Nt Football 1958: Have We Really Upgraded The Program

[NT80]

In honor of my upcoming (June) 50th birthday I bought and received a 1958 NT media guide off eBay. BTW, my parents lived in Des Moines, Iowa at the time and NT played there (Drake) in Oct 1958, but I don't think I attended the game. Of course I would of had I known....

Anyway, a look at the schedule made me ponder: "have we made progress or have others simply progressed past us?"

1958 home games:

UTEP

NMSU

Tulsa

Cincinnati

Houston

1958 away games:

Okla State

Drake

BYU

Wichita

Louisville

The point is, because of many reasons too numerous to name here, I don't think we are where we should be at this time in our history. A new stadium will certainly help our image, but we need to realign again with some of those schools in our past, and catch up ASAP! The '58 home schedule looks better to me than the current '08 home schedule.

Edited May 8, 2008 by NT80

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

In honor of my upcoming (June) 50th birthday I bought and received a 1958 NT media guide off eBay. BTW, my parents lived in Des Moines, Iowa at the time and NT played there (Drake) in Oct 1958, but I don't think I attended the game. Of course I would of had I known....

Anyway, a look at the schedule made me ponder: "have we made progress or have others simply progressed past us?"

1958 home games:

UTEP

NMSU

Tulsa

Cincinnati

Houston

1958 away games:

Okla State

Drake

BYU

Wichita

Louisville

The point is, because of many reasons too numerous to name here, I don't think we are where we should be at this time in our history. A new stadium will certainly help our image, but we need to realign again with some of those schools in our past, and catch up ASAP! The '58 home schedule looks better to me than the current '08 home schedule.

What saddens me is that we used to be in a conference with Louisville, Tulsa, Memphis, Cincinnati...Houston! Now, all of those schools have better deals.

You know what? We all have various complaints about what is or isn't being done and who is or isn't responsible. But, I think we can all agree that the decision to go down the I-AA level set us back so far that we are still playing catch up.

As a note, here's a neat All-MVC thing they did back in 2006. Some pretty good football players - and coaches were in the MVC:

THE 1950s

Name School Pos. Yrs.~ Notable Honors

Johnny Bright Drake RB 1951 College Football Hall of Fame; 1951 - 5th in Heisman voting; MVC Hall of Fame

Paul Carr Houston LB 1953 2-time all-MVC; 4-year NFL career with the San Francisco 49ers

Jack Conway Wichita State QB 1955 two-time all-MVC; helped Wichita State to back-to-back titles

Abner Haynes North Texas State RB 1959 all-American in 1959; No. 28 retired by NFL’s Kansas City Chiefs

Jack Lee Cincinnati QB 1959 2-time all-MVC; 11-year AFL career with Kansas City, Houston and Denver

Marvin Matuszak Tulsa G 1952 2-time all-MVC; two-time All-American; 11-year career in the AFL and NFL

Ted Marchibroda Detroit QB 1952 All-MVC in 1952; 4-year NFL player; 12-year NFL head coach - Baltimore, Indianapolis

Dale Meinert Oklahoma A&M DT 1954 2-time all-MVC; St. Louis Cardinals (1960-67)

Ronnie Morris Tulsa QB 1952 3-time all-MVC; Tulsa Hall of Fame

Joe Morrison Cincinnati RB 1957 14-year playing career with the New York Giants

Lee Riley Detroit DB 1954 2-time all-MVC; 7-year NFL playing career

Bob St. Clair Tulsa E 1952 one of three Tulsa players in the Pro Football Hall of Fame; five-time Pro Bowl selection

Howard Waugh Tulsa RB 1952 2-time all-MVC; No. 3 career rusher (2,597 yards); Tulsa Hall of Fame

Hogan Wharton Houston OT 1959 Two-time MVC Lineman of the Year; Houston Oilers (1960-63)

*COACH: 1947-56 -- J.O Brothers (Tulsa) -- 4 MVC titles in his seven years as coach

