cover any more medical expenses for the rest of this year no matter what because you have reached your limit. Is there nothing wrong there?????

A government run healthcare system is NOT a bad thing...it will never be perfect but it wont be terrible. A government run healthcare system is probably not for the total rich but its generally for a great deal of the population whether you admit it or not. Even private run companies abroad for healthcare systems, even they cost a fraction of the premiums here. A family of 4 in Portugal to the highest rated healthcare company in the country is about $150/month and that is not through any sort of your job in a corporate company.

I am not saying that getting out of the this war will automatically pay for a healthcare system but it surely wont hurt...infact I have never said anything like that. I just made a point that so much money has gone into defense and we dont have a good healthcare system for EVERYBODY.

To me it doesnt matter who is illegal and who isnt...medical care is just medical care. When in need they must provide. Fine people can pay for all of it what about the costs? A $5 pill is about $.50 in other countries...what the hell is wrong with that? I have been charged a $250 for about a 15 minute visit...all cuz the doctor knew he was going to bill the insurance...which in turn will bill me. You're telling me there's nothing wrong with that?

You're right Parkland is very good for people that live in Dallas county...I know because I have a few pals that live in the county...but what about everywhere else? I live in Collin County and they have nothing of that sort.

I wont claim that there is a healthcare CRISIS but there are several issues with this thing that needs to be fixed. The whole system is F'd up and this is coming from family friends I have that are doctors...they know its messed up but nothing is being done about it because of the practically unlimited power these companies have and the lobbyists. You make a few good points but for anyone to say theres nothing wrong with the healthcare system and the insurance companies here is totally off.

[mad dog]

You should re-evaluate your stand on him based on Poverty and Unemployment. When captured through the filter of history, he has done very well on both fronts, especially in the light of the recession he inherited and what 9/11 did to the economy -

On Poverty - From the Census Bureau

When we keep taxes low, spending in check, and our economy open - conditions that empower businesses to create new jobs - all Americans benefit. Census Bureau data released in August of 2007 confirms that more of our citizens are doing better in this economy, with continued rising incomes and more Americans pulling themselves out of poverty.

The Census data shows that income gains in 2006 were substantial and widespread across all income categories. And the largest percentage income gains occurred for people in the bottom 20% of incomes.

The data also shows that poverty levels improved significantly, with nearly half a million fewer people living below the poverty line in 2006 than in 2005. Moreover, the poverty rate in 2006 was lower than all but one year in the 1980s and 1990s.

On Unemployment -

Average Unemployment under G. W. Bush 5.1%. This is a better proformance than the last 5 Presidents. Since FDR, only Truman, Eisenhouer, Nixon & Johnson have presided over a better employment situation in this country. Kennedy, Ford, Carter, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush and Clinton all had average unemployment figures higher than George W. Bush. Feel free to research this on your own. ...but the numbers don't lie.

I'd say something about the exception proving the rule here, but I already have tired head. Nothing powers me down more than "I'm right, and here are the numbers that prove you should think like me."

The long and short of it is that I believe while numbers don't themselves lie, their relative truth depends wholly upon interpretation. And, since humans are fallible, that interpretation is subject to criticism. For example, we can point to a poverty rate, but when you look at the underlying "numbers" behind it, it is nothing more than an arbitrary calculation of human need, saying that everyone above a certain income threshold is "ok" and everyone below is "not." That's kind of an oversimplification. By the way, the current poverty threshold, for a family of four is about $21,000. I would have a tough time living along on that salary, let alone feeding a family of four.

The same goes for unemployment. Depending on which way you want to spin things, you can say it is better than it has been for a long time using your arguments, or you can say that jobless rates are higher than they've been in 3.5 years, that May's spike was the highest in 22 years, and that a flat economy coupled with a five month decline in jobs suggests the worst is yet to come.

