If You Had The Power To Impose

UNTflyer · May 29, 2008

People aren't going to leave school, you are going to lose some potential future donors if you impose a fee on them for something they don't want.

That's fine.

Lose 3 or 4 years of students as potential donors, but gain the next 20-30 years of students who have a great time in the new stadium and with increased funding actually donate to a much improved athletics department. It's a no-brainer.

NT1978 · May 29, 2008

I know that this will be hard for some of you to believe, but supporting athletics does not go hand in hand with alumni support. Most of the biggest donors support business, music, journalism and even library sciences. So if you want to alienate students that don’t support the athletic programs on the pretense that they will not give back to the University anyway, you need a reality check.

Better yet, open up your wallet and increase your support to the University and designate it towards athletics. There is an account just waiting for your contribution to help build the new stadium. Don’t wait to be asked, just give.

May 29, 2008

The only way you are going to change the current on-campus climate is by culling the third group. It is a difficult battle that will require some significant gut checks by the administration. However, I do not see how you can hope to have a "big school" mentality as long as your policies are dictated by those who hate you. They are not happy, they will never be happy. It is their business to not be happy, and trying to change that is a waste of time and resources.
Now, what better way to rid yourself of this poison than by charging them with a fee benefitting the thing they hate the most? Worst case, they keep complaining the same as they always did, and pay the fee to keep their social group together. Best case, they pick up and leave for a commuter school.
The group you are trying to sway is group 2. The good news is that they are the largest group and have open minds. If North Texas were to pull a Boise State, and have a 13-0 season complete with a Fiesta Bowl win, I think you'd see a MUCH different North Texas. You are still seeing the reward we've earned from an 8-5 season and a New Orleans bowl win. Imagine if we had something on the order of Boise State? Group 2 is where you can find the most potential donors, the most potential alumni, and the future Mean Green Club. And they can be won, with the help of a student fee.

Wow I could hardly disagree with your statement more. Just because a portion of students don't care about athletics doesn't mean you intentionally want to run them off. As pointed out, those students might find their niche somewhere else at UNT and be a donor to another area later. A university gets a boost in its 'rankings' by the percentage of alumni that donate to the university. If alumni donate to other areas, it helps UNT overall. As we have all pointed out, a donation to athletics helps the university overall. But the reverse is also true. Donations to UNT in other areas can also help athletics, as the reputation of UNT or a specific area of UNT (like an academic area) can help with recruiting and the overall prestige of the university.

I do agree that the Group 2 students are the ones you need to sway. If some of your Group 3 students leave in disgust, then ok. But the venom in your statement is unwarranted. No need to intentionally run off any group.

FirefightnRick · May 29, 2008

Maybe someone who has the time can compare a UNT athletics fee increase, or lack of, to the increase other Texas schools are having in athletics fees (if any).

After just doing a quick search.

In 2002 A&M increased their fees 13%, tU increased their fees 6%.

2006, North Texas BOR votes to raise fees 5%, comparatively less than other state university increases.

May 15th, 2008, U of H raises fees 6%, $185 per 12 hour semester.

UT to increase fees to 9%, A&M to increase above cap as well.

Six University of Texas System Campuses May Bust Tuition Barrier

A&M regents raise tuition in 2008.

Rick

Edited May 29, 2008 by FirefightnRick

Stan R · May 29, 2008

Rick looks like those are not related to Athletics.

FirefightnRick · May 29, 2008

Rick looks like those are not related to Athletics.

I know they don't say they are but they don't say they aren't either, nor does it explain exactly what departments and programs all the monies raised will be used for. Rest assured their AD depts get their fare share of it, I promise.

And more than anything else, it shows the other universities don't blink an eye at raising fees and tuition amounts and they certainly don't ask their students about it.

Rick

Edited May 29, 2008 by FirefightnRick

mad dog · May 29, 2008

Wow I could hardly disagree with your statement more. Just because a portion of students don't care about athletics doesn't mean you intentionally want to run them off. As pointed out, those students might find their niche somewhere else at UNT and be a donor to another area later. A university gets a boost in its 'rankings' by the percentage of alumni that donate to the university. If alumni donate to other areas, it helps UNT overall. As we have all pointed out, a donation to athletics helps the university overall. But the reverse is also true. Donations to UNT in other areas can also help athletics, as the reputation of UNT or a specific area of UNT (like an academic area) can help with recruiting and the overall prestige of the university.
I do agree that the Group 2 students are the ones you need to sway. If some of your Group 3 students leave in disgust, then ok. But the venom in your statement is unwarranted. No need to intentionally run off any group.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. But I feel it is completely warranted, and it is the unspoken reason why Group 2 students rarely get to being donors.

