The Drive: Texas State's Campaign To 1-a

NT80 · May 28, 2008

UNT could never afford to buy out all the pitiful apartments and shacks that surround a typical college campus. Even if they did others would follow to replace them. Supply and demand. Look at your aerial map and the nice buffer NT has created now with Eagle Point that serves as controlled open space. Most Universities would kill for 200+ acres to become available adjoining their campus. When Fouts is gone that land can then be used for core campus and a buffer from cement city and the like. Leave the MasterPlanning to others. :rolleyes:

CheckFacts · May 28, 2008

UNT could never afford to buy out all the pitiful apartments and shacks that surround a typical college campus. Even if they did others would follow to replace them. Supply and demand. Look at your aerial map and the nice buffer NT has created now with Eagle Point that serves as controlled open space. Most Universities would kill for 200+ acres to become available adjoining their campus. When Fouts is gone that land can then be used for core campus and a buffer from cement city and the like. Leave the MasterPlanning to others.

why would I do that when the "others" have formulated a plan of sprawl with no method to fund it

UNT already has 200 acres north on Bonnie Brae that they have no clue what the vast majority will be used for

UNT is also busy buying up shacks on the east side of campus and knocking them down so they can put up temp shacks for the business school to run some programs out of and to build parking lots

any university that CAN AFFORD it might like the 200 acres that is separated from campus by a major interstate that will soon be under major construction

but a wise university would not develop it without the cash to do so and only after all their knee jerk purchases had been planned out and funded....a really wise university would have sold it off when the price was sky high and used the money for better purposes

Eagle1855 · May 28, 2008

a really wise university would have sold it off when the price was sky high and used the money for better purposes

Like...?

Methinks all that property will continue to appreciate. Sitting on it isnt hurting anything. It may actually be wise. If the University does continue to grow, they've got land they purchased for far less than what they would have spent to aquire it 20-30 years from now.

CheckFacts · May 28, 2008

Like...?
Methinks all that property will continue to appreciate. Sitting on it isnt hurting anything. It may actually be wise. If the University does continue to grow, they've got land they purchased for far less than what they would have spent to aquire it 20-30 years from now.

like a development similar to rayzor ranch

or for a housing development......and there is no chance if PROPER PLANNING was done that UNT would even need that space west of 35

there is plenty, probably excess, land already on the main campus to perform all needed functions to meet any planned growth at UNT

and with UNT currently putting all their resources into trying to develop two other residential campuses in Dallas I do not see the growth at UNT that some expect

UNT also has 200 acres with academic programs currently offered north on Bonnie Brae.......any athletic facilities for smaller sports that would not fit on the main campus could be located there as could any academic facilities

I question if UNT even needed the Bonnie Brae property and feel they could have worked a much more aggressive deal to acquire it if they felt the need to purchase it

MCMLXXX · May 28, 2008

there is no space shortage anywhere on UNTs campus as far as where to place new buildings. at 50,000 an acre UNT would have had close to 10 million to work with on their existing acreage or to acquire new land (like crappy areas of cement city)

Richard Rafes told me several years ago that the price to buy and tear down the cement city area was exhorbitant and UNT could not afford to do it (he gave me an approximate figure, it has been a long time and I don't remember the exact amount, I know it was far more than $10 million).

CheckFacts · May 28, 2008

Richard Rafes told me several years ago that the price to buy and tear down the cement city area was exhorbitant and UNT could not afford to do it (he gave me an approximate figure, it has been a long time and I don't remember the exact amount, I know it was far more than $10 million).

I will take your story at face value

but I find it difficult to believe that collection of crap would be cost prohibitive to tear down in the long run.....Lubbock just got through with a privately funded project that purchased up many times the number of properties that exist in cement city and either moved them out or tore them down and replaced them with new student apartments, retail and some residential....it was the largest privately funded redevelopment in the US at the time according to the hypsters......so UNT could have waded into the mess of cement city and purchased properties

second UNT has torn down a number of properties on the east edge of campus for nothing but parking or for audiology labs or accounting continuing education.....these properties on a per unit basis were surely worth more than the crap in cement city.....and lastly UNT currently has 200 acres north on Bonnie Brae that they have no idea what the vast majority of it will be used for.......so they already have all the land and space they need without the Eagle Point property

GoMeanGreen1999 · May 28, 2008

Richard Rafes told me several years ago that the price to buy and tear down the cement city area was exhorbitant and UNT could not afford to do it (he gave me an approximate figure, it has been a long time and I don't remember the exact amount, I know it was far more than $10 million).

