Brett Vito Answers Some Apr Questions

[SUMG]

(From the D-RC blog):

http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/

[SUMG]

(From the D-RC blog):

http://meangreenblog.dentonrc.com/

As you can see from reading that...apparently we've already done our appeals...had some good points on our side...and the NCAA still zapped us.

[FirefightnRick]

I still don't see the correlation to low penalties for BCS programs? How is it that so many are able to stay above the mark? Surely they too have high general graduation rates and high funding, but many of them never graduate? Look at how many have left tU's football program over the past two to three years due to leaving for the draft, transferring out or jail?

Rick

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I still don't see the correlation to low penalties for BCS programs? How is it that so many are able to stay above the mark? Surely they too have high general graduation rates and high funding, but many of them never graduate? Look at how many have left tU's football program over the past two to three years due to leaving for the draft, transferring out or jail?

Rick

---I guess when their name athletes leaves it becomes big news so we hear about them.... ours that leave probably don't make as much news. Obviously the class of 2007 (maybe 2006 actually if they have 5 years to graduate, and I think they do) was pretty bad for us. Also to be considered is that many of ours may have finished all 4 years of eligibility but didn't pick up a degree, that doesn't make the news but counts against us. Better funding means more pressure can be put on student-athletes when they stay in a central athletic dorm to monitor their activities which most BCS schools have... we didn't have much for the class of 2007. BCS colleges also probably take few fewer academic risks when recruiting than we do, our second option recruits may be a lot less talented and their's probably are close in ability so they go with the better risk in most cases.. Apparently UT had a lot of students graduate..... they may have not been a lot of the big name starters but they graduated and helped the program. Maybe we should give a few to honor grads that are lousy athletes but will graduate...LOL.... they might even improve the athletic department image at the same time...and inspire some of the others to do better.

Edited May 7, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[LAZER]

What a load of @#!%..... I do not know If I am just irritable because it is Finals week, but the NCAA and BCS are REALLY starting to tick me off. I do not see how all if it can be truly justified.

[filmerj]

This just sucks, we are going to hurt for years, in terms of wins, recruiting, all of it.

[PlummMeanGreen]

This just sucks, we are going to hurt for years, in terms of wins, recruiting, all of it.

Jerry Moore's big passion when he was the Mean Green HFC was to develop a walk-on program that would emulate the school we hired him from, ie,the U of Nebraska Cornhusker's football program.

Maybe its time to start thinking about emphasizing a major walk-on program in Denton again?

Our alma mater's location in the 7,000,000 plus populated North Texas Metroplex makes this do-able (and feasible I would think) compared to a sparsely populated NCAA D1-A collegiate outpost. Of course, there may now be NCAA rules curtailing walk-on programs.

GMG!

[GoMeanGreen1999]

What a load of @#!%..... I do not know If I am just irritable because it is Finals week, but the NCAA and BCS are REALLY starting to tick me off. I do not see how all if it can be truly justified.

I am not suggesting that the way the BCS schools keep the little guys down is right, but the fact remains, there are 6 major BCS conferences and the way those schools think and do things, they would just as soon keep it that way. Again, I am not saying it is right, but think of like this - if we were in the Big 12, and had been since the inception of it, we wouldn't be out there complaining that the way it is set up is not right to the little guys. The fact remains we are a "little" guy in this whole thing, trying to get respect from a group of schools that frankly don't care about the little ones until they need a team to play. And as the years go on, it probably will only get harder. I don't see a playoff system anytime soon in football, but when it does happen, those Presidents of the Big 6 schools will almost never agree to have one where they include the smaller conferences for automatic bids.

FFR - you are bringing up great questions about the descrepancies of the BCS schools and the smaller ones in relation to this rule, and I have no idea why it is. I would say that the bigger schools probably spend a lot more time on resources to make sure their numbers are numbers that won't reduce their scores, but how, I have no idea.

Edited May 7, 2008 by GoMeanGreen1999

[emmitt01]

Maybe we should have claimed that our athletic department is an alcoholic. That seems to get you some extra time.

[LAZER]

I am not suggesting that the way the BCS schools keep the little guys down is right, but the fact remains, there are 6 major BCS conferences and the way those schools think and do things, they would just as soon keep it that way. Again, I am not saying it is right, but think of like this - if we were in the Big 12, and had been since the inception of it, we wouldn't be out there complaining that the way it is set up is not right to the little guys. The fact remains we are a "little" guy in this whole thing, trying to get respect from a group of schools that frankly don't care about the little ones until they need a team to play. And as the years go on, it probably will only get harder. I don't see a playoff system anytime soon in football, but when it does happen, those Presidents of the Big 6 schools will almost never agree to have one where they include the smaller conferences for automatic bids.

WEll of course they do not want it changed. Why are they the people making the decision? Bottom line is that attending college is about getting an education. College athletics are not professional sports and all this BCS crap just makes the playing field not level. The BCS stops smaller schools from being able to recruit the top notch players because all players want a championship. It all builds and builds and I feel it has taken away what college athletics is supposed to be about.

