If You Had The Power To Impose

UNTBill · May 28, 2008

But we're not talking about funding athletics, we're talking about a stadium fee.
Angels on the head of a pin...

I say have the students vote on a fee increase to fund a new stadium.

Then simply stuff the ballot box. We get a new stadium and the democratic

process prevails. :lol:

Edited May 28, 2008 by UNTBill

filmerj · May 29, 2008

I believe if you impose a stadium or athletic fee, it might get the kids to care because they are paying for it. Just do it. I remember paying a fee for the rec center I never got to use and a technology use fee for computers and a/v systems I worked to install all across campus. My brother who is an aggie alum said they paid hundreds in athletic fees, and still had to pay for tickets to sporting events in the form of an athletic pass. I don't think we have to go that far... let the students know the games are free is a good start to getting them there, I also think we need to make all freshman go to a fish camp much like A&m does, just dial back the crazy brain washing.

Edited May 29, 2008 by filmerj

Green P1 · May 29, 2008

I believe if you impose a stadium or athletic fee, it might get the kids to care because they are paying for it. Just do it. I remember paying a fee for the rec center I never got to use and a technology use fee for computers and a/v systems I worked to install all across campus. My brother who is an aggie alum said they paid hundreds in athletic fees, and still had to pay for tickets to sporting events in the form of an athletic pass. I don't think we have to go that far... let the students know the games are free is a good start to getting them there, I also think we need to make all freshman go to a fish camp much like A&m does, just dial back the crazy brain washing.

Don't you mean dial in the crazy brain washing?

filmerj · May 29, 2008

Don't you mean dial in the crazy brain washing?

No way those guys are like a cult... would you really want to "caw" every time you ran into a senior? That's a little much.

Edited May 29, 2008 by filmerj

DeepGreen · May 29, 2008

Fixed fee. Just do it!

Green P1 · May 29, 2008

No way those guys are like a cult... would you really want to "caw" every time you ran into a senior? That's a little much.

Is Fish Camp different than freshman orientation? I remember being forced to sit through like 4 days of that b/s. Lots of rhyming, singing, dancing, chants, and me wanting to kill myself. They kept us there for 4 days and we only did like 2 hours worth of useful college preparation.

stebo · May 29, 2008

Fees can be mandated by the BOR without a student vote. When the last fee was voted down, the BOR imposed a lower fee anyways with the reasoning that we had to become Title IX compliant. The SGA endorsed it and even voted on it - maybe that took the place of a student body vote, but the actual fee was not voted on by the student body (they rejected the larger fee that would have built the stadium already). People are always looking for someone to blame, well - its a little bit of everyone. The students that voted it down. The administration for wording the fee so that it would go into effect right away. The idiotic alumni that went back to campus and tried to "campaign" for the fee when most kids wouldn't have even known that it was on the ballot in the first place (and it would have passed). It is a little of everything... also, there were two other huge fees going on at the time that had just gone into place... the Rec Center fee and the Health Center fee. If the fee had been structured properly, it would have been worded to start 4 years after it was voted on - so that the kids voting on it wouldn't have to actually pay it - thus not caring about it in the first place.. it wouldn't have been hidden in with a bill to fund Title IX (all that did was cause distrust among the people voting for it)...

I also keep seeing people post about selling naming rights to the stadium. Those things come with time but they never come before the ground is broken. I cannot think of a single corporation that has bought the naming righs for a stadiumor arena before it was already funded. Even the American Airlines Center sold its naming rights AFTER it was fully funded by taxpayers. Troy sold its stadium's rights after the thing was built. Maybe Papa Johns put their name up first? Maybe... that is really the only one that I can think of but they were drawing 40K a game and would have built it anyway - it was already fully funded. We have to build it by any means possible and then go out and put a great product on the field. If we do that, the stadium will be full and we will have plenty of companies that want their name on the stadium/field/locker rooms/etc...