Obviously everyone has a price they are willing to part ways with things, but the owner of more than what I have had described in the ballpark of 80% of cement city, is a very good business man that is making a serious amount of money managing his properties, not too mention a pretty nice guy.

UNTLifer · May 28, 2008

and lastly UNT currently has 200 acres north on Bonnie Brae that they have no idea what the vast majority of it will be used for.......so they already have all the land and space they need without the Eagle Point property

That's what we need to do, build our athletic facilities 7 miles north of the property on the northern edge of the city limits.

The purchase of the TI facility was hailed as one of the best real estate deals around when the purchase was made. I would think that having 200 acres at their disposal to either further develop the Research Park or to sell, considering it fronts Loop 288 is a great situation to be in. Land values only go up and are one of the wisest investments around.

North Texas already owned the Eagle Point land and the golf course was a money pit. Renovating Fouts by lowering the bowl was not an option due to drainage/water table concerns and the need for future academic facility growth at the "core" of the main campus is needed. Moving the facilities across I35 directly adjacent to the main campus, to land already owned by the university, land that was losing money hand over fist trying to survive as a golf course, land that if sold off to a developer years ago would seriously decrease the amount of land available around the main campus and would make it almost impossible to reaquire in the future, land that allowed North Texas to become Title IX compliant and place all of its athletic facilities in one common area was, IMHO, a wise decision.

You chastise NT for having no plan on how to fund the football stadium, etc... yet in later you applaud NT for the original plan to renovate the physical plant and Fouts to the tune of $90 million, yet there was no plan to fund that either. RV came to my fraternity's alumni meeting just after his arrival and presented this plan to us. It was an exiciting plan and had us all pumped up too, but funding was and continues to be the real issue.

UNT also has 200 acres with academic programs currently offered north on Bonnie Brae.......any athletic facilities for smaller sports that would not fit on the main campus could be located there as could any academic facilities
I question if UNT even needed the Bonnie Brae property and feel they could have worked a much more aggressive deal to acquire it if they felt the need to purchase it

Why place some of the athletic facilities 7 miles away from the others? Logistically, that is a nightmare for training staff, equipment, etc...

When NT bought this property from TI, it was applauded in real estate circles as one of the best transactions, in NT's favor, around. Why not sell the additional acreage to businesses that would compliment the College of Engineering? It is prime real estate that fronts the new extension of Loop 288 with direct access to I35 and would keep North Texas from separating it's athletic facilities. The one athletic facility that I could see placed out there would be a univeristy golf course.

It is just too bad that you weren't available years ago when RV arrived to set the course for NT and the athletic department. It is obvious that you are far superior at planning development and the utilization of land, financial managment of univeristy funds, evaluation of teacher/prof performance than those that have made their living as professionals in these areas. I can only hope that NT will survive another 100+ years without your input.

TIgreen01 · May 28, 2008

It is just too bad that you weren't available years ago when RV arrived to set the course for NT and the athletic department. It is obvious that you are far superior at planning development and the utilization of land, financial managment of univeristy funds, evaluation of teacher/prof performance than those that have made their living as professionals in these areas. I can only hope that NT will survive another 100+ years without your input.

AMEN!!

CheckFacts · May 29, 2008

AMEN!!

