John Adams....

[FirefightnRick]

Did anyone get to watch the seven part series on HBO about "John Adams"? It's on HBO On Demand with Charter cable if you didn't and want to catch up on it. I have always been interested in the revolutionary times of our country but am not that educated on it as I would like to be. If you saw this series, what did you think? Overall I found it to be a very thought-provoking version of our history. I know some of you must be well read on the subject, much better than I and would love to hear what you thought about it. It's being talked about quite a bit so I'm just curious what the MGNaition thinks?

Some of the things I found most interesting:

How well detailed they portrayed the era and time back then? Not exactly sure how accurate it was, but it looked as I had always imagined it?

Tarred and Feathered just doesn't have the same meaning today that it originally was. If that was an accurate account I'd say it was just this side of a crucifixion.

Very interesting to see how the arguements to form a national army for defense went between the colonies. I didn't fully understand how much so separate the 13 independant colonies were and how each thought of themselves to be so independant of one another at the time. Listening to their arguements gave me a better understanding of this I suppose. I loved the point driven home when the separatists were trying to convince New York to join. The represenative of New York was of the attitude: "We(New York) currently have 150 British Naval war ships anchored in my own backyard, in New York Harbor and you want me to to basically tell them to kiss my ass?", "Don't you dumbasses realize that we'll be the first to get leveled to the ground....etc etc etc?".

The fact that they committed high treason and how hard that hit home when they finally, after months waiting for it, read the response from King George and what it must have meant to them to realize they were all going to be hung if the war didn't go their way. Gives you the idea of just how much incredible resolve and guts those men had.

The importance of the peace talks and political manuevering that went on between Adams, Franklin and France. Then of course Adams' stance on maintaining peace with France and England later on as president.

The strange love/hate relationship between Adams and Jefferson and their political differences.

Did the medical field of that time really understand cancer/tumor's enough to know that it(cancer) had to be removed, and then understood how to perform a mastechomy?

Thoughts, oppinions anyone?

Rick

[UNTflyer]

Yes, I thought it was a great miniseries. Paul Giamatti is an excellent actor.

The courage of a group of men to tell off the most powerful nation on earth and stand up for their rights... it is a lesson we should all observe.

[CMJ]

I didn't see the series, but the book upon which it drew most of its info was FANTASTIC. And from what I understand HBO stayed very true to McCullough's version of the day. I can't wait till I can get them on DVD to watch.

Edited April 28, 2008 by CMJ

[Green P1]

Loved it. If you have Verizon cable you can get it On Demand.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Green P1

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

---I saw a lot of it... It was very good and presented a lot more mature look at the revolution than what is presented in most public school classes. These were imperfect men that risked everything to succeed in creating a new country which was totally different that anything that had existed until then (no royal or dominating family). The economy of each state was very different as was their founding background, they were far from unified.

---Had they failed, they would have all been hung for treason against England. As Ben Franklin said. "We must hang together or we will hang separately". All had everything to lose... most people do not realize that Ben Franklin was the wealthiest man in America at the time because of his publishing and inventions. He was one of few Americans that was well known in Europe and then because of his scientific work. Because of this he had the best chance of success in France and plus he understood how to get things accomplished there. We were lucky to have so many with so much ability to get things done.

--I know Rick (who started this thread) hates France, but without their support, especially the blockade of Yorktown which prevented resuppling or evacuation of British troops, it may have been impossible. France (Napolean actually) sold us most of the land west of Mississippi and even the War of 1812 occured because of France. Napolean (France) was at war with Britain and we became involved... this really is not mentioned much in our history classes. Also who provided the cannons to Andrew Jackson at New Orleans in 1814? --- Jean Lafitte, a French-Texas pirate. Most of the British killed were the result of those cannons. There is a lot to dislike about France but we have owed a lot to them. They are very independent and don't like others telling them what to do.. which includes the USA ( been there) .

SE-66

whose grandfather's and gr-grandfather's middle name was Lafayette because the family (English name and background) served under the Marquis de Lafayette in the revolution around Frederickburg, Va.

Edited April 28, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[UNTflyer]

most people do not realize that Ben Franklin was the wealthiest man in America at the time because of his publishing and inventions.

Actually, I thought it was Washington. Which reminds me of the article I read back during the 2004 election. In 2004 dollars, Washington was the wealthiest of all the Presidents.

And I agree, we owe a lot to France... which is why they were so pissed when George W. wouldn't support them in their war against Britain.

[Cerebus]

I have not seen the miniseries but I plan to.

I've read the book, and I can tell you that I think it falls into a common trap of the biography: Falling in love with the subject.

If you read McCullough's John Adam (great author btw) then Adams is a genius, Hamilton is the antichrist, and everyone else is dumb. On the other hand, if you read Chernow's Alexander Hamilton, Hamilton is a genius, Adams is a foolish old woman, and everyone else is dumb.

You always have to take biographies and works based on biographies with a grain of salt.

I don't know how the mini series treats the Alien and Sedition acts, but it can't be harsh enough.

[CMJ]

I did think the book made out Hamilton to be somewhat of an egotist, but most books I've read on the time period do. I actually thought McCullough showed quite a few warts on Adams.