THE 1960s

Name School Pos. Yrs.~ Notable Honors

Billy Guy Anderson Tulsa QB 1965 all-MVC in 1965; No. 14 retired at Tulsa; single-season passing record (3,464 yards)

Doug Buffone Louisville LB/C 1965 all-MVC in 1965; No. 56 retired at Louisville; 15-year career at LB with Chicago

Joe Greene North Texas State DT 1968 College Football Hall of Fame; 1968 consensus All-American; 3-time all-MVC

Cedric Hardman North Texas State DE 1969 6-time NFL Pro Bowl selection with the San Francisco 49ers and Oakland Raiders

Glen Holloway North Texas State OG 1969 2-time all-MVC; 5-year NFL career with the Chicago Bears and Cleveland Browns

Roland Lakes Wichita State C 1960 2-time all-MVC; 11-year NFL career with San Francisco 49ers and New York Giants

Jim O’Brien Cincinnati PK/SE 1969 2-time all-MVC; 2-time honorable mention All-America; won Super Bowl V with a FG

Brig Owens Cincinnati DB 1964 12-year NFL defensive back with the Washington Redskins

Bill Parcells Wichita State LB 1963 all-MVC in 1963; long-time NFL coach - winner of two Super Bowls (XXI and XXV)

Steve Ramsey North Texas State QB 1969 3-time all-MVC; No. 1 in career in pass yards (7,076) and TDs (69)

Jerry Rhome Tulsa QB 1964 College Football Hall of Fame; 1964 - 2nd in Heisman voting; No. 3 in career TDs (42)

Ronnie Shanklin North Texas State WR 1969 2-time all-MVC; No. 3 in career receptions (144) and yards (2,465)

Willie Townes Tulsa DT 1965 all-MVC in 1965; member of Tulsa Hall of Fame; 4-year NFL playing career

Howard Twilley Tulsa WR 1965 College Football Hall of Fame; 1965 - 2nd in Heisman; No. 1 catches (261) and yards (3,343)

*COACHES: 1957-66 -- Odus Mitchell (North Texas) -- 3 MVC titles; 3-time runners-up

1957-66 -- Marcelino “Chelo” Huerta (Wichita State) -- College Football Hall of Fame; 1963 MVC Coach of the Year

THE 1970s

Name School Pos. Yrs.~ Notable Honors

Steve August Tulsa OL 1976 all-MVC in 1976; All-American in 1976; 8-year NFL career with Seattle, Pittsburgh

Andy Dorris New Mexico State DE 1972 all-MVC in 1972; 9-year NFL career with New Orleans, Houston, St. Louis, and Seattle

Rick Dvorak Wichita State DL 1973 3-time all-MVC; 5-year NFL career with New York Giants and Miami

Paul Skeeter Gowen Memphis RB 1971 2-time all-MVC; 1969 MVC Sophomore of the Year; 2-time HM All-American

Tunch Ilkin Indiana State OL 1979 14-year NFL career; 13 seasons with the Pittsburgh Steelers

Tom Jackson Louisville LB 1972 2-time MVC Player of the Year; three-time all-MVC; 14-year NFL career with Denver

Steve Largent Tulsa WR 1975 14-year NFL career with the Seattle Seahawks, Pro Football Hall of Fame

Drew Pearson Tulsa WR 1972 11-year NFL career with the Dallas Cowboys

Joe Pisarcik New Mexico State QB 1973 8-year NFL player with the New York Giants and Philadelphia Eagles

Bo Robinson West Texas State RB 1978 3-time all-MVC; No. 1 in career rushing yards (3,542)

Lovie Smith Tulsa DB 1979 3-time all-MVC; 1978 All-American; Chicago Bears head coach; Tulsa Hall of Fame

Mike Stark Memphis OL 1971 3-time all-MVC; first-team AP All-American in 1971

Howard Stevens Louisville RB 1972 2-time all-MVC; 5-year NFL career with the New Orleans Saints and Baltimore Colts

