Will It Happen?

[UNTflyer]

checkfacts,

I was wondering are you a UNT Alum? If not where did you graduate and etc?

Yeah, notice the poster said he was a student at one time... not, "I am a graduate"

[Eagle1855]

I dont have the time to find a facepalm picture to post...so perhaps just a mention of it will sufice.

All this guy is doing is presenting dissenting opinions from those commonly held by the majority of this board...and one that he has clearly taken the time to research. Is his research accurate? I don't know...I'd rather penalty kill at work researching Sun Belt Basketball recruiting classes and know that my UNT degree helped land me a good job and will be of great assistance in reaching my future goals.

Its guys like CheckFacts who keep our board from becoming Hilltopper Haven were every thread is 5 pages of posts exclaiming how great we are...there are faults and all this guys doing is pointing them out. Try contributing a refute rather than a personal attack.

thank you for posting this.

Keep an open mind, peoples! Our University is not beyond criticism, nor should it be. Why take personal shots at a person that has CLEARLY spent more time researching it than any of the people calling him/her names?

Edited May 20, 2008 by Eagle1855

[Go_UTA]

Checkfacts has educated himself on the state of education, particularly in Texas. Sure, I think athletics if it can be done without gross spending deficits are well and good. They contribute to school spirit and notoriety, but Checkfacts is absolutely right as to what achieves real institutional stature: funded research, faculty productivity, endowed faculty positions, faculty publications, etc. He is also right that there are too many systems in Texas, (In fact, there are only 2 or 3 real systems), and that the creation of the tiny and unneeded Dallas campus is a terrible waste of resources. I further concur with his statements about the UT System. The UT System provides best-in-class accountability and holds its universities to high standards of performance and progress. It has excellent services for its campuses. I'll also throw-in that UC Davis is a GREAT university; all of the UC campuses are stellar which is why one of UT Arlington's aspirational peers is UC Santa Cruz.

Texas has 2 tier I state universities; U of H can make a claim to being the next closest and should probably be brought forward. The Houston area needs one. Tech is trying, and may make it; however, they are handicapped by their utter isolation and lack of major airport access. After that, I believe that 4 UT System universities will do the job next in some order. I'm talking about Arlington, Dallas, El Paso, and San Antonio.

Much of the building to become Tier I will have to be "do it yourself" by each campus. The state probably isn't going to suddenly start bestowing significant extra funding on a select few. That's why focus on the factors that Checkfacts mentions are of critical importance. Any aspirant that isn't focused on them will be left behind. I think UNT is focused on them now, but they have essentially squandered the 2000s. Pohl was a great guy, but he didn't know what he was doing. Last I heard, he is now running an aviation school in Arizona. Probably a great job, but that says something about suitability to run a major campus. Bataille is the real deal and trying to fix things. UNT's wide and deep doctoral offerings are definitely one of your strengths. UNT's weakness is its research, which is why you see your university suddenly "getting religion" and setting up research clusters. However, to a large degree, your academic strengths don't lend themselves to gathering funded research. Institutions with deep and wide engineering and science offerings have the leg up.

UT Arlington has been mentioned a few times in this thread, and some of it is B.S. which I won't even bothering answering directly. However, let me highlight the key differentiator right now between UTA and UNT, and why UNT is at the bottom of the Emerging Research List, as CheckFacts has been saying: research. In the early 2000s UNT and UT Arlington were neck-in-neck in research. In fact, around 2000, UNT was slightly ahead by a few hundred thousand. Now, let me give you some firm figures. In 2004, UNT did $15.6 million, and UTA did $22.4 million. In 2007, UNT did $14 million, and UT Arlingon did $40 million. Do you see some trends here? Which university has been focused on building itself as a research institution? This, I believe, is what alarms your competent current adminstration. Believe me, f-ball and our recent basketball success, while helpful and fun, doesn't have squat to do with this. UT Arlington is FOCUSED in becoming a $100 million a year research institution. This is evidenced by breaking ground in 2008 on $143 million of engineering and science RESEARCH buildings with more directly in the pipeline for probably 2009.

