Time For The Elimination Of The Pit Bull

[FirefightnRick]

Imagine that being your daughter lying there. For some reason the urge to type comedic sarcasm leaves me.

Rick

[greenminer]

a zoo

[FirefightnRick]

Denver and Miami are among the approximately 200 cities that have elected to prohibit pit bulls entirely.

Denver's pit bull law forbids any person from "owning, possessing, keeping, exercising control over, maintaining, harboring, or selling" a pit bull in the City and County of Denver.

Last weekend, Denver's pit bull ordinance made national headlines when 36 pit bulls were confiscated from a home and euthanized. Approximately 1,100 pit bulls have been euthanized by Denver Animal Control in the past year, according to statistics provided by the Animal Farm Foundation, a pit bull rescue organization.

Obviously the leadership of the City of Denver gets it!

Rick

Edited May 23, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[KingDL1]

From Rick's article:

Pit bulls were historically bred as hunters and fighters, trained to display dominance and aggression toward other dogs. In recent years, negligent breeders have capitalized on these traits, training or cross-breeding pit bulls to produce hostile, poorly-treated dogs, explained Lori Weise, founder of Downtown Dog Rescue, a shelter for abused, abandoned or injured dogs.

Pit bulls are also popular with careless owners who see the breed as a symbol of status or strength, she said. According to Weise, while these kinds of people make up a majority of pit bull owners, they're also the least likely to ensure that their dogs are trained, socialized and properly spayed or neutered, creating a living environment most likely to cause dogs to be aggressive.

Pit bull advocates adamantly maintain that attacks are almost always attributable to either these reckless breeders or owners, and are not the result of a dog's inherent nature.

The Alabama Supreme Court agrees, ruling in 2002 that no genetic evidence exists that one individual dog is more dangerous than another, simply because of its breed.

Last December, the American Temperament Test Society put 25,000 dogs through a standardized drill designed to assess a dog's stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness while in the company of people. The result for pit bulls?

An 83.5 percent passing rate for American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers and an 84.7 percent passing rate for the Staffordshire Bull Terrier -- this in comparison to the 81.2 percent average passing rate for all dog breeds.

Eliminating a breed is ridiculous. Their suggestions are much more sensible, leave it up to licensed and reputable breeders.

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

Imagine that being your daughter lying there. For some reason the urge to type comedic sarcasm leaves me.

Rick

I'm sorry if you took my post as making light of dog attacks. It was aimed at the rediculous suggestions made by Adman (who was obviously using sarcasm as well).

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

From Rick's article:

Eliminating a breed is ridiculous. Their suggestions are much more sensible, leave it up to licensed and reputable breeders.

As much as I dislike the breed of pitbulls, I'd have to agree with this solution or something similar like required yearly vet exams so that vets can monitor the behavior and demeanor of the dogs (which is usually the result of how they are raised).

However, that still won't totally eliminate the problem, but maybe it would make people think twice before getting the dog.

Strangely enough, this topic seems similar to gun control debates...pit bulls = AK47's?

[LongJim]

While I was in Austin in the early/mid '80's, I worked with a guy (who was 24 at the time) who would regularly come to work on Mondays and brag about how he 'faught his dogs', or how he'd done in the ring that weekend. I disregarded what he was talking about as bullsh!t, because he had a tendency to stretch the truth at times. One of the things he mentioned was that he wanted to see which ones he could 'make fight', because they brought the most money at stud.

The other thing he said--although this may have been a load--is that he would 'train' the animals by encouraging them to attack other, smaller animals in order for them to learn to follow commands. He specifically told me he used kittens or other pups for this. I'm not so sure he was joking now.

Point is--owners of these animals have been breeding this trait into these dogs for well over 25 years. The gene pool is being altered to favor dogs that are unpredictable/vicious. Buying from a reputable breeder is one thing, but drive over to 183 over by Ridgmar on the weekend, and see how many puppies you see being sold out of Bubba's pickup. THAT's where the problem is.

Regarding Chows: When my brother and I were about 14-15, we used to mow lawns for money in Justin where we grew up. There was one old bag that we cut grass for that had a big black Chow in her back yard that would make you shart if you came too close to it. We had to make sure the crazy old biddy locked it up before we proceeded.

By far the most fear I have ever felt from a dog before or since.