[buff64]

I still don't see the correlation to low penalties for BCS programs? How is it that so many are able to stay above the mark? Surely they too have high general graduation rates and high funding, but many of them never graduate? Look at how many have left tU's football program over the past two to three years due to leaving for the draft, transferring out or jail?

Rick

If they left the program and they were still academically elgible they do not count against the program. If they leave school and are academically inelgible they do count against the school .

[untbowler]

The only major BCS school I saw that got slammed was Wash State who lost 8 scholarships. Others of note were Toledo and UAB both losing at least 8 scholarships. So if I read correctly the players who declare early do not count against the APR, as long as they were on track to graduate? even if they get a 0.0 GPA for their last semester?

[SUMG]

Here are the SBC scores and the schollies lost are in parentheses.

Football:

WKU 945 (0)

Ark Sta 934 (0)

Troy 930 (0)

UNT 917 (5)

FAU 915 (3)

ULM 912 (0)

ULL 903 (0)

MTSU 902 (0)

FIU 887 (3)

Basketball:

Denver 957 (0)

UALR 939 (0)

WKU 937 (0)

FAU 927 (0)

UNT 924 (1)

Troy 916 (0)

MTSU 906 (0)

Ark State 893 (0)

New Orleans 882 (0)

South Alabama 877 (1)

FIU 854 (1)

ULL 839 (0)

ULM 837 (0)

What hacks me off is...we're in the upper divisions...we get slammed. Several schools aren't passing on either...don't get any penalty. None of the Louisiana schools are passing in either sport (nor is MTSU). I wonder if they're cutting the Louisiana schools slack because of Katrina?

Either way...this sucks.

[Shof]

Here are the SBC scores and the schollies lost are in parentheses.

Football:

WKU 945 (0)

Ark Sta 934 (0)

Troy 930 (0)

UNT 917 (5)

FAU 915 (3)

ULM 912 (0)

ULL 903 (0)

MTSU 902 (0)

FIU 887 (3)

Basketball:

Denver 957 (0)

UALR 939 (0)

WKU 937 (0)

FAU 927 (0)

UNT 924 (1)

Troy 916 (0)

MTSU 906 (0)

Ark State 893 (0)

New Orleans 882 (0)

South Alabama 877 (1)

FIU 854 (1)

ULL 839 (0)

ULM 837 (0)

What hacks me off is...we're in the upper divisions...we get slammed. Several schools aren't passing on either...don't get any penalty. None of the Louisiana schools are passing in either sport (nor is MTSU). I wonder if they're cutting the Louisiana schools slack because of Katrina?

Either way...this sucks.

They might be cutting UNO some slack; but I highly doubt the Cajuns or Monroe are getting any slack. I do know that the Cajuns APR in BB has a lot more to do with previous years and the coach running off some slackers. They actually had a 1000 this year in BB. Not sure what's up with FB though.

BTW, if anyone is curious, we are getting new turf (Field Turf I believe) in Cajun Field. Construction is underway and a live video cam is up and running. ragincajuns.com or raginpagin.com have links. Right now its just ground prep/leveling. Supposed to be ready NLT July.

Shof

[KRAM1]

This all sucks! But, it brings up the point of recruiting quality STUDENT athletes, not just athletes. UNT has made some very good progress in the last few years in improving the academic side of its athletic programs. I have no clue why some schools (UNT) got hit so hard while others (think Louisiana schools) did not, but for whatever reason, the fact is...UNT lost 5 scholarships and that will hurt! But, the emphasis going forward must be on STUDENT athletes...

I think we could "regain" the five lost scholarships by looking to "transfer" some of our better student athletes on the football team to academic scholarships and "free up" their athletic scholarships. Anyone think that might be a temp solution for awhile? I believe there are several gifted (academic-wise) athletes on the football team....could work...what do you think?

One thing about an academic scholarship....you gotta keep the grades up to keep the scholarship...much unlike an athletic scholarship. All you have to do in that case is sack a QB once or twice and you are set, etc., etc.

I like the idea of a good solid walk-on program...time tyo give that some serious consuideration..Jerry Moore had a great idea to bring the "Nebraska thing" to UNT. The local talent base is DEEP here in NTX and some of these kids are just looking for a chance to prove they can play D-1 football...and many can. Much like Welker at TT who was said to be way too small for pro-ball...call him a walk-on with the pros...look what happened there to a kid with the head and heart to make it work.

O.K., we lost 5...the world is not over, the sky is not falling and UNT will put a better team on the field....I am still saying 6/7 wins this next season and more to come after that. This just means you have to do a better recruiting job...can't afford to recruit a "maybe" kid whao has potential academic or character issues!

I see this as the glass is half full. I predicit this will turn into a positive for UNT!

[SUMG]

They might be cutting UNO some slack; but I highly doubt the Cajuns or Monroe are getting any slack. I do know that the Cajuns APR in BB has a lot more to do with previous years and the coach running off some slackers. They actually had a 1000 this year in BB. Not sure what's up with FB though.

BTW, if anyone is curious, we are getting new turf (Field Turf I believe) in Cajun Field. Construction is underway and a live video cam is up and running. ragincajuns.com or raginpagin.com have links. Right now its just ground prep/leveling. Supposed to be ready NLT July.