I also don't think he made out everyone to be dumb. They all had their moments. Franklin was at times brilliant, and at times a party animal(more power to the man in his 70's chasing women like that ). Washington only leader because "he was the tallest man in the room", and yet he came off as quite shrewd IMHO. Jefferson the brilliant thinker, who was also a bit of recluse and doublespeaker in private vs public.

If McCullough made Adams to be too much of a protaganist, perhaps it is because he is one of the Founders most underappreciated by history. I mean Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and others recieve all sorts of ink in textbooks. Adams not nearly as much.

Edited April 28, 2008 by CMJ

[Cerebus]

I think if you read John Adams you get a very rosy and air brushed photo of Adams, compared to many other sources.

Not to say Adams wasn't a great man and a vital founding father, it's just easy to turn a blind eye, but those things are as much history as any of the bright spots.

[UNTflyer]

I don't know how the mini series treats the Alien and Sedition acts, but it can't be harsh enough.

Glazed right over it.

[Mad Hatter]

Not to turn this into a Civil War era conversation, but one of Rick's topics leads right to it......and that's how all the states kind of thought of themselves as a seperate entity.

They all decided to join the United States, but much of that was to give them some semblance of power politically and militarily against England. The states still ran their own show for the most part.

Fast forward to 1861 and a "national" government is starting to encroach more and more into what the states felt was their business. "Who's this government to tell us we how we can and can't operate OUR OWN STATE! What do you mean we shouldn't have slaves any more?" that kind of attitude.

So when you hear many southerners refer to States Rights as the main cause of seceding from the Union and fighting the Civial War, that's where the mentatlity comes from. The southern states felt like they were losing the power they had, and that the U.S. was overstepping the founders intent.

Back to the original topic.......

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Actually, I thought it was Washington. Which reminds me of the article I read back during the 2004 election. In 2004 dollars, Washington was the wealthiest of all the Presidents.

And I agree, we owe a lot to France... which is why they were so pissed when George W. wouldn't support them in their war against Britain.

----Who was richest.???---Searched the web some and it seems both claims are out there... obviously Franklin and Washington were both extremely wealthy, Washington married most of his while Franklin earned his. The History channel made the Franklin claim, that is where I heard it but th seems to be claimed as true.

---Washington's size may have been a factor in being chosen as General , also his wealth and personallity... but he unlike most of the men at Philadelphia, he had some military experience and had been in combat during the French and Indian War. Again a couple of Frenchmen helped Washington in organizing our military, Lafayette and Rochembeau.

--Franklin had a lot of talent... including chasing women... and charming the Royal court into doing what he wanted.

[FirefightnRick]

Oh I appreciate France's founding fathers. Not so much of their leadership recently though. And I think we have more than repayed them for their assitance since that time, to which seems to count for very little in these modern days.

About the who was the richest between Washington and Franklin discussion? Not sure this means anything, but I heard a college professor at North Texas one time state that Washington was the largest owner of land at the time and that he outright owned the majority of the state of Pennsylvania?

Also, I remember the documentary that PBS ran about the story and filming of "The Patriot" with Mel Gibson. Which has one of the greatest scenes ever of any revolutionary movie, that of the recapturing of his son at the beginning of the movie. But in the documentary they interviewed the Historians that worked on the movie who explained that two of the characters, Gibson and the Brittish commander he was after, both were combined characters of several all rolled into two guys. Also during this documentary they stated that several of the men who signed the declaration ended up with nothing after the war and ended up in pauper graves. Anyone have any knowledge of that?

Also, did Adams finish his memoirs and are they available to read?

Rick

[CMJ]

Gosh Rick...it's been a few years since I read the book, but I think he did finish his memoirs. I'll try and dig it up tommorrow for you.

[UNTflyer]

Also during this documentary they stated that several of the men who signed the declaration ended up with nothing after the war and ended up in pauper graves. Anyone have any knowledge of that?

There was a wonderful essay on the fates of the founders, written by Rush Limbaugh II, father of the talk show host. Rush the Elder was the oldest practicing lawyer in the country at the time of his death. Here is a portion of that essay:

"Of those 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence, nine died of wounds or hardships during the war. Five were captured and imprisoned, in each case with brutal treatment. Several lost wives, sons or entire families. One lost his 13 children. Two wives were brutally treated. All were at one time or another the victims of manhunts and driven from their homes. Twelve signers had their homes completely burned. Seventeen lost everything they owned. Yet not one defected or went back on his pledged word. Their honor, and the nation they sacrificed so much to create, is still intact."

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/read.FoundersFates.html

[FirefightnRick]

There was a wonderful essay on the fates of the founders, written by Rush Limbaugh II, father of the talk show host. Rush the Elder was the oldest practicing lawyer in the country at the time of his death. Here is a portion of that essay:

"Of those 56 who signed the Declaration of Independence, nine died of wounds or hardships during the war. Five were captured and imprisoned, in each case with brutal treatment. Several lost wives, sons or entire families. One lost his 13 children. Two wives were brutally treated. All were at one time or another the victims of manhunts and driven from their homes. Twelve signers had their homes completely burned. Seventeen lost everything they owned. Yet not one defected or went back on his pledged word. Their honor, and the nation they sacrificed so much to create, is still intact."

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/read.FoundersFates.html

That's amazing resolve. Very interesting.

Thank you.

Rick