Me personally? I go by what I hear from friends, what I read from diverse news sources (not just American primetime media), and what feeling I get from living my own life. I can tell you that the homicide rate in the US is 5.5 per 100,000 people, and you might say, "hey, that's not bad at all." You might even say it is part of a decades long drop in violent crime. But if you are a friend or family of those 5.5 people, the picture is going to look a lot different to you. And all the statistics in the world won't change your mind.

[UNTflyer]

By the way, the current poverty threshold, for a family of four is about $21,000. I would have a tough time living along on that salary, let alone feeding a family of four.

Seriously, if you are the parents of a family of 4 can't make more than $21,000 in America, then you need to get your asses out there and get to work. Here's an idea... don't have kids. Even better, work two jobs... each.

A great motivational tool would be to send these folks to live in real poverty, like a village in Africa or a slum in India. Drop them off for a month, then bring them back to America and see if they can make the most of the opportunities they take for granted.

[KingDL1]

Nope you are wrong about Europe. I have several relatives in several countries in Europe and it is not broken. There may be some restrictions being added but healthcare is still provided.

Wow so to get healthcare you have to be a Socialist? Thats the dumbest thing I have ever read and I have read stupid things.

Ok so when you need a surgery and you go to YOUR insurance company that you pay for and they say they are not going to cover it because of some bogus reason...thats not denying someone of healthcare?

How about my mother needing knee replacements for both her knees and she went through the GOVERNMENT of about 4-5 different avenues but guess what...she was rejected EVERY time.

More taxes for things such as healthcare, better SS is NOT bad. Its for the great good of everybody. I by no means am a communist but I have lived and traveled all over the world and things are very different there in this regard.

Ok so the people that choose not to have insurance...do you really think all of them are just doing it for the hell of it? How about because maybe they cant afford it? When me and my mother had BCBS insurance at one time those idiots had our premium for $600/month....yes you read that right. And on top of that they were going to raise it even more. They called us at one point and told us that they will not cover any more medical expenses for the rest of this year no matter what because you have reached your limit. Is there nothing wrong there?????

A government run healthcare system is NOT a bad thing...it will never be perfect but it wont be terrible. A government run healthcare system is probably not for the total rich but its generally for a great deal of the population whether you admit it or not. Even private run companies abroad for healthcare systems, even they cost a fraction of the premiums here. A family of 4 in Portugal to the highest rated healthcare company in the country is about $150/month and that is not through any sort of your job in a corporate company.

I am not saying that getting out of the this war will automatically pay for a healthcare system but it surely wont hurt...infact I have never said anything like that. I just made a point that so much money has gone into defense and we dont have a good healthcare system for EVERYBODY.

To me it doesnt matter who is illegal and who isnt...medical care is just medical care. When in need they must provide. Fine people can pay for all of it what about the costs? A $5 pill is about $.50 in other countries...what the hell is wrong with that? I have been charged a $250 for about a 15 minute visit...all cuz the doctor knew he was going to bill the insurance...which in turn will bill me. You're telling me there's nothing wrong with that?

You're right Parkland is very good for people that live in Dallas county...I know because I have a few pals that live in the county...but what about everywhere else? I live in Collin County and they have nothing of that sort.

I wont claim that there is a healthcare CRISIS but there are several issues with this thing that needs to be fixed. The whole system is F'd up and this is coming from family friends I have that are doctors...they know its messed up but nothing is being done about it because of the practically unlimited power these companies have and the lobbyists. You make a few good points but for anyone to say theres nothing wrong with the healthcare system and the insurance companies here is totally off.

Man you are kidding me right?

Talk about clueless!

To start with look up the modern idea of a Socialist and yes national health care is a big part of that.

Pills cost more here for several reasons the list is long but a quick summary because I am sure this is wasted facts or reality don't seem to matter.

1, In the USA companies have to pay for product liability insurance.