Shof

Congrats on the new turf. Since those APRs listed are a 4-5 year average...if you guys got a 1000 in b-ball this year....your previous years' scores must have been awful.

That's why I have a problem with this nonsense.

[Spaceraider]

Here are the SBC scores and the schollies lost are in parentheses.

Football:

WKU 945 (0)

Ark Sta 934 (0)

Troy 930 (0)

UNT 917 (5)

FAU 915 (3)

ULM 912 (0)

ULL 903 (0)

MTSU 902 (0)

FIU 887 (3)

Basketball:

Denver 957 (0)

UALR 939 (0)

WKU 937 (0)

FAU 927 (0)

UNT 924 (1)

Troy 916 (0)

MTSU 906 (0)

Ark State 893 (0)

New Orleans 882 (0)

South Alabama 877 (1)

FIU 854 (1)

ULL 839 (0)

ULM 837 (0)

What hacks me off is...we're in the upper divisions...we get slammed. Several schools aren't passing on either...don't get any penalty. None of the Louisiana schools are passing in either sport (nor is MTSU). I wonder if they're cutting the Louisiana schools slack because of Katrina?

Either way...this sucks.

MT already faced up to penalties. You may not recall, but Coach Stockstill's first recruiting class in February 2006 was basically limited to 13 or 14 signees. MT is still battling depth issues as a result of that and the attrition of players signed by the previous staff. MT is going into the fall with just 10 seniors on the squad. The impact of the scholarship penalties from APR are almost always worse than if a school willfully violated NCAA rules - something is seriously out of line when a Sun Belt program gets blasted with penalties for players not taking care of business in the classroom versus say, an Alabama or a Texas A&M getting caught cheating and violating NCAA rules.

Another thing that aggravates me about the way the NCAA reports the APR, those scores posted above are multi-year scores (basically an average of each of the last four annual APR scores) - they do not show the improvement year to year or in the case of some - backsliding. The reason for MT not being penalized is the huge improvement made from the bad old days under the previous coaching regime. Per the DNJ, here are the scores for football from the first year of the APR to the present:

2003-04 812 - the lowest score of any 1A program

2004-05 893

2005-06 949

2006-07 958 - marks three straight years of improvement in FB

scores for MT sports across the board for the 2006-07 year were as follows:

Baseball 972

Football 958

Men's basketball 977

Men's golf 1000

Men's tennis 1000

Men's track 955

Soccer 944

Softball 944

Volleyball 1000

Women's basketball 981

Women's golf 1000

Women's tennis 967

Women's track 978

[KingDL1]

The more I read about this the more it stinks, we are getting screwed there is no two ways about it. It seems very arbitrary to have different standards for every school. The NCAA sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 7, 2008 by KingDL1

[GMoney]

Maybe we should have claimed that our athletic department is an alcoholic. That seems to get you some extra time.

Very underrated post!

[Guest 97and03]

When you recruit athletes with questionable academics, you often can't retain the student. Those count against you. Simple as that. We take the penalty and move forward. Hopefully, the DD effect will diminish greatly in the next year or so.

I can tell you that this year's signing class has a large number of very high acheiving students and this type of issue should not be prevalant with Dodge's recruits. You are going to always lose a few here and there, but retention of student athletes begins with recruitment of talented athletes that can also make it in the classroom. I think the way Dodge recruits high school quarterbacks is a reflection of that concept, as he is looking for smart players that are good versatile athletes.

Edited May 7, 2008 by 97and03

[SUMG]

(From the DMNew sports blog):

Of the 37 schools penalized for failing to meet minimum Academic Progress Rate requirements in football on Tuesday, the only schools to lose more scholarships than North Texas' five were:

Alabama-Birmingham (9)

San Jose State (9)

Washington State (8)

Idaho (8)

Southern (6.3)

Toledo (6)

San Diego State (6)

Weber State (5.86)

[GMoney]

From the DMNew sports blog):

Of the 37 schools penalized for failing to meet minimum Academic Progress Rate requirements in football on Tuesday, the only schools to lose more scholarships than North Texas' five were:

Alabama-Birmingham (9)

San Jose State (9)

Washington State (8)

Idaho (8)

Southern (6.3)

Toledo (6)

San Diego State (6)

Weber State (5.86)

You bring up the point that I don't really understand, "How are the number of scholarships you lose determined." Is there a sliding scale based upon your overall score? This would seem to be arbitrary if each school is looked at differently with all the various elements that go into determining the score. How do you decide upon 5 when others with lower overall scores got less of a penalty?

[PHSCoach]

Because they are closer to the schools avg grad rate.

I must say I love the fact that this board wants to get this on DD. Yes some of it should be on him but he always had the grad rate over the school's rate because he took the time to help his kids not just reject them...........

[greenjoe]

Well, with regard to the DD mention, how many of Todd's players went into the formula that cost us 5 scholarships ? How many of Todd's recruits are still with the team ?

I'm not arguing, I just don't know.

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[eulessismore]

Pardon me if this has already been answered in this or the other thread, but is this penalty enforced entirely within the following year (presumably most affecting 2009 signing date), or can it be spread out over a period of multiple years?