If you took my post to mean that a student not liking athletics means they should be kicked out of the school, I think that would be a pretty severe misread. So let me explain a different way.

Let me start with the obvious... we are not talking about running off viable donors. If you have ever met one of these people, then you know that you'd have more success trying to pitch the Bible to a Industrial Goth crowd than talking a Group 3 student into ANY kind of donation.

I would agree that people giving to other areas is just fine. If someone felt called to donate to the psychology department, that would be great. But I have yet to meet a consistent donor to the University of North Texas who was interested in anything other than athletics. Athletics is the battlefield on which universities compete, at least in the public eye. If Texas A&M beat UT every year, there is no doubt in my mind that they would be viewed, in the public eye, as the most prestigious university in Texas. It is on that battleground that public perception is won and lost, and donating to that effort is the only way to significantly change people's minds. Would the average person on the street be more likely to hear about a 3 million dollar donation to the Music School or to North Texas athletics? Even moreso... would the average person be more aware of A Capella going to LA and blowing out the Mormon Tabernacle, or that North Texas featured the nation's leading rusher?

So, if we understand that Athletics is going to need to be the medium, the window, through which the University is judged in the court of public opinion, then I do not see how you can help but decry what Group 3 students have done.

Group 3 students are against the university, plain and simple. It is woven into the fabric of their social circles, into their culture. I am not exaggerating when I say I have interacted with hundreds of such students during my time in Residence Life. While many students across the University are in school because it is expected of them, or because it is a necessary step along the way, Group 3 students make a point of taking things a step further. These students literally hate their university because it represents a focal point for all of their frustration. It might be different if they even had something else they wanted INSTEAD of an athletics fee (a fee for a sorely needed health centre, a recreation facility, or upgrade to the University Union). But these students are against the University taking action even when it directly benefits them. It is argument for the sake of argument, spite for the sake of spite.

But even this, though it grates on me, is not the main issue. It is the collateral damage from this group that kills us. I can remember, off the top of my head, four distinct times when a freshman has come in during the fall, into the university, football, residence life, and excited about the future, and ended up as a group 3 student. In each case, it was the venom from other Group 3s that influenced them. When it becomes "cool" to bag on your school... that is how you lose your donors and alumni numbers.

If cancer cells didn't multiply, they wouldn't be a problem. So, too, with Group 3 students. If they didn't hold such undue influence over the thousands of other students, I can only imagine what the Group 1s might be able to accomplish. With a poor athletics program, you are not giving the group 1 students anything to get vocal about, and so you end up arming the dissidents.

I would love to think that these people can somehow be made to see that there is a real need for an improvement of athletics, to show them that athletics has no equal in generating pride in one's university. Excellence = pride, pride = active alumni and donations. It is as simple as that.

So, yes, I do think that it would be a great thing if the dissident Group 3 student made their home at, say, UTA or UTD. Yes, I think it would be a great thing if the Administration realized that they will NEVER be donors, and stopped worrying about giving the lunatic keys to the asylum. But, in any case, I think it is VERY difficult to make the argument that they are somehow untapped resources that only need a little water and sunshine to become our T. Boone Pickens.

May 29, 2008

Let me be clear that I believe in athletics and believe that a student fee is necessary and will pass. I truly believe that athletics are a great way to attract and retain students, as well as cultivate school pride that can (should) lead to future involvement as alumni.

I don't think that it is the end-all, be-all remedy for UNT that you do. I think that contributions to non-athletic causes are, in fact, the rule and not the exception. Most alumni that I know donate to UNT, to either a specific department/organization, scholarships, or the general university fund. I personally donate to athletics, to a student organization, and I am setting up an endowed scholarship with a group of fellow alumni. Obviously the circles in which you travel will influence your thoughts on what causes people donate to, but I am pretty sure more donations go to the university in general than just athletics. I think the major donations that UNT has gotten have gotten plenty of attention, like the Murchison donation.