2, R&D costs are very high and they pass those costs on to the consumer that can pay for it. So typically an American can afford a $5 pill if it does the trick. IF the pharmaceutical charged everyone $.50 they would go broke. By the way the average monthly pay in Honduras in 2000 was under $40 a month. So that $.50 is a good chunk of change.

3, Many times Pills in 3rd world countries are clones and do not meet the same standards as Pills in the USA.

On to your sad doctor bill;

1, In most countries you can't sue your doctor, so they have lower costs. Not taking into account low cost of living.

2, The Medical requirements in 3rd countries are much less, so you see several Doctors that can't pass the boards here move south. Also many of the Medical schools outside USA don't come close to our standards.

3, The bill your Doc submits to the insurance company is not what is usually paid, that $250 billed by your Doc will most likely be paid half or less depending on the coding.

Time to smell the roses;

1 Hardly any countries 1st or 3rd world's countries including Canada, England and most of Europe go to the heroic measure we are used when you get old in the USA to keep people alive. Try getting a hip replacement over the age of 60 in England or Canada.

2, In countries with National health care everything gets put on waiting lists, the more difficult the procedure the longer the wait and if the patient dies in the wait oh well.

Please take the time to look past the BS and get to the turth.

Edited June 27, 2008 by KingDL1

[UNTflyer]

A government run healthcare system is NOT a bad thing...it will never be perfect but it wont be terrible.

Yeah, because everything else run by government is efficient and not terrible. Like schools and driver's license bureaus or tax offices.

Ever been a military dependent? That's basically government-run health care, and let me tell you... it sucks. When I was 13 years old I sat in a waiting room at the Navy hospital in Norfolk for 6 hours with 103 fever and vomiting. When my brother was 9 he jumped out of a tree and impaled his foot on an old piece of rebar sticking out of the ground (this was in GTMO). It took the Navy ambulance, get this.... just short of TWO HOURS to arrive.

Tell you what... show me a health care plan where Senators, Governors, and all the other political elite are forced to participate like the rest of us, and then I might consider it. Until then, I will be happy paying my insurance premiums, pay the small co-payments, and having the freedom to choose my own doctor and get the best medical care in the world.

[Green Mean]

Man you are kidding me right?

Talk about clueless!

To start with look up the modern idea of a Socialist and yes national health care is a big part of that.

Pills cost more here for several reasons the list is long but a quick summary because I am sure this is wasted facts or reality don't seem to matter.

1, In the USA companies have to pay for product liability insurance.

2, R&D costs are very high and they pass those costs on to the consumer that can pay for it. So typically an American can afford a $5 pill if it does the trick. IF the pharmaceutical charged everyone $.50 they would go broke. By the way the average monthly pay in Honduras in 2000 was under $40 a month. So that $.50 is a good chunk of change.

3, Many times Pills in 3rd world countries are clones and do not meet the same standards as Pills in the USA.

On to your sad doctor bill;

1, In most countries you can't sue your doctor, so they have lower costs. Not taking into account low cost of living.

2, The Medical requirements in 3rd countries are much less, so you see several Doctors that can't pass the boards here move south. Also many of the Medical schools outside USA don't come close to our standards.

3, The bill your Doc submits to the insurance company is not what is usually paid, that $250 billed by your Doc will most likely be paid half or less depending on the coding.

Time to smell the roses;

1 Hardly any countries 1st or 3rd world's countries including Canada, England and most of Europe go to the heroic measure we are used when you get old in the USA to keep people alive. Try getting a hip replacement over the age of 60 in England or Canada.

2, In countries with National health care everything gets put on waiting lists, the more difficult the procedure the longer the wait and if the patient dies in the wait oh well.

Please take the time to look past the BS and get to the turth.

Wow you're calling me clueless?

Well I reciprocate that right back at you because I know first hand of several other places outside this country that can make it work.

If you want to justify all of those reasons that they have to be right then thats fine....I guess talking to you is like a wall...no matter what you say it will just sit there and you can keep drinking the cool aid the media here feeds you.