I hope you get your stadium and everything. That would be an image boost. I'm not taking anything away from that.

[Green Mean]

Checkfacts has educated himself on the state of education, particularly in Texas. Sure, I think athletics if it can be done without gross spending deficits are well and good. They contribute to school spirit and notoriety, but Checkfacts is absolutely right as to what achieves real institutional stature: funded research, faculty productivity, endowed faculty positions, faculty publications, etc. He is also right that there are too many systems in Texas, (In fact, there are only 2 or 3 real systems), and that the creation of the tiny and unneeded Dallas campus is a terrible waste of resources. I further concur with his statements about the UT System. The UT System provides best-in-class accountability and holds its universities to high standards of performance and progress. It has excellent services for its campuses. I'll also throw-in that UC Davis is a GREAT university; all of the UC campuses are stellar which is why one of UT Arlington's aspirational peers is UC Santa Cruz.

Texas has 2 tier I state universities; U of H can make a claim to being the next closest and should probably be brought forward. The Houston area needs one. Tech is trying, and may make it; however, they are handicapped by their utter isolation and lack of major airport access. After that, I believe that 4 UT System universities will do the job next in some order. I'm talking about Arlington, Dallas, El Paso, and San Antonio.

Much of the building to become Tier I will have to be "do it yourself" by each campus. The state probably isn't going to suddenly start bestowing significant extra funding on a select few. That's why focus on the factors that Checkfacts mentions are of critical importance. Any aspirant that isn't focused on them will be left behind. I think UNT is focused on them now, but they have essentially squandered the 2000s. Pohl was a great guy, but he didn't know what he was doing. Last I heard, he is now running an aviation school in Arizona. Probably a great job, but that says something about suitability to run a major campus. Bataille is the real deal and trying to fix things. UNT's wide and deep doctoral offerings are definitely one of your strengths. UNT's weakness is its research, which is why you see your university suddenly "getting religion" and setting up research clusters. However, to a large degree, your academic strengths don't lend themselves to gathering funded research. Institutions with deep and wide engineering and science offerings have the leg up.

UT Arlington has been mentioned a few times in this thread, and some of it is B.S. which I won't even bothering answering directly. However, let me highlight the key differentiator right now between UTA and UNT, and why UNT is at the bottom of the Emerging Research List, as CheckFacts has been saying: research. In the early 2000s UNT and UT Arlington were neck-in-neck in research. In fact, around 2000, UNT was slightly ahead by a few hundred thousand. Now, let me give you some firm figures. In 2004, UNT did $15.6 million, and UTA did $22.4 million. In 2007, UNT did $14 million, and UT Arlingon did $40 million. Do you see some trends here? Which university has been focused on building itself as a research institution? This, I believe, is what alarms your competent current adminstration. Believe me, f-ball and our recent basketball success, while helpful and fun, doesn't have squat to do with this. UT Arlington is FOCUSED in becoming a $100 million a year research institution. This is evidenced by breaking ground in 2008 on $143 million of engineering and science RESEARCH buildings with more directly in the pipeline for probably 2009.

I hope you get your stadium and everything. That would be an image boost. I'm not taking anything away from that.

Your post was wonderful and right on the dot. The only thing I was saying is that Athletics CAN be a facilitator to all of this with more pride which means more involvement with the university, more connection, more donations, more money and etc. You are right that ultimately a university is most valuable by its faculty and strong research and unfortunately UNT is just not there right now in comparison to many other schools. I believe Dr. B is trying to change that and we will slowly but surely but its all a work in progress. The stadium would be a huge image boost and I do think athletics can in some ways faciliate other things in a university such as academics.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I took a real estate class once with John Baen and he said yes that we are all public schools but UT and A&M get a ton of money through some oil deal made back in the day. He said so many millions upon millions of dollars came from this agreement and these two schools were apart of recieving the money but NT and other schools were not. I think somone who knows this situation more can comment much more clearly and more detailed but he said that is why NT is considered "poor" and UT and A&M are extremely extremely wealthy, always have been and always will be.