Rickey Watts Tulsa WR 1978 all-MVC in 1978; 5-year NFL playing career

*COACHES: 1967-76 -- F.A. Dry (Tulsa) -- 4-straight MVC titles from 1973-76

1967-76 -- Billy Murphy (Memphis) -- 3-time MVC Coach of the Year

THE 1980s

Name School Pos. Yrs.~ Notable Honors

Sid Abramowitz Tulsa OL 1982 two-time all-MVC; All-American in 1982; 4-year NFL playing career

Clarence Collins Illinois State WR 1983 all-MVC in 1983; No. 2 in career receptions (147) and yards (2,498)

Jumpy Geathers Wichita State DL 1983 13-year career in the NFL with New Orleans, Washington, Atlanta, and Denver

Vencie Glenn Indiana State DB 1985 MVC Defensive Player of the Year 1985; 10-year NFL career with 5 different teams

Michael Gunter Tulsa RB 1983 2-time all-MVC; No. 2 in career rushing yards (3,536)

Kevin Lilly Tulsa DL 1984 3-time all-MVC; 2-year NFL playing career

Prince McJunkins Wichita State QB 1982 2-time all-MVC; No. 2 career total offense (6,591 yards)

Jeff Miller Indiana State QB 1985 2-time MVC Player of the Year; 3-time all-MVC; No. 1 career total offense (7,559 yards)

Mike Prior Illinois State DB 1984 3-time All-American; No. 1 in career interceptions (23); 13-year NFL career

Terry Taylor Southern Illinois DB 1983 2-time all-MVC; 12-year NFL career with Seattle, Detroit, Cleveland, and Atlanta

Amero Ware Drake RB 1982 3-time all-MVC; No. 3 career rusher (3,217 yards)

Fredd Young New Mexico State DL 1982 7-year NFL player; 4-time NFL Pro Bowl Selection as LB for Seattle Seahawks

*COACH: 1977-85 -- John Cooper (Tulsa) -- 5-straight MVC titles from 1980-84

Edited May 8, 2008 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

What saddens me is that we used to be in a conference with Louisville, Tulsa, Memphis, Cincinnati...Houston! Now, all of those schools have better deals.

You know what? We all have various complaints about what is or isn't being done and who is or isn't responsible. But, I think we can all agree that the decision to go down the I-AA level set us back so far that we are still playing catch up.

---It is a bit tough to judge the 1958 schedule by todays standards...... some teams have changed a great deal. For example Florida State and Miami weren't on anyone's radar then. Houston was not well known then but later improved and put into the SWC as team #9 and now is down some again.

---I too am a bit sad about losing the MVC teams especially when it comes to basketball... We are not even close to what we were then in status. The old MVC was great and constantly had several ranked teams. The games were fun and the crowds were really into them.

---I really like Hayden Fry but he gambled and we lost when we pulled out of the MVC, and went independent . We may have been invited to join the Metro with Louisville, Cincinnati, etc. which later became CUSA, I'm just not sure. He was certain we would be invited as the tenth member of the SWC... which would have changed everything. UT (Royal) and Arkansas (Broyle) really supported us. We lost out on a 6-3 vote and we only needed 7 votes. SMU, TCU and Baylor (all private schools and fairly close) voted against us. Sometimes the door opens and is never open again for a long time. SMU was very vocal about not wanting us as a member, I don't remember the others saying much. I think they feared a large state supported school in the same conference near them plus Fry was an ex-coach of SMU. I don't put any blame on Fry because it could have really paid off...... the trouble is... it didn't......

---About 5 years later we were dropped to I-AA status..... I think it was more about being "forced" into I-AA than chosing it (crowd and stadium size were some of the issues) . Lamar and UT-Arlington were "forced down" also and their programs did not survive and they dropped football.. West Texas State kept football but at a much lower level of competition.

Edited May 8, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[greenminer]

Who was at the AD helm when we had guys like Haynes playing and Fry coaching?

[TIgreen01]

---It is a bit tough to judge the 1958 schedule by todays standards...... some teams have changed a great deal. For example Florida State and Miami weren't on anyone's radar then. Houston was not well known then but later improved and put into the SWC as team #9 and now is down some again.