Dude I have smelled the roses...I am not talking out of my ass. I am saying all these things because I know and have actually seen these things happen in front of me. Again if you want to call me clueless thats fine, its you who are looking like a fool. I have family in England and Canada and none of them have had any problems whatsoever and they have been through heart surgeries etc.

You are calling whatever I say BS but it seems that whatever is going on here is correct and I have no validity to what I say? How many countries have you visited if any? Have you traveled around the world like I have? Maybe you have maybe you havent but it sure seems that you're a bit ignorant on this subject.

I never said any system is perfect...are there flaws? Absolutely but to say that the healthcare system here is just that much better than other countries especially in Europe....You sound completely idiotic.

As far as old people are concerned...In Europe there several different programs to give the elders benefits such as free housing, healthcare etc. You make it sound like we treat old people like kings which is the quite not the case...tho I do admit that when treating for the elderly we are pretty good in that regard all things considered.

The states have great medical schools...I am not denying that...you make it sound like the whole world comes to America for healthcare. There are only 300 million people in this world out of 6+ billion....I am sure people are living just fine with other countries' healthcare system.

As far as the pills being to the standards of America....actually the cheaper ones are not clones. You can buy the original and real Zyrtec, Zocor and god knows whatever other medicine you want practically over the counter for a fraction of the price and they are not clones. They do have generics for them too which you have the option to buy but thats not different from buying Tylenol and the Equate version from Wal Mart.

Most of the medicines they do have that are not "approved" by the administration here are generally the ones that may have been approved much earlier or but for some odd reason its not getting passed here but has been long been successful in Europe years before.

Dont give me this crap that what I am talking is BS because most of your talk sounds exactly like you see when insurance companies execs are getting interviewed.

[Green Mean]

Yeah, because everything else run by government is efficient and not terrible. Like schools and driver's license bureaus or tax offices.

Ever been a military dependent? That's basically government-run health care, and let me tell you... it sucks. When I was 13 years old I sat in a waiting room at the Navy hospital in Norfolk for 6 hours with 103 fever and vomiting. When my brother was 9 he jumped out of a tree and impaled his foot on an old piece of rebar sticking out of the ground (this was in GTMO). It took the Navy ambulance, get this.... just short of TWO HOURS to arrive.

Tell you what... show me a health care plan where Senators, Governors, and all the other political elite are forced to participate like the rest of us, and then I might consider it. Until then, I will be happy paying my insurance premiums, pay the small co-payments, and having the freedom to choose my own doctor and get the best medical care in the world.

UNTFlyer,

You make a lot of good points but like I have said before no system is perfect. Most other countries do have private healthcare insurance companies and you can get pretty much the same type of quality and attention as you would here.

I am completely for paying premiums...thats not even the biggest issue. For me personally...how do you expect to pay a $600/month premium, on top of you getting bills after each and every doctors visit? Is it just me or is there something not right about that?

God forbid I hope no one ever goes through this but as you get older and if you get sick alot, or have a few surgeries or have to go to the doctor a lot that premium will skyrocket and the insurance company is going to take you up to your neck. Atleast thats whats happened based on my experiences along with my mother.

The U.S. has great medical care...definitely not denying that but there are comparable systems and doctors in other places that are much cheaper. When you go into a surgery there is still the possibility of the doc F'ing up or the fact that you condition wont get better....its the same thing elsewhere. And you can generally choose your doctor if you want in other countries.

[Green Mean]

Seriously, if you are the parents of a family of 4 can't make more than $21,000 in America, then you need to get your asses out there and get to work. Here's an idea... don't have kids. Even better, work two jobs... each.

A great motivational tool would be to send these folks to live in real poverty, like a village in Africa or a slum in India. Drop them off for a month, then bring them back to America and see if they can make the most of the opportunities they take for granted.

From the outside that thinking makes sense...I used to think that too but its a really complicated issue. If everybody was a millionaire then a million bucks wouldnt be work anything.