--I am now guessing that you are not a native Texan or just slept though Texas History class.. When Texas joined the Union in 1845, we kept our public lands. Most Western states have a lot of federal land, forests, deserts, etc. which was acquired by way of the lLouisana Purchase or Mexican War. There are almost none in Texas except The Big Bend , a National Park. Much of this state land became what is now known as University Land was to used to establish a couple of universities in the State (UT and A&M) . Most people considered this land near worthless at the time and a lot of it is around me in West Texas. They were wrong...many years later oil was found on them (Santa Rita #1, near Big Lake) and this land is now very valuable, not on the surface which is leased for cattle grazing but for the mineral rights. There was no real "oil deal" it just happened to be there. All this money went to two universities... UT and A&M and it got so large they had way too much money to spend.

-- Here comes the mid 1960's and the baby boom which was the result of the depression and WWII hits college age. the state's answer was to "pull off" what California was doing....a multi-college state university system... and create a bunch of UT's so that could use this really large fund. In 1966?? UTEP was renamed from Texas Western and Arlington State became UTA..... which gave them more money and the the rest of us now got the money they had been receiving. Note there was a lot of new buildings at UNT during the late 60's and early 70's. We and Arlington had had the least class space per student until this took place. As time has passed more and more colleges have been added (Kingsville, Commerce, UT-D, UT-PB, UT-SA, Canyon and even more.... all pulling from this fund which is financed with West Texas Oil which was set up over 120 years ago....prior to oil revenue. It is now getting rich again considering the oil prices.

---We in Texas have no income tax (one of very few states) ... partially because as Texans we don't have to finance all these colleges with state tax money... our public lands (oil) does most of it... ( but not TTU and UNT) .... We are now 49th in the nation in state taxes per capita. [yet those idiots in Austin still want to cut state taxes... not to citizens really (to corperations) .. about all we citizens pay is sales, gasoline, tobacco, and alcohol taxes. None of those have been cut, some raised (the sin taxes -LOL ) . Property taxes are local taxes and the state is cutting state educational funding which cause our local taxes to go up..

Your prof (non-Texan?) did not state it correctly or you remembered it incorrectly but the result is the same..All of the UT's and A&M's have a lot of money available to them that we don't have. .

Edited May 20, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Green Mean]

--I am now guessing that you are not a native Texan or just slept though Texas History class.. When Texas joined the Union in 1845, we kept our public lands. Most Western states have a lot of federal land, forests, deserts, etc. which was acquired by way of the lLouisana Purchase or Mexican War. There are almost none in Texas except The Big Bend , a National Park. Much of this state land became what is now known as University Land was to used to establish a couple of universities in the State (UT and A&M) . Most people considered this land near worthless at the time and a lot of it is around me in West Texas. They were wrong...many years later oil was found on them (Santa Rita #1, near Big Lake) and this land is now very valuable, not on the surface which is leased for cattle grazing but for the mineral rights. There was no real "oil deal" it just happened to be there. All this money went to two universities... UT and A&M and it got so large they had way too much money to spend.

-- Here comes the mid 1960's and the baby boom which was the result of the depression and WWII hits college age. the state's answer was to "pull off" what California was doing....a multi-college state university system... and create a bunch of UT's so that could use this really large fund. In 1966?? UTEP was renamed from Texas Western and Arlington State became UTA..... which gave them more money and the the rest of us now got the money they had been receiving. Note there was a lot of new buildings at UNT during the late 60's and early 70's. We and Arlington had had the least class space per student until this took place. As time has passed more and more colleges have been added (Kingsville, Commerce, UT-D, UT-PB, UT-SA, Canyon and even more.... all pulling from this fund which is financed with West Texas Oil which was set up over 120 years ago....prior to oil revenue. It is now getting rich again considering the oil prices.