I never stated anything about renovating Fouts that has been discussed about why it is not possible. Second I did not say put any or all of the athletics at the TI campus.......but in reality who cares if track and soccer was located there......multiple schools with as much or more success in athletics as UNT has had have their MAJOR sports facilities well off of campus......the cheap paint pic I posted shows plenty of room for football, baseball, softball, and tennis all just slapped in there with little thought. and there is still plenty of room for a soccer field with a track around it.....so anyone with a small amount of creativity could have placed ALL the facilities on the existing space east of I-35

if there was not room for track and soccer UNT also has the library annex property that would be as close or closer than where the current plan calls for soccer and track to be located.......so distance to it is a non-issue

the claim was made that eagle point was needed for "mandated" growth to 45,000.....first there is no "mandate" for anything from THECB and second THECB growth projections have UNT at 41,000 many years down the road.....UNT has already placed academic programs at TI so why should they spread them to eagle point as well......pick a place for academics and stick with it....it is not difficult

I was around when the south dallas failure was brought up. I specifically contacted royce west to discuss it with him.......his arguments for the campus were juvenile at best and smelled strongly of a fat pig feeding at a trough.....and he tried to race bait me which was when the call ended.....his arguements for the campus were that "dallas and dallas county did not have a public university and I would be shocked to know that"....I explained I was not shocked at all because dallas proper is a small part of the metromess and UTD is just up the road to the north and UT is just to the west.....he had no answer for that

his next argument was that 300,000 more people would soon flood into south dallas....I explained the Texas boom and bust economy and that those projections would not hold true (they have not) and if that many people were scheduled to move there with no university then higher education was probably not why they were choosing to locate there...and if higher education was what they desired they should move to one of multiple areas around dallas with a university......he had no answer for that

his last argument was that dallas students were under represented in colleges.....I said if someone can't cross over to Arlington or Richardson for an education I question their motivation and there should be schlorships in place and a bus....and that paul quinn was about to go under.....he had race baiting to answer that with

I also contacted THECB and was basically told it was now out of their hands and it was going to go through......so I put out the effort.....fat greedy pigs and rubber stampers got in the way.....the total lack of success and the fact that the south dallas campus offers none of the big time degrees they mentioned when it started tells me I was 100% correct in my opinions at the time

I knew it was a mistake when jackson was hired (not the one with the badge and a gun the one that can't raise a dime for anything outside of dallas county)

Jackson was brought in to be a big time fund raiser....he has been a big time flop unless you consider a south dallas and a down town campus that are both not meeting THECB projections or UNTS own projections as a success. and if you consider moving programs out of Denton and tying potential professional schools to the dallas campus VS Denton a success.......all while raising little if any money for any of them and making THECB reconsider a lot of things in the future

while UNT in Denton plods along.....the powers at be in Denton and now dallas continue to put all their time and effort into the south dallas campus and into the UCD.....always against the current wishes of THECB.....and all the while programs and professional schools leave Denton or are planned for dallas.......but I guess you are OK with that as long as you get a stadium somewhere in 8-10 years

Edited May 29, 2008 by CheckFacts

FirefightnRick · May 29, 2008

EagleMan lives!!!!!!

DFTT's!!!!