I agree that a lot of people can take this country for granted but you cant throw these people away...they are still a part of our society and I feel that we should do the best we can to help them. Yes many will say oh theres no hope for them...maybe so but we dont know that. Believe it or not...people that are in poverty getting jobs is not as easy as many people think. It is actually harder for them to get a job than a lot of other people. While I agree with what you saying...unfortunately I am just not sure if that would work for most or everyone.

[FirefightnRick]

Green Mean

the fact that the government denies people in need of medical care for any reason is one of the more sorrier things I have seen.

What? You know what I did between the hours of Midnight and 7 a.m. on the past two nights of June 22nd and 25th while your were more than likely home safely tucked into bed? Picking up wine-os, crack addicts, drug dealers who just got the $hit beat out of them by their customers and prostitutes up off the streets and out from under every kind of crevice that the lowest of foul stinking human filth could come from and loaded them into an Am-B-Lance so they could be taken to the county hospital to be stitched up, sobered up and sent on their way at your expense? I don't see anyone getting denied medical care. If it is happening I haven't seen it.

Rick

Edited June 27, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[KingDL1]

Wow you're calling me clueless?

Well I reciprocate that right back at you because I know first hand of several other places outside this country that can make it work.

If you want to justify all of those reasons that they have to be right then thats fine....I guess talking to you is like a wall...no matter what you say it will just sit there and you can keep drinking the cool aid the media here feeds you.

Dude I have smelled the roses...I am not talking out of my ass. I am saying all these things because I know and have actually seen these things happen in front of me. Again if you want to call me clueless thats fine, its you who are looking like a fool. I have family in England and Canada and none of them have had any problems whatsoever and they have been through heart surgeries etc.

You are calling whatever I say BS but it seems that whatever is going on here is correct and I have no validity to what I say? How many countries have you visited if any? Have you traveled around the world like I have? Maybe you have maybe you havent but it sure seems that you're a bit ignorant on this subject.

I never said any system is perfect...are there flaws? Absolutely but to say that the healthcare system here is just that much better than other countries especially in Europe....You sound completely idiotic.

As far as old people are concerned...In Europe there several different programs to give the elders benefits such as free housing, healthcare etc. You make it sound like we treat old people like kings which is the quite not the case...tho I do admit that when treating for the elderly we are pretty good in that regard all things considered.

The states have great medical schools...I am not denying that...you make it sound like the whole world comes to America for healthcare. There are only 300 million people in this world out of 6+ billion....I am sure people are living just fine with other countries' healthcare system.

As far as the pills being to the standards of America....actually the cheaper ones are not clones. You can buy the original and real Zyrtec, Zocor and god knows whatever other medicine you want practically over the counter for a fraction of the price and they are not clones. They do have generics for them too which you have the option to buy but thats not different from buying Tylenol and the Equate version from Wal Mart.

Most of the medicines they do have that are not "approved" by the administration here are generally the ones that may have been approved much earlier or but for some odd reason its not getting passed here but has been long been successful in Europe years before.

Dont give me this crap that what I am talking is BS because most of your talk sounds exactly like you see when insurance companies execs are getting interviewed.

Yup still calling you clueless, though your comments to Flyer seem to be softening your stance.

I would say from my experience you just may be talking out your ass! Now maybe you should really talk to your family in Canada, Europe, and England, I am pretty sure your perception is off. Maybe they are imaginary family, especially in Canada. But your comments are horribly misinformed.