---We in Texas have no income tax (one of very few states) ... partially because as Texans we don't have to finance all these colleges with state tax money... our public lands (oil) does most of it... ( but not TTU and UNT) .... We are now 49th in the nation in state taxes per capita. [yet those idiots in Austin still want to cut state taxes... not to citizens really (corperations) .. about all we only pay is sales, gasoline, tobacco, and alcohol taxes. None of those have been cut, some raised (sin taxes -LOL ) . Property taxes are local taxes and the state is cutting state educational funding which cause our local taxes to go up..

Your prof (non-Texan?) did not state it correctly or you remembered it incorrectly but the result is the same..UT and A&M has a lot of money available to them that we don't have. .

Thank you for your insignt sir. Actually I was born and raised in Texas and though I aced all my history classes, I do not remember much of it if any of it. As for John Baen, he is a native Texan. Obviously I was not a hundred percent sure on how accurate I was but I knew there was something to that effect in which was a huge advantage for UT and A&M having much money.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Thank you for your insignt sir. Actually I was born and raised in Texas and though I aced all my history classes, I do not remember much of it if any of it. As for John Baen, he is a native Texan. Obviously I was not a hundred percent sure on how accurate I was but I knew there was something to that effect in which was a huge advantage for UT and A&M having much money.

I have an unfair advantage... I live in the middle of those university lands.... (West Texas and oil fields) plus I was in school when it all hit the fan during the 60's and the state had to find more money to finance colleges... and UT and A&M had more money than they could spend... Bet I am a bit older as well. Thanks for your kind comment... Some times being an old geezer is good... we have had more time to learn.

That guy trying to argue has not been out in the world in the world long enough to understand what an athletic program can do for a college. He may be a CS student but so so were my "kids" and they understand it. You don't learn everything in a book or from one or two people. Some never do. You need to learn all your life. Some universities never refer to their alums as ex-students or even former students because they hope their alums keep learning all their life.

SE-1966

Edited May 20, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Censored by Laurie]

thank you for posting this.

Keep an open mind, peoples! Our University is not beyond criticism, nor should it be. Why take personal shots at a person that has CLEARLY spent more time researching it than any of the people calling him/her names?

Our inferiority complex is truly amazing at times...perhaps some posters ought to by the university a sports car and a case of enzyte.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/ClosingtheGaps/UnivMeasRank.xls

again at the bottom IEE tab

TEXAS A&M UNIVERSITY 5,673.83 16

U. OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN 5,388.89 18

TEXAS TECH UNIVERSITY 4,948.16 21

U. OF TEXAS AT ARLINGTON 4,772.37 25

U. OF TEXAS AT DALLAS 5,735.69 14

U. OF TEXAS AT EL PASO 4,993.72 19

U. OF TEXAS AT SAN ANTONIO 4,109.49 28

UNIVERSITY OF HOUSTON 4,970.19 20

UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS 3,973.68 31

State APRR PER FTSE.......in the realm of higher education every dollar counts, but that is no where near the huge "rich" advantage some feel it is

look at the administration cost while you are at it

Not exacly sure whast I am reading but it appears that the main UT and A&M campus have more than 30% more... that is a huge difference and as the fund gets larger they are continuiously adding more schools to that fund... TTU, Houston and NT maybe TSSM are the only really large schools not in that fund. If your paycheck went up 30% or more... I think you would notice it and would have a lot more to spend... Our basic amount covers what is needed... the 30% extra would really change what extras we could do. On the personal level having an income to meet basic needs and getting 30% more is very noticeable.