---I too am a bit sad about losing the MVC teams especially when it comes to basketball... We are not even close to what we were then in status. The old MVC was great and constantly had several ranked teams. The games were fun and the crowds were really into them.

---I really like Hayden Fry but he gambled and we lost when we pulled out of the MVC, and went independent . We may have been invited to join the Metro with Louisville, Cincinnati, etc. which later became CUSA, I'm just not sure. He was certain we would be invited as the tenth member of the SWC... which would have changed everything. UT (Royal) and Arkansas (Broyle) really supported us. We lost out on a 6-3 vote and we only needed 7 votes. SMU, TCU and Baylor (all private schools and fairly close) voted against us. Sometimes the door opens and is never open again for a long time. SMU was very vocal about not wanting us as a member, I don't remember the others saying much. I think they feared a large state supported school in the same conference near them plus Fry was an ex-coach of SMU. I don't put any blame on Fry because it could have really paid off...... the trouble is... it didn't......

---About 5 years later we were dropped to I-AA status..... I think it was more about being "forced" into I-AA than chosing it (crowd and stadium size were some of the issues) . Lamar and UT-Arlington were "forced down" also and their programs did not survive and they dropped football.. West Texas State kept football but at a much lower level of competition.

Ok...here's the thing I don't understand about the Hayden Fry years: We DROPPED out of the MVC and went independent for what purpose? The SWC thing didn't come around for 3-4 years. If this is really the way it was done, then I don't know why Fry doesn't get criticized for it....I mean, you wouldn't quit a job before you HAD ANOTHER one to go to. So why quit a conference when we weren't already IN another? What about going independent was going to help us? I know it was a different time and conference membership may not have mattered as much....just looking for some historical background/perspective on this.

[ShopMeanGreen]

Shows how important the conference is. I lay a lot of blame on Dr. Hurley et al for the tremendous short sightedness of the importance of athletics to the overall academic quality of the university. I don't know all of the details, some of you really old people may, about the events that caused Coach Fry to leave but I hink NT was making a lot of noise over the SWC and if things had continued in the same direction NT would not have gone down to 1AA and been in a better conference today. IMHO

[Huff]

Greenminer asked abut who the AD was at the time of Abner Haynes and Hayden Fry. They were really at different times. Abner Haynes last year at North Texas was for the 1959 football season. Hayden Fry was hired following the 1972 season. At the time that Abner Haynes played at North Texas the duties of the athletic director was given to the man who was head of the Men's Physical Education department. Dr. Jess Cearley is the name that I remember. I am not sure if he was still in place when Hayden arrived but at some point in time Hayden became Athletic Director in addition to being head football coach. Until Hayden arrived all the football coaches taught classes in the men's physical education department and earned tenure as teachers. As a result of that, many of them were able to stay at North Texas after their coaching days ended. That changed when Hayden arrived. They became full time coaches with no teaching duties.

[KRAM1]

Lots of blame to go around...lots of places to lay the blame...BUT, that is the past...not much anyone can do about it. We may want to consider working in the present time and not worrying about the past as there really is not much we can do about that! I recall games in the old pit for basketball where the place was completely full on a regular basis and we were playing nationally ranked MVC teams....way cool, but, if I were a betting man, I would bet that we will not go back to playing games in the old pit! What I mean is that as much as I recall in the past in glowing terms and with golwing memory, it is not in the past where I now find myself...nor is it where the UNT athletic program finds itself. Remember, UNT went down to 1-AA for several years for several reasons...$$$$ and attendance being a big part I would imagine.

Yes, Dr. Hurley did not support our athletic programs very well...at least not the way they are getting support today for moving forward with both facilities and scheduling and coaches salaries, and quality, etc., etc. But, Dr. Hurley is no longer in charge...that, too is the past.