Rick

UNTLifer · May 29, 2008

the claim was made that eagle point was needed for "mandated" growth to 45,000.....first there is no "mandate" for anything from THECB and second THECB growth projections have UNT at 41,000 many years down the road.....UNT has already placed academic programs at TI so why should they spread them to eagle point as well......pick a place for academics and stick with it....it is not difficult
I was around when the south dallas failure was brought up. I specifically contacted royce west to discuss it with him.......his arguments for the campus were juvenile at best and smelled strongly of a fat pig feeding at a trough.....and he tried to race bait me which was when the call ended.....his arguements for the campus were that "dallas and dallas county did not have a public university and I would be shocked to know that"....I explained I was not shocked at all because dallas proper is a small part of the metromess and UTD is just up the road to the north and UT is just to the west.....he had no answer for that
his next argument was that 300,000 more people would soon flood into south dallas....I explained the Texas boom and bust economy and that those projections would not hold true (they have not) and if that many people were scheduled to move there with no university then higher education was probably not why they were choosing to locate there...and if higher education was what they desired they should move to one of multiple areas around dallas with a university......he had no answer for that
his last argument was that dallas students were under represented in colleges.....I said if someone can't cross over to Arlington or Richardson for an education I question their motivation and there should be schlorships in place and a bus....and that paul quinn was about to go under.....he had race baiting to answer that with
I also contacted THECB and was basically told it was now out of their hands and it was going to go through......so I put out the effort.....fat greedy pigs and rubber stampers got in the way.....the total lack of success and the fact that the south dallas campus offers none of the big time degrees they mentioned when it started tells me I was 100% correct in my opinions at the time
I knew it was a mistake when jackson was hired (not the one with the badge and a gun the one that can't raise a dime for anything outside of dallas county)
Jackson was brought in to be a big time fund raiser....he has been a big time flop unless you consider a south dallas and a down town campus that are both not meeting THECB projections or UNTS own projections as a success. and if you consider moving programs out of Denton and tying potential professional schools to the dallas campus VS Denton a success.......all while raising little if any money for any of them and making THECB reconsider a lot of things in the future
while UNT in Denton plods along.....the powers at be in Denton and now dallas continue to put all their time and effort into the south dallas campus and into the UCD.....always against the current wishes of THECB.....and all the while programs and professional schools leave Denton or are planned for dallas.......but I guess you are OK with that as long as you get a stadium somewhere in 8-10 years

First, what academic programs are scheduled for Eagle Point?

The remainder of you post reflects your attitude in your other posts. You are right and everyone else is wrong.

BTW, I do agree that the Dallas campus is not needed and with your assessment of Jackson, but I don't think anyone on here is on board with building a stadium and ignoring other needs. I would be comfortable in stating that 100%, or very close to that, of the posters want excellence across the board at NT, but you must remember that this is an athletic's site.

Green Mean · May 29, 2008

his last argument was that dallas students were under represented in colleges.....I said if someone can't cross over to Arlington or Richardson for an education I question their motivation and there should be schlorships in place and a bus....and that paul quinn was about to go under.....he had race baiting to answer that with

I agree with you there.

UNTBill · May 29, 2008

EagleMan lives!!!!!!
DFTT's!!!!
Rick

Check Facs is most definitely not "Eagleman"

Mean Green Matt · May 29, 2008

EagleMan lives!!!!!!
DFTT's!!!!
Rick

Good Guess....but Guess Again. :closedeyes:

CheckFacts · May 30, 2008

First, what academic programs are scheduled for Eagle Point?
The remainder of you post reflects your attitude in your other posts. You are right and everyone else is wrong.
BTW, I do agree that the Dallas campus is not needed and with your assessment of Jackson, but I don't think anyone on here is on board with building a stadium and ignoring other needs. I would be comfortable in stating that 100%, or very close to that, of the posters want excellence across the board at NT, but you must remember that this is an athletic's site.

another member of this forum made the claim in this thread that Eagle Point was needed for UNTs "mandate" by THECB to be 45,000 students

first there is no "mandate" by THECB for enrollment and second all academic programs can easily be fit east of I-35 or at TI

so someone else made the claim I did not. I pointed out why Eagle Point was not needed at all for academics or athletics

second UNT has discussed putting the Hotel Restaurant program at Eagle Point and another program that I will not name at this time because I am waiting for the possibility that UNT actually makes the stupid decision to place that particular program at Eagle Point.......which is what they are possibly "studying the hotel" for

and I was 100% correct about the south dallas campus and UNT and royce west were 100% wrong....I have been proven correct on that issue time and again and they have been proven wrong time and again....so I will point that out

UNT is also now wasting valuable time and resources and money on the downtown UCD as well.....and they have already over promissed and under delivered to THECB and THECB is getting tired of it

Edited May 30, 2008 by CheckFacts

UNTflyer · May 30, 2008

and I was 100% correct about the south dallas campus and UNT and royce west were 100% wrong....

What a burden it must be to exist in your flawless state. I'd now like to see you walk across Lake Lewisville.