And yes, I agree with Flyer - there will be a fee, it will not be voted on by the student body, and it will come next year so that the stadium is open by 2010. We didn't build that entire endzone complex and athletic center just to leave the field empty next to it.

Greendylan · May 29, 2008

I have to repent. I voted against the student fee several years ago, and I desperately wish I was still a student so that I could amend my original decision. At that point in time, I didn't fully understand the necessity for new facilities, and more importantly, I didn't recognize the true potential of our athletics program. It's very easy to rally against any new fees and more difficult to have the vision to understand their importance. Thus, I tend to believe that many other students are in my situation and should be compelled to pay a modest fee that would drastically improve our university's image in a profound way. Beyond facilities, an athletic fee would catapult us to the forefront of the Sun Belt and beyond in terms of athletic prestige, and while that doesn't solve some other funding issues on campus, it is a start. I truly believe that we can become the preeminent university in the state. That will take time and patience, but it is not out of the question. Why do I believe that? We already have premier programs in a great many areas that can compete with or surpass any other school in the state, if not the entire region. This will require increased funding across the board, but athletics is a visible beginning. If you doubt the need for a commitment to athletics, consider this: what academically prestigious university can you name that has inferior athletic facilities to our own? Ivy league schools may have, in some cases, smaller stadiums, but even they have more equipped surroundings for their athletic programs. In the state of Texas, Rice won a baseball national championship a few years ago. Prestige is an all-encompassing endeavor in higher education.

UNTflyer · May 29, 2008

I have said before that there needs to be a dedicated athletics fee, increased incrementally by $5 a credit hour each year for 4 years.

$20 x 12 hours x 30,000 students x 2 semesters = over $14.4 million a year (plus summer fees)

filmerj · May 29, 2008

Is Fish Camp different than freshman orientation? I remember being forced to sit through like 4 days of that b/s. Lots of rhyming, singing, dancing, chants, and me wanting to kill myself. They kept us there for 4 days and we only did like 2 hours worth of useful college preparation.

Not sure, but they teach them all the chants, all the cheers, the history of the school, traditions that sort of thing.

FirefightnRick · May 29, 2008

My source tells me "SHE" fully understands how badly we need this fee, but that it won't happen right now without a student vote, and that we probably don't have the right folks in place to make it happen. I don't agree with it, but that's what I was told. Personally I'm with the "yes" crowd as it should be imposed and imposed RIGHT NOW before it's too late. Look how much time we have wasted now since the last time shortsightedness bit us in the @ss? It should be done and it should be imposed in increments. With regards to everyone on campus simply taking 12 hours per long semester, look at what Coach's Dodge, Jones, Williams and Hedlund and all the others would have to work with in the near future if that fee had been done correctly back in '04.

2004.....$2.00 per credit hour x 816,000hrs(34,000 students taking 12 hours during each of the long semesters..24x34,000)=$1.6 Million plus

2005.....$4.00 x 816,000hrs=$3.264 Million plus

2006.....$6.00 x 816,000hrs=$4.896 Million plus

2007.....$8.00 x 816,000hrs=$6.528 Million plus

2008.....$10.00 x 816,000hrs=$8.16 Million plus

2009.....$12.00 x 816,000hrs=$9.792 Million plus

That's $34,240,000 Million dollars that would have been banked and ready to use next spring toward the base funding for the stadium, more than enough to bond out the remaining $26 Million(supposedly we only need around $20 Million to bond out), or have in hand to cultivate from donors and investors for the remaining amount. I can only imagine the ease at which it would have given our leadership the ability to approach potential donors/investors to come on board and be a part of such a historic event if this had happened.

But that's not all. After the the stadium is completed or a time is reached in which the fee is no longer needed for stadium funding, the fee doesn't go away. It continues to generate $19,578,000 Million dollars for every two long semesters each year. That's nearly $20 Million the AD would have as leverage towards getting the Oklahoma States and the Mizzouris and who ever else to come here and play. It would also help us to compete for coaches and assistant coaches salaries, or to build that baseball stadium or whatever. This is the powerful advantage North Texas holds in it's hands due to our current enrollement that this administration must take advantage of if we are to go forward and reach the next levels. Better coaches, better athletes, better facilities and more wins. More wins builds pride within the massive enrollment and that creates an alumni base that will be much more willing to give back.