I would love to be in a "better" conference (I for one am not certain Conference USA is much if any of an upgrade nor is the WAC), but UNT is probably where it needs to be right at this moment...let's win the Sunbelt again and then see what happens...or let's create a new SW Conference with teams near and dear to "our hearts". While UNT might (MIGHT) like a conference with Baylor, SMU, TCU, Tulsa, Houston, Tulane, Rice, etc., etc. (hey, remember it could be a road trip to New Orleans...come on think about it!) I wonder what those scholls might think about it. Not an easy thing to pull off. Let's get the new stadium and then see what happens.

I appreciate and fully understand the thought in looking at where we were "in the past"...yes, good things some of them, but also remeber that memory can be a "selective" thing. For me, I am looking forward, not backwards to all the good things happening, planned and to be planned at UNT!

GO MEAN GREEN, GO EXES, GO MEAN GREEN CLUB!

Mark

[Baby Arm!]

---It is a bit tough to judge the 1958 schedule by todays standards...... some teams have changed a great deal. For example Florida State and Miami weren't on anyone's radar then. Houston was not well known then but later improved and put into the SWC as team #9 and now is down some again.

---I too am a bit sad about losing the MVC teams especially when it comes to basketball... We are not even close to what we were then in status. The old MVC was great and constantly had several ranked teams. The games were fun and the crowds were really into them.

---I really like Hayden Fry but he gambled and we lost when we pulled out of the MVC, and went independent . We may have been invited to join the Metro with Louisville, Cincinnati, etc. which later became CUSA, I'm just not sure. He was certain we would be invited as the tenth member of the SWC... which would have changed everything. UT (Royal) and Arkansas (Broyle) really supported us. We lost out on a 6-3 vote and we only needed 7 votes. SMU, TCU and Baylor (all private schools and fairly close) voted against us. Sometimes the door opens and is never open again for a long time. SMU was very vocal about not wanting us as a member, I don't remember the others saying much. I think they feared a large state supported school in the same conference near them plus Fry was an ex-coach of SMU. I don't put any blame on Fry because it could have really paid off...... the trouble is... it didn't......

---About 5 years later we were dropped to I-AA status..... I think it was more about being "forced" into I-AA than chosing it (crowd and stadium size were some of the issues) . Lamar and UT-Arlington were "forced down" also and their programs did not survive and they dropped football.. West Texas State kept football but at a much lower level of competition.

Lot of misinformation, myth, or urban legend regarding our supposed entry into the SWC. I prefer to get the story from the horses' mouth. Hayden Fry.

Read it for youself in his autobiography. Chapter 15 North Texas State pp 89-98. Hayden Fry book

[NT80]

The attendance average at NT games today is similar to game averages in the late 60's and late 70's when NT was doing well, but NT then also had less than half the enrollment of today.

More '58 NT fun facts from the media guide....Denton population was 29,000, NT enrollment was 6212, AD was Emmett Cambron, Coach was Odus Mitchell. Fouts seated 20,000 as opened in 1952. The NT SID's local Denton phone number was DUpont 2-6711 , area media outlets mentioned were DRC, KDNT, Campus Chat, DMN, Dallas Times Herald, UPI, KRLD, WFAA radio and TV, FWST, WBAP radio and TV, and KFJZ-TV (NT station?).

[Cerebus]

KFJZ-TV (NT station?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFJZ

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Ok...here's the thing I don't understand about the Hayden Fry years: We DROPPED out of the MVC and went independent for what purpose? The SWC thing didn't come around for 3-4 years. If this is really the way it was done, then I don't know why Fry doesn't get criticized for it....I mean, you wouldn't quit a job before you HAD ANOTHER one to go to. So why quit a conference when we weren't already IN another? What about going independent was going to help us? I know it was a different time and conference membership may not have mattered as much....just looking for some historical background/perspective on this.

--About if not the same year we left... Louisville and Memphis left the MVC and I think Cincinnati had already left a couple of years earlier. We may have been the last to decide to leave... that I don't know. The MVC was coming apart or at least most of the football playing schools were. Lots of travel was part of it and not a lot of non-football schools in the league... Bradley, St. Louis and maybe some more. Wichita stayed but had recently lost its entire team to a plane crash at Loveland Pass, Colorado and was barely recovering from that. Tulsa was still there and NMSU and West Texas State had just joined.... again a long way from Louisville and Memphis. The MVC had a lot of problems at this point. It was not very stable at this point and the MVC football conference no longer exists.