CheckFacts · May 30, 2008

What a burden it must be to exist in your flawless state. I'd now like to see you walk across Lake Lewisville.

if you are OK with UNT wasting millions of dollars to provide degrees that are not in demand to an extremely limited number of students that is your opinion

if you are OK with most if not all of the professional programs mentioned for UNT being tied to dallas that is your opinion

if you are OK with a university ignoring the needs of its "flagship" campus and instead putting all of its efforts into dallas.....that is your opinion

I voiced my opinions on the issue when it was first started and was met with childish arguments and race baiting in favor of the dallas campus

now that it has failed and UNT has still not addressed a number of issues on its "flagship" campus I will voice my opinion that UNT has tied themselves to a pig that feeds at the public trough to the detriment of ALL students of higher education in Texas

if you feel you can provide information against my opinions and the FACTS that are now evident to all (except you and a few others) then please provide your information to back up your opinions

I don't think you can provide anything to show that UNT is not wasting valuable time and resources in south and central dallas.....except personal shots

I would welcome someone showing something to prove me wrong......but no one has as of yet

Green P1 · May 30, 2008

What a burden it must be to exist in your flawless state. I'd now like to see you walk across Lake Lewisville.

You jest, but he'll do it just to spite Mean Green fans...

CheckFacts · May 30, 2008

You jest, but he'll do it just to spite Mean Green fans...

not a chance in hell

have you seen the way people drive on the I-35 bridge :lol:

Baby Arm! · May 30, 2008

I have to admit I enjoy Check Facts' addition to the board. Face it, the entertainment value on here has taken a nose dive akin to the housing markets since the lack of hurricane predictions, the absence of Green Grenade, and PMG rants seem to be fewer and further between lately.

Personally I'm glad to see the 'wack job' vaccum being filled by Check Facts

Edited May 30, 2008 by Baby Arm!

gangrene · May 30, 2008

if you are OK with UNT wasting millions of dollars to provide degrees that are not in demand to an extremely limited number of students that is your opinion
if you are OK with most if not all of the professional programs mentioned for UNT being tied to dallas that is your opinion
if you are OK with a university ignoring the needs of its "flagship" campus and instead putting all of its efforts into dallas.....that is your opinion
I voiced my opinions on the issue when it was first started and was met with childish arguments and race baiting in favor of the dallas campus
now that it has failed and UNT has still not addressed a number of issues on its "flagship" campus I will voice my opinion that UNT has tied themselves to a pig that feeds at the public trough to the detriment of ALL students of higher education in Texas
if you feel you can provide information against my opinions and the FACTS that are now evident to all (except you and a few others) then please provide your information to back up your opinions
I don't think you can provide anything to show that UNT is not wasting valuable time and resources in south and central dallas.....except personal shots
I would welcome someone showing something to prove me wrong......but no one has as of yet

Speaking of UNT-Dallas, there was an interesting editorial by Shawn Williams in today's DMN. Here's the link and here's the story:

Shawn Williams: The case for UNT-Dallas

06:02 PM CDT on Thursday, May 29, 2008

The University of North Texas at Dallas deserves more support from our city and more attention from its citizens than it has received thus far. Dallas has a chance to address a shameful civic designation – the title of largest city in America without a four-year public institution of higher learning. We can erase that label by ensuring that UNT-Dallas becomes that first free-standing school as soon as possible.

A new college is not as flashy as a football stadium or a gigantic outlet mall, but its impact would be far greater. We draft ex-athletes and celebrities to help spread good news and drum up support for those arenas and malls, so I propose we do the same for UNT-Dallas. For starters, why not identify and recruit a local personality who can partner with the campus' CEO, John Ellis Price, to raise community awareness about the school?

Certainly, this school still faces enormous challenges. It was recently announced that UNT-Dallas will not even become a stand-alone campus, independent of the main Denton campus and offering its own degrees, until fall 2010 – at the earliest.

The school was originally set to open in 2007; that date was moved to 2009 when enrollment did not pick up as fast as officials had hoped. Current enrollment stands at 766 full-time students.

While this delay is a prudent move by Mr. Price and North Texas Chancellor Lee Jackson, every effort must be made to ensure that the opening date doesn't slip further.