It can be done, and it could be done in a snap if the appropriate leadership would convince those who can, to go through with it.

FIX THE PROBLEM!

Rick

Green P1 · May 29, 2008

My source tells me "SHE" fully understands how badly we need this fee, but that it won't happen right now without a student vote, and that we probably don't have the right folks in place to make it happen. I don't agree with it, but that's what I was told. Personally I'm with the "yes" crowd as it should be imposed and imposed RIGHT NOW before it's too late. Look how much time we have wasted now since the last time shortsightedness bit us in the @ss? It should be done and it should be imposed in increments. With regards to everyone on campus simply taking 12 hours per long semester, look at what Coach's Dodge, Jones, Williams and Hedlund and all the others would have to work with in the near future if that fee had been done correctly back in '04.
2004.....$2.00 per credit hour x 816,000hrs(34,000 students taking 12 hours during each of the long semesters..24x34,000)=$1.6 Million plus
2005.....$4.00 x 816,000hrs=$3.264 Million plus
2006.....$6.00 x 816,000hrs=$4.896 Million plus
2007.....$8.00 x 816,000hrs=$6.528 Million plus
2008.....$10.00 x 816,000hrs=$8.16 Million plus
2009.....$12.00 x 816,000hrs=$9.792 Million plus
That's $34,240,000 Million dollars that would have been banked and ready to use next spring toward the base funding for the stadium, more than enough to bond out the remaining $26 Million(supposedly we only need around $20 Million to bond out), or have in hand to cultivate from donors and investors for the remaining amount. I can only imagine the ease at which it would have given our leadership the ability to approach potential donors/investors to come on board and be a part of such a historic event if this had happened.
But that's not all. After the the stadium is completed or a time is reached in which the fee is no longer needed for stadium funding, the fee doesn't go away. It continues to generate $19,578,000 Million dollars for every two long semesters each year. That's nearly $20 Million the AD would have as leverage towards getting the Oklahoma States and the Mizzouris and who ever else to come here and play. It would also help us to compete for coaches and assistant coaches salaries, or to build that baseball stadium or whatever. This is the powerful advantage North Texas holds in it's hands due to our current enrollement that this administration must take advantage of if we are to go forward and reach the next levels. Better coaches, better athletes, better facilities and more wins. More wins builds pride within the massive enrollment and that creates an alumni base that will be much more willing to give back.
It can be done, and it could be done in a snap if the appropriate leadership would convince those who can, to go through with it.
FIX THE PROBLEM!
Rick

Thats a lot. I was in the minority that loved/supported athletics but I would have been pretty upset with those kinds of increases. The student body is already troubled by the rising costs of tuition since deregulation. Throw in incremental increases like that and you're going to have a full fledged mutiny against athletics.

Edited May 29, 2008 by Green P1

GrandGreen · May 29, 2008

It is always much easier to spend someone else's money. Some may not recognize that students fees are probably the biggest current component of NT athletes funding. So it's not like students are not already doing their part although the vast majority never attend any sports event. Is anyone even sure how much more could even be raised by student fees before NT gets to the state maximum?

I'm not totally against mandated increased athletic student fees because I think that it will in time add value to their degree even if they never attend a game. But I think NT should use a balanced approach assuming as it is looking that NT will never come close to funding a stadium with just donations. NT should never build a stadium unless at least half of the cost can be raised by donations. NT already owns the land, has a huge alumni base, is located in one of the most prosperous parts of the nation with more corporate headquarters nearby than available in most states, and has a great location. With all these advantages, if NT cannot raise at least half the funding through gifts than IMO we should all learn to love Fouts.