Otherwise... Houston had left the MVC many years earlier and been admitted to the SWC as a ninth team. The Pac-8 had just become the PAC-10. (added both Ariz. colleges from the WAC) . The NCAA had just changed the football season from a 10 game season to a 11 game season (one more game). NT was doing very well at this point in football and basketball and Fry expected the SWC to admit us to make the SWC 10 teams as was the Big-10 and Pac-10.. I think the SEC had 10 and the ACC was considering it... both Texas and Arkansas was on our side and wanted to go to ten teams and most of the others in the conference seemed to be ok with it. [they probably wanted another larger college since TCU and Rice especially were very small and very weak at this time, SMU was fairly decent but small, 5000?] That would mean 9 conference games and 2 non-conference games. Times were somewhat different in that there was no ESPN, and few games on TV and little TV revenue (radio and attendance mainly) and not so many across country games. ..... the SWC looked very promising. It was obvious that SMU did not agree but not so sure about TCU, Baylor, Rice, and Tech. Tech and Rice voted for us and the metroplex group decided they would not --likely because SMU convinced them they did not want a large state school in the area. I do not blame Fry at all.... it just did not work... it was worth the risk... and SMU convinced those other two to vote with them and we needed 7 votes, not just 6. ----This all from my memory so if any details are wrong I apologize.

The history of MVC tells me that the Big East will eventually come apart... the football guys and the non-football members will eventually split in my opinion. It is huge--- 16 teams, and only eight play football.. It looks like an accident that is ready to happen. Even during March Madness I heard a few comments on how ridiculously large it is.

Edited May 8, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Baby Arm!]

According to Hayden Fry, our membership in the SWC never came to a vote...

[UNTLifer]

Greenminer asked abut who the AD was at the time of Abner Haynes and Hayden Fry. They were really at different times. Abner Haynes last year at North Texas was for the 1959 football season. Hayden Fry was hired following the 1972 season. At the time that Abner Haynes played at North Texas the duties of the athletic director was given to the man who was head of the Men's Physical Education department. Dr. Jess Cearley is the name that I remember. I am not sure if he was still in place when Hayden arrived but at some point in time Hayden became Athletic Director in addition to being head football coach. Until Hayden arrived all the football coaches taught classes in the men's physical education department and earned tenure as teachers. As a result of that, many of them were able to stay at North Texas after their coaching days ended. That changed when Hayden arrived. They became full time coaches with no teaching duties.

That is correct. My father replaced Dr. Cearley.

[DeepGreen]

Thus ends the myth that SMU blocked our entry into the SWC.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Hindsight is always 20/20 - Fry did what he thought was best at the time and what he thought would move the program. Who knows, it might have been better to stay put where we were.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Thus ends the myth that SMU blocked our entry into the SWC.

---Not really.... just because there was no formal vote doesn't mean they did not oppose us. Why vote and put it on the record when it becomes obvious that it will not pass with the needed 7 votes. That happens all the time in Congress. It sure isn't exactly what was put out at the time.. The three could just as easily been obviously opposed to it and gave what ever public reason they want to say. SMU saying that we were inferior as an academic school fits the typical pattern of what they always claim (just another put-down) , after all they have always thought of themself superior to most places. I think this remark was very sugar coated from what I remember happening... Any old alums out there remember it otherwise??? --- or even a newspaper report from that time--- Fry still has some favorable relationship with SMU (former coach) and graduated from Baylor as their QB during the 1950's. . I doubt he would want to trash them if he could help it. Maybe we had a chance if he had stayed but it is believed one of reasons he left was it became clear to him we weren't going to be allowed in and also he wasn't getting as much fan/alum support that should have been there..

---At that time Houston was still refered to by many from Houston as Cougar High and to say we had lower standards is nuts, after all the SWC admitted Houston. I know nothing about Houston's academic standards today.