I spent three hours talking to an Oral surgeon from Canada on a jet ride from Bonaire to Miami, he explained to in great depth how bad the National Heath care program sucked in Canada, not only does the Government cut corners on costs like high tech modern machines, they create incredibly long waiting lists. He explained to me that he would have to wait nine months to a year to get major work done in his mouth the way the Canadian system is set up. He simply said if you have the money go to the States and get it done. He said if you are old and need a hip replacement the wait can be years, and in many cases the patient dies before they can get the replacement. There is some quality of life. A childhood friend of mine now one of the leading Colorectal Surgeons in the country that has been published dozens and dozens of times. His father actually did the first successful heart transplant in Dallas. He has spent the last several years at the Cleveland clinic, he has great insight into this issue. But my favorite stories are of the vast numbers of Canadians that come over to the USA for treatment and surgeries. Funny how that many people would give up "free and all" health care to pay out the ass for good old American medical care. You don't find that tiniest bit curios?

I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night!

But what do two people know? Those that know me on this board know I travel quite a bit abroad. I spend about 9 days a year Whistler BC snow skiing every year, it is amazing how many people you meet in the Gondola's there. The average ride on the Gondolas are about 20 minutes, lots of professional people snow skiing. I met several MDs, Dentists, and other medical professionals, to me it just seems natural to ask them about the Nationalized system they have. Funny thing is they have all said the same thing so far as the Oral surgeon I met on the airplane. They all hop across the border to get any serious medical treatment they may need. In addition to Canadians there are quite a few Europeans skiing there also, some the English would just go on and on about how the government has screwed up the heath care in Great Britain, I have heard the hip replacement story a few times from the English.

Now in the summer I scuba dive in the tropic 2-3 weeks a year Mexico, Central America, and through out the Gulf of Mexico. I get to meet and spend all kinds of time with people from around the world. The third world counties are not even close to the USA in quality or standards. Pretty much any place south of our borders if a person has the means they will come to the US for heath care. But why I know these 3rd world countries lack quality health care, is best examined with DAN (Divers Alert Network). DAN provides Diver insurance that covers a Diver both abroad and domestic in case of dive related injury. If you are abroad they will get you home as soon as possible because or the poor medical practices in 3rd world countries. Now DAN has whole dive medicine devision that trains and briefs doctors on dive medicine. My Uncle a Doctor that like to specialize in sports medicine goes to a few of the DAN training seminars a year, and he has story after story of why not to have any medical care in Mexico, Central America, or South America. Basically if you can help it get back to the USA to get treatment.

Now randomly I go to eastern Europe to buy Jets places like Bulgaria, I found some good deals on some old MIG training jets. But traveling that far across Europe exposed me to even more people that I asked questions of, the ones with national health care did not care for it.

Now combining my first hand knowledge with what I been told first hand, I have yet to hear the claims you are making. Plus I do a good bit of reading on the topic, plenty of articles have been written on the flood of patients that travel to the USA from Canada. Yet you call me "completely idiotic".

As far as the pills being to the standards of America....actually the cheaper ones are not clones. You can buy the original and real Zyrtec, Zocor and god knows whatever other medicine you want practically over the counter for a fraction of the price and they are not clones. They do have generics for them too which you have the option to buy but thats not different from buying Tylenol and the Equate version from Wal Mart.

Don't kid yourself on this one there are plenty of crappy clones in 3rd world nations that are not even close to the quality of those in the US ask a friendly doctor if you know one. If you look back I did not say every thing was a clone. I said that the R&D has to get paid for in many cases and that is why the prices are high here. Like I said Hourdas had a month average income of under $40.00 a week or less. Thats 8 bucks a day! Think about how much more 50 cents means to a person in this situation. Edited June 27, 2008 by KingDL1

[FirefightnRick]

On Unemployment -

Average Unemployment under G. W. Bush 5.1%. This is a better proformance than the last 5 Presidents. Since FDR, only Truman, Eisenhouer, Nixon & Johnson have presided over a better employment situation in this country. Kennedy, Ford, Carter, Reagan, G.H.W. Bush and Clinton all had average unemployment figures higher than George W. Bush. Feel free to research this on your own. ...but the numbers don't lie.

Beat me to it.

Good post.

Rick

[FirefightnRick]

How about because maybe they cant afford it?