I can't help but wonder if the school's southern Dallas location has affected its ability to reach its goal of 1,000 full-time-equivalent students. The Houston School Road campus is situated in one of the most scenic parts of Dallas, with great access to Interstates 20 and 35E. Yet this area of southeast Oak Cliff is also one of the most forgotten sections of our city.

In reality, the school's location presents an opportunity, not a negative, when you consider its proximity to many DISD schools. The state's Closing the Gap plan calls for getting an additional 500,000 students to participate in higher education. According to the report, "reaching the goal will require increasing participation from every population group, but especially Hispanics and blacks."

Those two groups make up 90 percent of the DISD student population and would make a solid base for the burgeoning campus. A public school here would help cut down on the expenses of moving away for college or the commuting costs for those looking at Arlington, Denton or Commerce.

Additionally, UNT-Dallas is offering scholarships of up to $2,500 to students who take on a full load of daytime classes. I'd like to see the city match that scholarship for DISD graduates who meet university's scholarship requirements. Given that finances are generally the major factor for students who are trying to decide between colleges, such aid could be another way to help reach that 1,000-student goal.

The time is now for the people of Dallas to stand behind the University of North Texas at Dallas. State Sen. Royce West mustn't be the only person in town championing the university. Let's not squander this opportunity to achieve something so great.

Shawn Williams is a community advocate and writer who publishes the Dallas South blog. His e-mail address is shawn@dallassouthblog.com.

Cerebus · May 30, 2008

another member of this forum made the claim in this thread that Eagle Point was needed for UNTs "mandate" by THECB to be 45,000 students
first there is no "mandate" by THECB for enrollment and second all academic programs can easily be fit east of I-35 or at TI

THECB has informed UNT administrators that it plans to relieve over crowding at UT/aTm by having students attend other public schools in Texas. TT and UNT are the top places they want students to go to. The THECB wants UNT to be able to support 45k students, and soon.

How do you expect UNT to expand east of 35? They are bounded by private property. Profitable private property for the most part. "Cement City" is a cash machine. Students are very unhappy about having to take a bus across town to the IT plant. Why would you have them do that when a much shorter trip across I35 is possible. You won't be able to eminent domain anything east of 35 either, when you have so much University owned land just on the other side.

So no, I don't see how NT could EASILY fit the needed expansions on the east side of 35 or at TI.

Green Mean · May 30, 2008

THECB has informed UNT administrators that it plans to relieve over crowding at UT/aTm by having students attend other public schools in Texas. TT and UNT are the top places they want students to go to. The THECB wants UNT to be able to support 45k students, and soon.

On that note, how would they have students attend public schools? Other than not being accepted by UT and A&M I am not seeing how the THECB would do that?

UNTLifer · May 30, 2008

another member of this forum made the claim in this thread that Eagle Point was needed for UNTs "mandate" by THECB to be 45,000 students
first there is no "mandate" by THECB for enrollment and second all academic programs can easily be fit east of I-35 or at TI
so someone else made the claim I did not. I pointed out why Eagle Point was not needed at all for academics or athletics

As Cerebus stated above, The THECB has informed UNT admin that overcrowding issues at UT and A&M will be relieved at UNT. Eagle Point has allowed the construction of an additional dorm with another in the master plan. Again, there are no academic programs on the Eagle Point campus.

second UNT has discussed putting the Hotel Restaurant program at Eagle Point and another program that I will not name at this time because I am waiting for the possibility that UNT actually makes the stupid decision to place that particular program at Eagle Point.......which is what they are possibly "studying the hotel" for

The Hotel Restaurant program should be placed in the hotel on Eagle Point to provide the students with valuable experience. U of Houston has a Hilton on its campus and is recognized as one of the best programs in the nation. As Cerebus pointed out, where would you put a hotel one the main campus side of I35.

if you are OK with a university ignoring the needs of its "flagship" campus and instead putting all of its efforts into dallas.....that is your opinion

Let's see, new dorms, new Rec Center, new Environmental Sciences Bldg, new Chemistry Bldg, new COBA Bldg, new dorms, etc... Yep, I would say the needs are being ignored in Denton.