We don't have love of UNT or the establishment as an admission requirement. Nor is it a requirement to live in the dorms, pass classes, or graduate. We would all love for 100% of the students at UNT to love UNT and become donors, but it will not happen. If someone hates UNT and gets pissed off and leaves, then sure they didn't want to be here anyways, so no big deal. But before you start wishing them away, consider a few things. First, growth is the rule. Whether needed or not, UNT is growing. It is a goal of the university and a by-product of the growth of DFW. The university does not want students to go away. In fact, increasing retention and graduation rates is a very important goal of UNT. Remember all those national rankings that we have discussed here? Well those are in part influenced by those retention and graduation numbers. UNT can ill afford to intentionally drive off students.

I understand your frustration with the students that don't care. I know you are not saying that we should kick them out. You aren't saying it, but are making it clear that is what you want by using terms like lunatic and cancer when referring to these students. You know in any national election, a strong candidate is still going to usually have 45% or more of the voters vote against him/her. Does that mean that almost half the country is evil? No, it just means they have a different view of the world. If a poster on this board called another poster a cancer or luncatic, they just might get a warning for personal attacks. From you.

I don't disagree with your opinion that we need to strengthed athletics to increase pride and the image of the university. I am just not sure you understand the realities of how the university operates.

Edited May 29, 2008 by 97and03

Cerebus · May 29, 2008

So by your logic you figure that people who didn't want the fee because they don't like athletics would not be likely to donate to athletics later in life after graduation? Doesn't jive...

But they may give to their College, or the General University fund. The University does exist for other purposes besides football.

May 29, 2008

But they may give to their College, or the General University fund. The University does exist for other purposes besides football.

Cue Tasty or Quoner to say "Heresy! Burn the witch!"

Stan R · May 29, 2008

Yes Cerebus I hear your point. Don't really agree that a small increase in an athletics fee would turn people away from donating to their College of choice after they become rich and famous, but...

What is the athletics fee at UT Austin? Does anyone know?

mad dog · May 29, 2008

Let me be clear that I believe in athletics and believe that a student fee is necessary and will pass. I truly believe that athletics are a great way to attract and retain students, as well as cultivate school pride that can (should) lead to future involvement as alumni.
I don't think that it is the end-all, be-all remedy for UNT that you do. I think that contributions to non-athletic causes are, in fact, the rule and not the exception. Most alumni that I know donate to UNT, to either a specific department/organization, scholarships, or the general university fund. I personally donate to athletics, to a student organization, and I am setting up an endowed scholarship with a group of fellow alumni. Obviously the circles in which you travel will influence your thoughts on what causes people donate to, but I am pretty sure more donations go to the university in general than just athletics. I think the major donations that UNT has gotten have gotten plenty of attention, like the Murchison donation.
We don't have love of UNT or the establishment as an admission requirement. Nor is it a requirement to live in the dorms, pass classes, or graduate. We would all love for 100% of the students at UNT to love UNT and become donors, but it will not happen. If someone hates UNT and gets pissed off and leaves, then sure they didn't want to be here anyways, so no big deal. But before you start wishing them away, consider a few things. First, growth is the rule. Whether needed or not, UNT is growing. It is a goal of the university and a by-product of the growth of DFW. The university does not want students to go away. In fact, increasing retention and graduation rates is a very important goal of UNT. Remember all those national rankings that we have discussed here? Well those are in part influenced by those retention and graduation numbers. UNT can ill afford to intentionally drive off students.
I understand your frustration with the students that don't care. I know you are not saying that we should kick them out. You aren't saying it, but are making it clear that is what you want by using terms like lunatic and cancer when referring to these students. You know in any national election, a strong candidate is still going to usually have 45% or more of the voters vote against him/her. Does that mean that almost half the country is evil? No, it just means they have a different view of the world. If a poster on this board called another poster a cancer or luncatic, they just might get a warning for personal attacks. From you.
I don't disagree with your opinion that we need to strengthed athletics to increase pride and the image of the university. I am just not sure you understand the realities of how the university operates.