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

Regarding Chows: When my brother and I were about 14-15, we used to mow lawns for money in Justin where we grew up. There was one old bag that we cut grass for that had a big black Chow in her back yard that would make you shart if you came too close to it. We had to make sure the crazy old biddy locked it up before we proceeded.

By far the most fear I have ever felt from a dog before or since.

I've never thought of chows as being aggressive. Guess I haven't been around them enough. Good to know, though.

[FirefightnRick]

From Rick's article:

Eliminating a breed is ridiculous. Their suggestions are much more sensible, leave it up to licensed and reputable breeders.

It isn't rediculous, it's smart, responsible government. I'll take the oppinion of the countless animal control handlers, emergency workers(including myself) and the entire UK, which is where Bull baiting/dog fighting originated over the ATTS temperament test. But let's look at their Temperament testing for a second.

The ATTS test focuses on and measures different aspects of temperament such as stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness as well as the dog's instinct for protectiveness towards its handler and/or self-preservation in the face of a threat. The test is designed for the betterment of all breeds of dogs and takes into consideration each breed's inherent tendencies.

The test simulates a casual walk through the park or neighborhood where everyday life situations are encountered. During this walk, the dog experiences visual, auditory and tactile stimuli. Neutral, friendly and threatening situations are encountered, calling into play the dog's ability to distinguish between non-threatening situations and those calling for watchful and protective reactions.

A casual walk through the park? LOL!!! That's classic. And their stats make little since to me and proves nothing really. The 83.8% score for the Pit Bull isn't actually a score, it's the percent of dogs that passed their test, which is a judgement of a person, not a performance in any one area. On the otherhand, the German Shepard, the breed that is widely chosen and most recognized in the working classification for Police work scored an 83.5%. The city of Fort Worth purchases their police dogs from a variety of the the European Police K9 training company's at a cost of $8,000 plus. The standard breed used for this type of work is the German Shepard because of their ability to handle it. The German Shepard is the most chosen dog to do one of the most important jobs on earth yet the ATTS tries to play it off as scoring lower than an American Pit Bull in their temperament test? Right??????? And all the goofy Pit Bull advocates are referencing this ATTS pass percentage to justify the breed even though ATTS only tested 586 American Pits to get that 83.8% pass percentage yet they only tested 2875 German Shepards to get 83.5%. Meaning, only 494 American Pits passed as opposed to 2401 German Shepards.

Still, non of these temperament tests mean a thing really. Many of the maulings recorded lately are by the loving, family pet who turns on it's own owner for no reason. Not just during a walk in the park but over time. No one seems to really know why although there's a lot of speculation, mostly that it's just a trait of the breed that has been bred into them since the 18th century. But the UK has now completely banned the breed and now 200 cities and towns in the U.S. have followed suit. In the least, in the least, it should be required to have a license to own one, just as it's required to own exotic cats. But for me it's easier to just do away with them all together. Their bloodline is ruined and there's no going back.

Rick

Edited May 23, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[yyz28]

and the entire UK,

Let's not get carried away. Guns are banned in the UK - they can't be right about everything...

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Rick-- I AM WITH YOU... A few years ago the big news on local news TV was a lady getting chewed up by a neighbor's pit bull. We went on a trip Carlsbad (caves) and guess what the headline news on TV was there? "Pit Bull kills some older lady". The next night we went to El Paso. The big story on local TV news... A pit Bull had chewed up some kid and someone that had saved the kid. That was three nights, three places, and three pet pitbulls that were considered nice that had chewed up someone including killing one person. They may have a place as a junkyard or as a security animal.. but I have hear too many bad stories since about them... I support not allowing them in residential neighborhoods, those things are psycho, one day they are your friend and then the next they decide to tear you up for no reason... Just because they are nice one day... don't bet they will be nice tommorrow.

Edited May 23, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[KingDL1]

It isn't rediculous, it's smart, responsible government. I'll take the oppinion of the countless animal control handlers, emergency workers(including myself) and the entire UK, which is where Bull baiting/dog fighting originated over the ATTS temperament test. But let's look at their Temperament testing for a second.