[emmitt01]

Perhaps I was out of line was referring to check facts as a "smarmy bastard" but my original question still stands. This thread began as a poll asking whether we thought a stadium was on the horizon. Even if you accept the premise that every one of us uses LSD and then makes our pie in the sky assumptions about the role athletics plays in academia or that a new stadium will make unicorns fall from the sky I ask again, what is the real benefit in "educating" us? From what part of the spirit of altruism does correcting people on a conjecture board (let's be honest, that's all this is) does putting us in our place stem from? I could easily troll a Lord of the Rings message board and tell them that their Frodo costume probably won't be a hit with the ladies...but their delusions really don't hurt anybody nor are they in any position to affect real change in the situation. I guess you could argue that we should be more vocal towards our admistration but let's be honest...they're not listening or we wouldn't need this thread to begin with would we?

I am in no way attempting to be the representative for the Mean Green Inquisition refusing to acknowledge all truth and burning those who speak it...just wondering where the cornucopia of knowledge really gets Joe Fan.

[Censored by Laurie]

Perhaps I was out of line was referring to check facts as a "smarmy bastard" but my original question still stands. This thread began as a poll asking whether we thought a stadium was on the horizon. Even if you accept the premise that every one of us uses LSD and then makes our pie in the sky assumptions about the role athletics plays in academia or that a new stadium will make unicorns fall from the sky I ask again, what is the real benefit in "educating" us? From what part of the spirit of altruism does correcting people on a conjecture board (let's be honest, that's all this is) does putting us in our place stem from? I could easily troll a Lord of the Rings message board and tell them that their Frodo costume probably won't be a hit with the ladies...but their delusions really don't hurt anybody nor are they in any position to affect real change in the situation. I guess you could argue that we should be more vocal towards our admistration but let's be honest...they're not listening or we wouldn't need this thread to begin with would we?

I am in no way attempting to be the representative for the Mean Green Inquisition refusing to acknowledge all truth and burning those who speak it...just wondering where the cornucopia of knowledge really gets Joe Fan.

Orwell and the Ministry of Truth would be very proud of this post: Ignorance is Bliss.

[CMJ]

So my questions are....

Is Checksfacts a former poster....because he sure seems to know alot about us and past discussions(referencing one that was about 2 years ago)?

And if not...how long has he lurked here?

Edited May 20, 2008 by CMJ

[emmitt01]

if you are more vocal....it could get you a law school attached to the "flagship" campus instead of a south dallas waste.....of course officer Jackson (not the idiot jackson that runs UNT dallas) might like UNT Dallas now that it has the cop shop program going for it

and you could be more vocal that the 16.69 million the state gave to UNT for south dallas and the 35 million dollar loan they were allowed to take out where better spent in Denton

and you could demand the administration stop trying to fake enrollment numbers and stop lobbying to have them lowered so UNT Dallas can become a full campus......and you can demand they stop planning for 16,000 to 20,000 students that will NEVER come and start concentrating on building a more student friendly and research intensive campus in Denton.....and demand that the system center be merged in with the nearest community college where it belongs

or you can pretend that athletics and "perception" based off of athletics will prevent UTA, UTSA, and UTEP from passing you up in research and university ACADEMIC stature

we have seen the forum meltdowns over the stadium.....wait until UH, UTSA, UTEP, and UTA leave UNT behind as the largest 4th tier school in Texas .....we will need to take the font and color buttons off the forum just to keep plummy sane

and his post legible

Ok, I'll agree with you on every single point...except the UNT-Dallas cop shop program, never heard of it.

But my question is this: If we took every single breath, every keystroke we spend talking about a stadium and directed it towards "demanding" the things you list...would NT's administration pay a moment's attention? I, unfortunately, do not think they would.

I think, like George Bush, that they would ignore the numbers, the facts and the ground swell of public opinion if we we brought it...and just march on with the "plan" they have in place.

Oh yeah, and I've always thought Jackson (the chancellor, not me) was a mistake.