UNTflyer · May 29, 2008

We should not be worried about student backlash. No student is going to drop out or choose another school over UNT simply over an athletic or stadium fee.

Cerebus · May 29, 2008

You could have the power of flight or the ability to see through walls. Which do you choose?

Flight, it would cut my commute.

However, if X-Ray vision was on the table...

Cerebus · May 29, 2008

No student is going to drop out or choose another school over UNT simply over an athletic or stadium fee.

a) I am for a fee.

That's a straw man argument. People aren't going to leave school, you are going to lose some potential future donors if you impose a fee on them for something they don't want. And, as politicized as sports is on campus, enforcing a fee on someone for ATHLETICS is much more of a problem than imposing a fee for a new student dorm, or the rec center, or a new classroom building, etc.

GreenMachine · May 29, 2008

I read UNTFlyer's post and get excited because I think he's in the know with the right people, then I read FFR post and get deflated because I think he's in the know with the right people. Damn it people, make up your minds.

May 29, 2008

Just to clear up a couple of inaccuracies here.

1) The rec center fee was not imposed. It was voted on. Twice. Both passed and the second vote counted and that is the fee that exists. The students voted to increased their own fees by $75 a semester, regardless of hours. The rec center is great for the students and is very popular with prospective students. (For the record I was against the fee in the form it was presented.)

2) The increased funding for athletics in 2002 was not imposed by the Board of Regents. The initial proposal to increase student service fees was voted down by the students. Subsequently, the powers that be requested the student government revisit an earlier proposal from a group of senators that included a lower fee that specifically targeted Title IX compliance. The student government, as representatives for the students, approved the lower student service fee increase. This legislation was then submitted to the BOR, who then approved the fee increase.

3) I have a hard time accepting the view that the fees can be imposed. All language referencing increases in student fees or creating new fees includes a student vote. If student fees are raised more than 10% from the level last approved by students, it say they must vote. If compulsory fees exceed $150, they must vote. And all the legislative acts that created a dedicated athletics fee (which is probably what we are moving towards), have specific requirements mandating a student body vote.

And now a couple of comments.

Rick has it right on one thing for sure. Going with a dedicated athletics fee, with incremental increases over a period of years is absolutely the answer. A 'stadium fee' is not the way to go. The dedicated athletics fees will allow UNT to service the stadium debt and then have a surplus when the debt is paid. It is exactly the situation that happened with the Rec Center. The fee pays the debt and funds Rec Sports. As great as that facility is, it did unfortunately lead to an increased chance the increase in funding for athletics would be shot down. There was some lingering animosity about how much fees were going up that increased bad feelings towards athletics funding.

UNTflyer, you state that no one will leave UNT because their fees go up a few dollars. Yet in your revenue generation calculation, you only use 30,000 students as your multiplier. Are you counting on UNT shrinking by 4,000? I hope they are not leaving because of fee increases!

Edited May 29, 2008 by 97and03

Green Mean · May 29, 2008

Thats a lot. I was in the minority that loved/supported athletics but I would have been pretty upset with those kinds of increases. The student body is already troubled by the rising costs of tuition since deregulation. Throw in incremental increases like that and you're going to have a full fledged mutiny against athletics.

Students wont pick UNT based on paying an extra $200 bucks per semester or year for an athletics fee. Honestly speaking, I never looked at the details of my tuition and where it was going. The only thing I could remember was I paid 75 dollars for the Rec Center fee and I only knew that because that was the first year of it and it was publicized. If there are student choosing UNT over things like that then so be it...they can transfer to TWU or something. Other state schools are not cheap either and continue to raise tuition costs if need be but people are waiting in line to go to UT, A&M, TT etc. Either show the world you CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN or just show the world that you are a "CANT DO" university. UNT needs to make that choice.

greenminer · May 29, 2008

Maybe someone who has the time can compare a UNT athletics fee increase, or lack of, to the increase other Texas schools are having in athletics fees (if any).