A casual walk through the park? LOL!!! That's classic. And their stats make little since to me and proves nothing really. The 83.8% score for the Pit Bull isn't actually a score, it's the percent of dogs that passed their test, which is a judgement of a person, not a performance in any one area. On the otherhand, the German Shepard, the breed that is widely chosen and most recognized in the working classification for Police work scored an 83.5%. The city of Fort Worth purchases their police dogs from a variety of the the European Police K9 training company's at a cost of $8,000 plus. The standard breed used for this type of work is the German Shepard because of their ability to handle it. The German Shepard is the most chosen dog to do one of the most important jobs on earth yet the ATTS tries to play it off as scoring lower than an American Pit Bull in their temperament test? Right??????? And all the goofy Pit Bull advocates are referencing this ATTS pass percentage to justify the breed even though ATTS only tested 586 American Pits to get that 83.8% pass percentage yet they only tested 2875 German Shepards to get 83.5%. Meaning, only 494 American Pits passed as opposed to 2401 German Shepards.

Still, non of these temperament tests mean a thing really. Many of the maulings recorded lately are by the loving, family pet who turns on it's own owner for no reason. Not just during a walk in the park but over time. No one seems to really know why although there's a lot of speculation, mostly that it's just a trait of the breed that has been bred into them since the 18th century. But the UK has now completely banned the breed and now 200 cities and towns in the U.S. have followed suit. In the least, in the least, it should be required to have a license to own one, just as it's required to own exotic cats. But for me it's easier to just do away with them all together. Their bloodline is ruined and there's no going back.

Rick

But for me it's easier to just do away with them all together. Their bloodline is ruined and there's no going back.

Rick this is simply not true. The inbred assholes that backyard breed probably, but most come from reputable breeders and these are the Pits you never hear about. Not like the media goes out to paint a picture good side of the Pits.

What next Chows, Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, German Shepards, Alaskan Malamutes, Huskies, Presa Canario, Boxer, Dalmatian, Akitas, Great Danes etc...

Top Ten (10) Most Dangerous Dog Breeds

Add labs to the list

The stats

The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)

Other breeds were also responsible for homicides, but to a much lesser extent. A 1997 study of dog bite fatalities in the years 1979 through 1996 revealed that the following breeds had killed one or more persons: pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, huskies, Alaskan malamutes, Doberman pinschers, chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. (Dog Bite Related Fatalities," Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, May 30, 1997, Vol. 46, No. 21, pp. 463 et. seq.) Since 1975, fatal attacks have been attributed to dogs from at least 30 breeds.

The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.)

First outlawing a breed is just about impossible to do, then you are subject to the enforcement by individuals that have to make a guess as to what mix your dog may be.

Read here for just some problems:

RSPCA Quits Dangerous Dogs Panel Over Deed not Breed Argument

This is a sad and shallow argument that is pursuing the symptom and not the cause. The Cause is dumbass people, please understand that. Regulate breeding and make the fines and punishment worse. There are lots of alternatives, that are much better to deal with this issue and help to bypass the idiot owners.

Not to mention what a dangerous mind set this is, it is the same argument used to try and ban guns. I want my guns, I don't want my dog put on some arbitrary list because people scare themselves, and I sure as hell don't want some dog catcher telling one day that my dog looks like it maybe a dangerous breed and it needs to be put down.

Don't open Pandora's Box

Edited May 24, 2008 by KingDL1

[KingDL1]

Here is a 20 year report, notice that Pits lead the over all stats for fatal attacks but Rots lead heavily each of the last three years as that breed has became more popular in the US. In this report 25 breeds have caused fatal bites, and in other articles since this was published another 5 breeds have been identified. Do you really want to go down this road?

Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks

in the United States between 1979 and 1998

Punish the idiot owners and backyard breeders that want to have tough dogs or fighters. They are the source of the problem not the breeds.

[meangreendork]

Punish the idiot owners and backyard breeders that want to have tough dogs or fighters. They are the source of the problem not the breeds.

Your logic is spot-on here.

Pit bulls are also popular with careless owners who see the breed as a symbol of status or strength, she said. According to Weise, while these kinds of people make up a majority of pit bull owners, they're also the least likely to ensure that their dogs are trained, socialized and properly spayed or neutered, creating a living environment most likely to cause dogs to be aggressive.

I also bet if someone did a study on those attacks, you'd find that the majority of pit bulls involved in attacks are owned by people like that.

Let's not get carried away. Guns are banned in the UK - they can't be right about everything...