As pertaining to a conversation I had at about 3 a.m. June 25th from my previous post to you:

Me: So why can't you walk back up to the street from under here(Riverside bridge over the Trinity River north of the 1800 Block of E. Lancaster)?

wine-o: Because I cant walk.

Me: Yes you've said that already. Why can't you walk, what is wrong with you other than the fact that you had all of that to drink(Pointing to several empty 40's)?

wine-o: I have to have knee surgery tomorrow, they are taking these pins out of my knee and replacing them for me.

Me: Where are you to have this done?

wine-o: JPS(John Petersmith county hospitacl).

And sure as can be, when the ambulance crew showed up they recognized the guy because they had run on him earlier in the week. He had 9 pins placed in his knee from an earlier injury and knew about him being scheduled for another surgery later on. We loaded him up and off he went, at the tax payers expense. One thing is for sure, these folks never have money to eat on, pay rent, pay for a car or a bus token or anything else many other folks can afford. But they ALWAYS have money for their Beer/Wine, Cigarettes and Crack. ALWAYS.

Rick

Edited June 27, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[untgirl04]

Wow you're calling me clueless?

Well I reciprocate that right back at you because I know first hand of several other places outside this country that can make it work.

If you want to justify all of those reasons that they have to be right then thats fine....I guess talking to you is like a wall...no matter what you say it will just sit there and you can keep drinking the cool aid the media here feeds you.

Dude I have smelled the roses...I am not talking out of my ass. I am saying all these things because I know and have actually seen these things happen in front of me. Again if you want to call me clueless thats fine, its you who are looking like a fool. I have family in England and Canada and none of them have had any problems whatsoever and they have been through heart surgeries etc.

You are calling whatever I say BS but it seems that whatever is going on here is correct and I have no validity to what I say? How many countries have you visited if any? Have you traveled around the world like I have? Maybe you have maybe you havent but it sure seems that you're a bit ignorant on this subject.

I never said any system is perfect...are there flaws? Absolutely but to say that the healthcare system here is just that much better than other countries especially in Europe....You sound completely idiotic.

As far as old people are concerned...In Europe there several different programs to give the elders benefits such as free housing, healthcare etc. You make it sound like we treat old people like kings which is the quite not the case...tho I do admit that when treating for the elderly we are pretty good in that regard all things considered.

The states have great medical schools...I am not denying that...you make it sound like the whole world comes to America for healthcare. There are only 300 million people in this world out of 6+ billion....I am sure people are living just fine with other countries' healthcare system.

As far as the pills being to the standards of America....actually the cheaper ones are not clones. You can buy the original and real Zyrtec, Zocor and god knows whatever other medicine you want practically over the counter for a fraction of the price and they are not clones. They do have generics for them too which you have the option to buy but thats not different from buying Tylenol and the Equate version from Wal Mart.

Most of the medicines they do have that are not "approved" by the administration here are generally the ones that may have been approved much earlier or but for some odd reason its not getting passed here but has been long been successful in Europe years before.

Dont give me this crap that what I am talking is BS because most of your talk sounds exactly like you see when insurance companies execs are getting interviewed.

Yes, you can buy cheaper drugs in other countries because most other countries do not have as strenuous regulations on what gets bought and sold. You might get the 'real' Zyrtec or Zocor, but you'd have to think carefully about taking it. Can you be sure that the prescription strength is accurate? The major problem with cheaper meds is that there is often less accountability. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying our system is perfect. I've had to take medications that were $300 per shot, and had to take two shots per day. (Although, my healthcare paid for all but $10 of a 14 day supply.) The FDA is fanatical in enforcing safety with drugs. Given past issues with Phen-Phen (and to some degree Bacall), I can't say that everything is safe here, but it's certainly better than most places. But that's also why drugs are so much more expensive here. I can't tell you how many adds I've seen on TV about law firms wanting to represent people who have taken all kinds of drugs. There's a lot of liability in manufacturing and selling drugs in the United States.