Maybe Rick's increments sound bad, but if we don't do something now...are other schools passing us?

This may or may not be a case of "Well, everyone else is doing it!"

Green Mean · May 29, 2008

Maybe someone who has the time can compare a UNT athletics fee increase, or lack of, to the increase other Texas schools are having in athletics fees (if any).
Maybe Rick's increments sound bad, but if we don't do something now...are other schools passing us?
This may or may not be a case of "Well, everyone else is doing it!"

I dont really think its a matter of if other schools are going to pass us...its more like how many schools below us will pass us in the next 5 years or so.

GoMeanGreen1999 · May 29, 2008

It is always much easier to spend someone else's money. Some may not recognize that students fees are probably the biggest current component of NT athletes funding. So it's not like students are not already doing their part although the vast majority never attend any sports event. Is anyone even sure how much more could even be raised by student fees before NT gets to the state maximum?
I'm not totally against mandated increased athletic student fees because I think that it will in time add value to their degree even if they never attend a game. But I think NT should use a balanced approach assuming as it is looking that NT will never come close to funding a stadium with just donations. NT should never build a stadium unless at least half of the cost can be raised by donations. NT already owns the land, has a huge alumni base, is located in one of the most prosperous parts of the nation with more corporate headquarters nearby than available in most states, and has a great location. With all these advantages, if NT cannot raise at least half the funding through gifts than IMO we should all learn to love Fouts.

See this is what I have a hard time figuring out - what is so hard about going out and getting at least half of the money needed from the alumni? Trust me, there are PLENTY of alumni that would be able to give this money for the stadium if it was presented to them the right way. My understanding (will admit it may not be sound) is that there is already a significant amount of student fees, and now when we are trying to get alumni more involved in the program, instead of going to them we want to add more fees to the students?

Stan R · May 29, 2008

a) I am for a fee.
That's a straw man argument. People aren't going to leave school, you are going to lose some potential future donors if you impose a fee on them for something they don't want. And, as politicized as sports is on campus, enforcing a fee on someone for ATHLETICS is much more of a problem than imposing a fee for a new student dorm, or the rec center, or a new classroom building, etc.

So by your logic you figure that people who didn't want the fee because they don't like athletics would not be likely to donate to athletics later in life after graduation? Doesn't jive...

mad dog · May 29, 2008

In my 3 year experience as an RA on North Texas' campus, you got a strong anti-growth vibe from what was, as usual, a small but very vocal minority. In halls around campus, you had people who broke down into roughly the following groups:

1) Those who supported NT athletics, and realized their value. Truth be told, this was a fairly small group, because it required an outside the box type of thinking and the courage to voice that opinion in an environment saturated with anti-establishment feelings. I always suspected there were more people who supported athletics but were afraid to say so given the consequential backlash from others.

2) Those who were largely apathetic about NT athletics. This had to constitute upwards of 75% of total population on campus. Music students so busy with their rigorous training to care a lot about football were a significant subsection of this group. These people, when asked about the upcomping football or basketball season, might say they'll go to a game or two because their friends are going, or out of curiosity. They have no loyalties, but they have no serious predispositions, either.

3) Those who will never support NT athletics no matter how well they are doing, no matter how it is explained to them, and are against the very idea of their money going towards college athletics. These are the disenfranchised have-nots of high school graduated and re-grouped, en masse, at the collegiate level. Like all people, they desire to be around their own, and, like it or not, North Texas has a secret pipeline of these bitter not-quite-good enoughs. Their frustrations and bitterness were taken out on their high school and its administrators, and that translates directly into their anger at North Texas, and their administration. Athletes usually comprise the bulk of a high school's social elite. Given that, is it any surprise that they should also hate deeply the quarterback, the point guard, or the cheerleader at the collegiate level?

The only way you are going to change the current on-campus climate is by culling the third group. It is a difficult battle that will require some significant gut checks by the administration. However, I do not see how you can hope to have a "big school" mentality as long as your policies are dictated by those who hate you. They are not happy, they will never be happy. It is their business to not be happy, and trying to change that is a waste of time and resources.