In the UK, it's guns and knives now. Soon, it'll be scissors. Seriously, banning a breed of dog is essentially another step in the direction of stupid things like a national gun ban. And let's not even get all of GMG started on a national gun ban because I'd like to think we all understand that while law enforcement does its best to prevent crimes, they can't be there at the moment someone smashes into your home.

Punish the idiot owners and backyard breeders that want to have tough dogs or fighters. They are the source of the problem not the breeds.

Agreed.

[DeepGreen]

This may be cruel to some, but this is how some SE Texans deal with the pit bull problem. I don't like pit bulls, but this is little over the top in my opinion.

Pitt Bulls

[KingDL1]

This may be cruel to some, but this is how some SE Texans deal with the pit bull problem. I don't like pit bulls, but this is little over the top in my opinion.

Pitt Bulls

If they are bad dogs I have no problem with it.

It looks like San Francisco got it right:

Pit Bull Ordinance

The Term unaltered refers to a dog that has not been spayed or neutered.

Pit Bull Ordinance

A new law is now in effect that makes it illegal to own an unaltered pit bull - or pit bull mix - in San Francisco. Also in effect is San Francisco Health Code Section 44, which requires owners to obtain a permit from Animal Care and Control in order to breed their pit bull or pit bull mixes. These laws went into effect after the Governor signed SB 861 into law - paving the way for cities and counties to create legislation specific to spaying and neutering of particular breeds of dogs.

[SilverEagle]

I'm guessing that the reason you see more Pit Bulls than Chows is cost. As someone mentioned earlier, you can go over to 183 by Ridgemar Mall and find Bubba selling (or giving away) Pit Bulls out of the back of his truck. My guess is that Chows are much more expensive to acquire.

And BTW congratulations to the city of Fort Worth for banning the selling, and giving away, of dogs on the street.......like ol'Bubba over on 183.

I'm all for holding the owners of Pitt Bulls responsible for the mayhem that their dogs cause. But most of those "owners" would deny ownership once their four legged phallic symbols do something horrible to some helpless person. That's just their cowardly (and low-life) nature.

I join Rick in applauding the City and County of Denver for banning these dogs.

Besides, it's the only time that I've seen Rick agree with a bunch of Liberals.

[FirefightnRick]

Some of you continue to ignore the fact that many of these maulings are by the family pet Pit Bull, raised from a puppy and then turns on it's own family. And yes, Pits are cheap, unlike most of the other breeds responsible for the other registered fatalities. The two mastiffs in california that killed that female coach, were probably $1,000 each depending on the breeder. To hear of deaths by mastiffs is a rarity and isn't anywhere in the ball park of the rising numbers of Pit attacks nation wide. And as I have stated countless times now, I work in the shit, most of you don't. You don't see what I see. I don't see Chows, Rottwielers or mastiffs. I see Pits on every street and there's attacks all the time that don't even make a blip in the papers or on TV. It's the same that the responsible locals in other cities saw and acted appropriately by banning the ownership of them and realizing a drop in attacks like Denver and Aurora has. At my station we get called out to the east side Dog park, the one that has been recognized nationally for it's style and accomodation, because some otherwise RESPONSIBLE Pit Bull owner brought their dog and it's mauled someone elses dog or owner. I mean, it's beyond rediculous now. The breed's bloodline is destroyed. I don't see it ever being able to recover.

I certainly don't expect all of you to get it. I fully understand how easy it is to sit there in your office and judge my oppinion about what I see:

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Rick

Edited May 24, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[KingDL1]

Some of you continue to ignore the fact that many of these maulings are by the family pet Pit Bull, raised from a puppy and then turns on it's own family. And yes, Pits are cheap, unlike most of the other breeds responsible for the other registered fatalities. The two mastiffs in california that killed that female coach, were probably $1,000 each depending on the breeder. To hear of deaths by mastiffs is a rarity and isn't anywhere in the ball park of the rising numbers of Pit attacks nation wide. And as I have stated countless times now, I work in the shit, most of you don't. You don't see what I see. I don't see Chows, Rottwielers or mastiffs. I see Pits on every street and there's attacks all the time that don't even make a blip in the papers or on TV. It's the same that the responsible locals in other cities saw and acted appropriately by banning the ownership of them and realizing a drop in attacks like Denver and Aurora has. At my station we get called out to the east side Dog park, the one that has been recognized nationally for it's style and accomodatoin, because some otherwise RESPONSIBLE Pit Bull owner brought their dog and it's mauled someone elses dog or owner. I mean, it's beyond rediculous now. The breed's bloodline is destroyed. I don't see it ever being able to recover.