Since long paragraphs have apprently obscured my meaning, let me boil it down as much as possible:

Idea 1

1) There exists a small group of people who hate the university

2) These people, in my 3 years experience in residence life operations, have strong tendencies to influence others to their point of view

3) These students will never donate

4) Why the heck is the administration concerned with appeasing a small group of people who are eating away at their alumni and donations base?

Idea 2

1) I think that we need an athletics fee for a stadium

2) People may leave as a result

3) A large portion of those people leaving are the very people that are helping erode your donor and alumni base

4) If these people want to leave, then it is no loss to our university, and may in fact be a gain.

That is all I am saying, man. You can try to make it into something about national elections, me warning posters, or my (apparently) limited understanding of the operations of universities... please, be my guest. But I really can't make it any more simple than that.

UNTFan23 · May 30, 2008

But they may give to their College, or the General University fund. The University does exist for other purposes besides football.

There are only 3 areas of the university that I will donate to:

1. Athletics

2. BCIS

3. COBA

I might be able to start giving to BCIS starting next year in fact.

yyz28 · May 30, 2008

This poll reminds me why Alumni should be running the University...

...but I digress.

yyz28 · May 30, 2008

Since long paragraphs have apprently obscured my meaning, let me boil it down as much as possible:
Idea 1
1) There exists a small group of people who hate the university
2) These people, in my 3 years experience in residence life operations, have strong tendencies to influence others to their point of view
3) These students will never donate
4) Why the heck is the administration concerned with appeasing a small group of people who are eating away at their alumni and donations base?
Idea 2
1) I think that we need an athletics fee for a stadium
2) People may leave as a result
3) A large portion of those people leaving are the very people that are helping erode your donor and alumni base
4) If these people want to leave, then it is no loss to our university, and may in fact be a gain.
That is all I am saying, man. You can try to make it into something about national elections, me warning posters, or my (apparently) limited understanding of the operations of universities... please, be my guest. But I really can't make it any more simple than that.

Most Underrated post, maybe ever, on this board.

May 30, 2008

Since long paragraphs have apprently obscured my meaning, let me boil it down as much as possible:
Idea 1
1) There exists a small group of people who hate the university
2) These people, in my 3 years experience in residence life operations, have strong tendencies to influence others to their point of view
3) These students will never donate
4) Why the heck is the administration concerned with appeasing a small group of people who are eating away at their alumni and donations base?
Idea 2
1) I think that we need an athletics fee for a stadium
2) People may leave as a result
3) A large portion of those people leaving are the very people that are helping erode your donor and alumni base
4) If these people want to leave, then it is no loss to our university, and may in fact be a gain.
That is all I am saying, man. You can try to make it into something about national elections, me warning posters, or my (apparently) limited understanding of the operations of universities... please, be my guest. But I really can't make it any more simple than that.

No, I understood you perfectly. I just disagree with your hatred of these people and your statement that if they leave it may be a plus for the university. Lowering retention and graduation rates is never a plus.

I also agree that we need a fee. The students will vote for it. The BOR will approve it. The fee will go into place. Some students might be pissed off enough to leave UNT about it, but I doubt it. If they do, they do. Life moves on. I never said not to have a fee. I never said that UNT needs to appease anyone. The students that don't like football get to have their say and the people that do like football will have a say. Those that don't care won't say anything. That is kind of how it is for any issue, right?

There isn't a huge disagreement between us other than your tone, I suppose. Really I was just trying to figure out why you are so bitter towards these kids that you hope leave UNT. I was just trying to stress that students leaving UNT hurts the university, regardless of their future donation potential. And I wasn't trying to insult you by saying that you may have a limited knowledge of how universities operate. It just is probably the case. I work at UNT and still haven't figured out every aspect of retention and things of that nature.

FirefightnRick · May 30, 2008

While I agree with Illuvius on most points, I think Matt that your missing the most important one, and that is we can't even consider any of your groups if we are going to FIX THE PROBLEM. You have to change the environment today to affect those within it tomorrow. The kids today won't matter if any sweeping changes were made right now. It's the kids who come here next year and the years afterwards. And that will only be changed by buildng a winning attitude here, and that cannot be done by asking the few donating alumni who give towards athletics to donate more. That's just not going to happen nor would it be enough to make a difference.

Take advantage of the one powerfull, advantagious tool we have right now and FIX THE PROBLEM!!!!!

Rick