Now, what better way to rid yourself of this poison than by charging them with a fee benefitting the thing they hate the most? Worst case, they keep complaining the same as they always did, and pay the fee to keep their social group together. Best case, they pick up and leave for a commuter school.

The group you are trying to sway is group 2. The good news is that they are the largest group and have open minds. If North Texas were to pull a Boise State, and have a 13-0 season complete with a Fiesta Bowl win, I think you'd see a MUCH different North Texas. You are still seeing the reward we've earned from an 8-5 season and a New Orleans bowl win. Imagine if we had something on the order of Boise State? Group 2 is where you can find the most potential donors, the most potential alumni, and the future Mean Green Club. And they can be won, with the help of a student fee.

untjim1995 · May 29, 2008

My source tells me "SHE" fully understands how badly we need this fee, but that it won't happen right now without a student vote, and that we probably don't have the right folks in place to make it happen. I don't agree with it, but that's what I was told. Personally I'm with the "yes" crowd as it should be imposed and imposed RIGHT NOW before it's too late. Look how much time we have wasted now since the last time shortsightedness bit us in the @ss? It should be done and it should be imposed in increments. With regards to everyone on campus simply taking 12 hours per long semester, look at what Coach's Dodge, Jones, Williams and Hedlund and all the others would have to work with in the near future if that fee had been done correctly back in '04.
2004.....$2.00 per credit hour x 816,000hrs(34,000 students taking 12 hours during each of the long semesters..24x34,000)=$1.6 Million plus
2005.....$4.00 x 816,000hrs=$3.264 Million plus
2006.....$6.00 x 816,000hrs=$4.896 Million plus
2007.....$8.00 x 816,000hrs=$6.528 Million plus
2008.....$10.00 x 816,000hrs=$8.16 Million plus
2009.....$12.00 x 816,000hrs=$9.792 Million plus
That's $34,240,000 Million dollars that would have been banked and ready to use next spring toward the base funding for the stadium, more than enough to bond out the remaining $26 Million(supposedly we only need around $20 Million to bond out), or have in hand to cultivate from donors and investors for the remaining amount. I can only imagine the ease at which it would have given our leadership the ability to approach potential donors/investors to come on board and be a part of such a historic event if this had happened.
But that's not all. After the the stadium is completed or a time is reached in which the fee is no longer needed for stadium funding, the fee doesn't go away. It continues to generate $19,578,000 Million dollars for every two long semesters each year. That's nearly $20 Million the AD would have as leverage towards getting the Oklahoma States and the Mizzouris and who ever else to come here and play. It would also help us to compete for coaches and assistant coaches salaries, or to build that baseball stadium or whatever. This is the powerful advantage North Texas holds in it's hands due to our current enrollement that this administration must take advantage of if we are to go forward and reach the next levels. Better coaches, better athletes, better facilities and more wins. More wins builds pride within the massive enrollment and that creates an alumni base that will be much more willing to give back.
It can be done, and it could be done in a snap if the appropriate leadership would convince those who can, to go through with it.
FIX THE PROBLEM!
Rick

I totally agree with your assessment and the concept of how to fix the problem. However, it sounds like the problem can't/won't be fixed for whatever reasons. This all leads me to ask a few questions. What happens to UNT Football if we don't get a new stadium in the next 5 years? If the students vote down another fee for stadium/athletics/football, would FCS be in our future ever again? (I pray not.) My fears are that no stadium gets built, and that Dodge, if successful as the head coach, pulls a Fry and leaves because the university just doesn't improve the facilities. Actually, there are some profs that I have heard over the years that tell their students that we should drop football because of the cost and the fact that we are a "music and arts" school. I guess this is my worst fear for UNT. I am just interested to hear what folks think about the future if we don't get what we want. We often talk about the other side of when we get a new stadium, but what if...