---Note this article is exactly what I said about Arkansas and Texas supporting us...also Houston. Obviously the "academic standards issue" was not an issue with them and Texas is not exactly a college with poor standards. I think the rest I said is pretty much correct as well...

Edited May 9, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[ShopMeanGreen]

Makes me a little sad. If Coach Fry had stayed and pushed for the SWC maybe NT would be in the Big 12 instead of Tech or Baylor. Not coming to a vote means nothing, everyone may still have voted no even thought they told NT they were in support. My point was not to dwell in the past but no matter what position we are in right now we must always push forward. We may be in the right spot next time the conferences are shaken up.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Who were the Mean Green Dollies of which coach Fry speaks?

[TheTastyGreek]

Who were the Mean Green Dollies of which coach Fry speaks?

The best face for any organization is the face of a pretty girl.

That was the concept behind the Mean Green Dollies, if I remember my history correctly.

[NT80]

Who were the Mean Green Dollies of which coach Fry speaks?

I believe they were similar to today's Eagle Angels. They would escort recruits at games and around campus tours.

[GreenAlums]

I believe they were similar to today's Eagle Angels. They would escort recruits at games and around campus tours.

Escorts!!!! Oh my goodness more penalties coming!

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

This subject has evolved to three parts:

Have we upgraded since 1958?

In 1958 we were in a conference with Houston, Cincinnati, Tulsa, and Louisville. We had a team that went to the Sun Bowl in 1959. Abner Haynes was an all-American. We were averaging in attendance about what we are now but it seemed like more since our stadium only held 20,000. Odus Mitchell was the coach and he's in the Texas Sports Hall of Fame. So no, we're not as well off as we were in 1958.

Should we have left the Missouri Valley Conference when we did?

Absolutely. By then, Houston and Cincinnati had bailed earlier; Memphis left the year before we did; Drake's football program had tanked, came back and was tanking again; Wichita State gave up football somewhere around that time; and Louisville left the same time that we did. All that was left that play FBS today were Tulsa and New Mexico State. Even MVC basketball had dwindled greatly.

Why didn't we get in the Southwest Conference and who was against us?Hayden said it. Noone was officially against us although several sniversities, notably the privates, had factions that used the academics argument against us, it was never publicized that anyone would have blackballed us over that. It was true that it was easier to get in North Texas than most of the other current 1-A schools except UTEP and maybe Houston. Our posture was often...you may can get in but can you stay? Many flunked out during that time.

I really think that the main reason was that Houston had just become the ninth member of the SWC a couple of years before. The announced posture was that the conference wanted to try nine members for awhile since that gave them four home and four away games each year. However, at the time I believe that there were three ten team conferences (the Big 10, Pac 10, and Atlantic Coast) and no other nine team conferences so their argument was relatively weak. The other factor was that Hayden Fry left to go to Iowa drying up Rex Cauble's and Newton Rayzor's (financial) support and there was no one to take up the cause. Maybe if Hayden's successor had the stature of a Howard Schnellenberger, say, we might have eventually made it to the Southwest Conference.

[FirefightnRick]

Maybe if Hayden's successor had the stature of a Howard Schnellenberger, say, we might have eventually made it to the Southwest Conference.

Quesiton for you Jack?

Wasn't the local aministration already fighting Coach Fry on many sides, mainly money being spent to shore things up?

Rick

[NT80]

Quesiton for you Jack?

Wasn't the local aministration already fighting Coach Fry on many sides, mainly money being spent to shore things up?

Rick

I recall from the movie "Coach" that when Fry came to NT from Smut he immediately wanted to upgrade the program, from uniforms (flying worm), to stadium (Texas Stadium) to opponents (UT and other big names). He contacted local businessmen and asked them in person for large donations, and got Bob Hope to come to a fund raiser at the Pit where he received honorary MGC membership! This upset some old nestors in Denton that liked the cheaper, quieter, slower pace of non big-time football. I never heard budget mentioned as a reason Fry left, but I believe it was a factor. Mostly mentioned was lack of Bowl invites, facilities, and attendance.