P.S. CBL, you should know by now that blissful ignorance is indeed alive and well...we "promise" to have a stadium by 2010.

[CMJ]

I have lurked here 5-6 years

Then why the sudden volume of posts? It's not that I don't appreciate the diiscussion(it's rather interesting), but we have had stuff about the future of UNT & its system before. I'm not sure why hijacking a stadium thread would serve your purpose better than posting in one of those would have.

And, I'm not sure 100% but I believe we were a System before ever trying to start UNT-Dallas(doesn't the existence of the Health & Science center make us one?), so I'm not sure we really needed it for Hulrey to have a legacy. Maybe they genuinely thought it could work.

[Stan R]

loyalfan? is that you? Only longtime posters would know who I'm referring to...

[Go_UTA]

I'm not so sure Hurley was the devil, even if he had a hand in the mistake in south Dallas.

Interesting comment about Bataille's background to form a research university. I don't think her background is necessarily a handicapp if she understands academia, which she does. However, I was surprised at the background of the provost, given Bataille's background. I mean, the provost is very qualified, but she has the same kind of language-type background as Bataille. They come from the same cut of cloth, which is not technical. I would have thought that ONE OF THEM should be from the hard sciences or engineering, which is not the case.

[UNTLifer]

Anybody else have tired head?

So, how about that stadium...will it happen?

[untphd]

Anybody else have tired head?

So, how about that stadium...will it happen?

Quite tired. The stadium will happen.

[Stan R]

Quite tired. The stadium will happen.

Will I be drawing social security first? I'm only 33.

[GreenMachine]

damn, I'm glad my boss doesn't know how crappy my degree is. I just got a promotion over a schmuck from SMU, a homer Aggie, and a girl from Iowa State.

Wait a second, I forgot. I did get a good education from NT and have continued learning and growing. That along with drive, ambition, and desire to be the best goes a long way in the real world.

[Green Mean]

Anybody else have tired head?

So, how about that stadium...will it happen?

Honestly, I dont have tired head. The points checkfacts is making are very relevant and we need to keep all of this in mind since its for our university and for the future of this institution. checkfacts seems to be very well informed and though he may be very blunt in what he states, its all valid stuff. Things like this definitely would be nice if it was taken up to the UNT administration. I am not sure how much that will be effective but I suppose the more we fight, the more of a chance we have at making our university a much finer instution all the way around from athletics and academics.

[UNTLifer]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I want NT to be the finest in everything, academics, research, athletics, etc..., but I didn't come on the football board and click on a thread about the stadium to be educated on the ills of NT.

Yes, NT neglected many areas throughout the years and many areas need improvement, but it is far from being the "State School" of four year universities in the state of Texas. The blame is endless among past administrations who all share in our current state of affairs.

[Go_UTA]

Oh, don't get me wrong. I want NT to be the finest in everything, academics, research, athletics, etc..., but I didn't come on the football board and click on a thread about the stadium to be educated on the ills of NT.

Yes, NT neglected many areas throughout the years and many areas need improvement, but it is far from being the "State School" of four year universities in the state of Texas.

True. That is why UNT is one of 7 classified as "emerging research institution." You are not just another state university. There are several groupings below, and only one above.

(And, you could have stopped reading this thread on p. 2 or 3 if it bothers you.)

[UNTLifer]

True. That is why UNT is one of 7 classified as "emerging research institution." You are not just another state university. There are several groupings below, and only one above.

(And, you could have stopped reading this thread on p. 2 or 3 if it bothers you.)

By "State School" I meant a school for the mentally challenged, such as The Denton State School.

I just love it when a UTA grad comes on here and tells me when to and not to read a thread on a website dedicated to my school's athletic program.

[untphd]

True. That is why UNT is one of 7 classified as "emerging research institution." You are not just another state university. There are several groupings below, and only one above.

(And, you could have stopped reading this thread on p. 2 or 3 if it bothers you.)

Belongs in a different forum.