I certainly don't expect all of you to get it. I fully understand how easy it is to sit there in your office and judge my oppinion about what I see:

Rick

Rick I understand you are emotionally attached to your position, but saying the bloodline is destroyed is to ignore the facts. In NY my Grandmothers Neighbor had their 6 year old girl's face half ripped off by a German Shepherd, and at one point they thought she would die, but the doctors got her face all reattached but she was pretty disfigured. It was the family dog though they would tell you what a great dog it was, but I always thought they mistreated it. We had a female driver at UPS in Grand Prairie get bit in the face by a Rot. Don't kid yourself any big dog can be on the shit list especially if it is in low income areas where tough dogs seem to be some kind of status symbol. If there is enough of them and they are treated wrong you will have the same problem. To say it was the family pet raised from a puppy tells me nothing but it was either mis-bred or treated wrong.

[FirefightnRick]

Rick I understand you are emotionally attached to your position, but saying the bloodline is destroyed is to ignore the facts. In NY my Grandmothers Neighbor had their 6 year old girl's face half ripped off by a German Shepherd, and at one point they thought she would die, but the doctors got her face all reattached but she was pretty disfigured. It was the family dog though they would tell you what a great dog it was, but I always thought they mistreated it. We had a female driver at UPS in Grand Prairie get bit in the face by a Rot. Don't kid yourself any big dog can be on the shit list especially if it is in low income areas where tough dogs seem to be some kind of status symbol. If there is enough of them and they are treated wrong you will have the same problem. To say it was the family pet raised from a puppy tells me nothing but it was either mis-bred or treated wrong.

As I said, go ahead and ignore what I say, it's ok. I understand that you don't know what your talking about. Don't read the reports of the owners stating time after time again that they have never seen that type of behavior in their Pit Bull before. Go ahead and link a post to a 10 YEAR OLD study to justify this to continue. Go ahead, ignore those accounts, of first time maulings in which the family pet never showed agression before until now, like the woman did two weeks ago in Fort Worth. Explain that to her 3 year old grandaughter. Go ahead, it's ok.

Rick

[KingDL1]

As I said, go ahead and ignore what I say, it's ok. I understand that you don't know what your talking about. Don't read the reports of the owners stating time after time again that they have never seen that type of behavior in their Pit Bull before. Go ahead and link a post to a 10 YEAR OLD study to justify this to continue. Go ahead, ignore those accounts, of first time maulings in which the family pet never showed agression before until now, like the woman did two weeks ago in Fort Worth. Explain that to her 3 year old grandaughter. Go ahead, it's ok.

Rick

Rick, people always say that their dog was a saint whether it is a pit, a rot, a chow, a Shepherd, or whatever. What are they going to say? "Wow, whenever I beat that dog it would show its teeth and try to bite everyone, but I thought is good idea to leave it alone with the kido."

The Rot that bit the Female UPS driver in the face, the people said the same thing, but later UPS found out the same dog had bit at least three other people.

And for breeds, I have been around professional breeders and there is a huge difference between getting two buddies' Pits together and having pups, especially in the hood. Verses breeding out bad temperament and breeding in stable gentle dogs.

[GreenBat]

Rick,

I'll back your proposed elimination of pit bulls once Guns, both hand guns and rifles, are eliminated. More people are killed by guns than are killed by Pit Bulls.

[greenminer]

Rick,

I'll back your proposed elimination of pit bulls once Guns, both hand guns and rifles, are eliminated. More people are killed by guns than are killed by Pit Bulls.

No guns!!?

Have you seen what's out there? I take it you haven't read Emmitt's police thread...

[UNTflyer]

I think the solution is not in eliminating pit bulls, but holding their owners criminally liable for the harm they cause. And I'm talking up to involuntary manslaughter if your dog kills a human.

[FirefightnRick]

Rick,

I'll back your proposed elimination of pit bulls once Guns, both hand guns and rifles, are eliminated. More people are killed by guns than are killed by Pit Bulls.

Yeah, and the majority of those killed by guns, used them on themselves!!!!! I don't have a problem with that at all. People who use the guns to kill, can reason. Pit's can't. They attack for NO reason and children are most of their victims. Guns and Pits, two complete different topics.

Rick