Gas Prices

Censored by Laurie · May 24, 2008

Some are worst than socialist... downright Marxist is you ask me.

Ok...seriously...we live in the most right leaning, nearly unabated capitilist country in the world...calling any politician a Marxist here is such hyperbole it loses its effect and just becomes idiotic. There are plenty who would prefer more socialist-ish programs as they see problem areas within our society and don't believe that the holy market will suddenly provide health care for a 5 year old...but even the most left leaning have no interest in a socialist state...stop being stupid.

Pure Socialism and Pure Capitalism produce the exact same result...striking a successful balance is what makes an economy successful. Personally...I love what Sweden has done...essentially spliting their economy down the middle...50% income tax with universal health care and other government subsidies...I feel that if managed well this type of economy would create a larger amount of disposible income. I also understand that this system wouldn't be successful here...in large part to people who equate Marx with Satan...but also because of the significantly grander(?) scale of our economy...but that certainly doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to more socialist-ish reforms added to our economy...starting with some sort of regulatory practices on the oil companies.

SilverEagle · May 24, 2008

I remember reading several years ago (around 2000 when oil was about $27 per barrel) that the reason that the oil shale deposits in the Green River area of Colorado & Utah were not developed, was that it would cost about $60 per barrel to process. Were they blowing smoke up our collective rear-ends back then? I've read recently that new technology has been developed to extact that resource much more effeciently than what was known about in 2000. Why are we not talking about this resource? Most estimates put the deposits of oil there in the trillions of barrels.

A few more thoughts.

1. India and China are causing the prices to go up? Even if their economies are "emerging", how the hell can they afford the ever increasing price of oil? Surely their economies are not "emerging/growing" that fast!

2. We will always be in some sort of crisis about fuel as long as we are in love with the automobile and have two or three of them. When I was growing up in Longview Texas during the 50's, it had a bus system. I could travel just about anywhere within the city limits using their bus system. Of course, it was a much safer and kinder time as well, since a child of 7 or 8 could ride a bus and not be bothered by anyone. However, in the 50's, Longview's population was somewhere around 30K.

3. We only have one long distant passenger rail service. Carrying people by rail is much more fuel effecient than carrying people by car and/or airplane. Before anyone takes a shot at AMTRAK for being subsidized........so is the airline industry. And they are not as restricted as AMTRAK.

UNTflyer · May 24, 2008

To respond to your points:

Yes, it is costing a lot more to get oil and gas out of the ground because of several factors- more expensive equipment, environmental impact studies, pipeline construction... all of which are more expensive now than it was even 10 years ago.

1. China's GDP growth is still hovering around an astonishing 10%, so yeah I think they certainly have a huge impact on oil consumption. This partly because of the Olympics- we'll see if they maintain that after this summer.

2. I am all for more use of public transportation. I take the DCTA Commuter Express to Dallas. I used to fill up every 3 days, now I only fill my tank every 3 weeks. We should all take public transportation as much as possible.

3. The airline infrastructure is subsidized, but I don't think individual companies are. I could be wrong there.

CBL, as for the wonders of Swedish Socialism... I'd rather pay 25% taxes and decide what's best for myself than pay 50% taxes and have the government decide for me. BTW, Sweden continued their horrific eugenics program into the 1970s by sterilizing "undesirables". Yay, socialism!

Just keep in mind, folks... an estimated 60% of the price of oil is driven by futures speculators. While many are making money, a whole lot will LOSE combined billions when the oil market corrects itself. The free market will correct itself, just like it did in the bloated housing market.

Edited May 24, 2008 by UNTflyer

SilverEagle · May 24, 2008

Hey, we could all drive Mopeds like they do in Viet Nam and other SE Asian countries. No, that won't work. They cause too much polution.

You don't have to drive two-cycle Mopeds. In fact, I don't think anyone makes two-cycle bikes anymore.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products...479/0/home.aspx

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products...415/0/home.aspx

http://powersports.honda.com/scooters/mode...ModelId=NSS2507

http://powersports.honda.com/scooters/mode...;ModelId=CN2507

Or, you can go with the company that invented the moped......Piaggio

http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/857/

GoMeanGreen1999 · May 24, 2008

Were they blowing smoke up our collective rear-ends back then?

Who really knows - that is the problem - they tell us one thing, then something else happens that contridics what they told us before, and the reasons go on and on in seemingly a circle.

Censored by Laurie · May 24, 2008

CBL, as for the wonders of Swedish Socialism... I'd rather pay 25% taxes and decide what's best for myself than pay 50% taxes and have the government decide for me. BTW, Sweden continued their horrific eugenics program into the 1970s by sterilizing "undesirables". Yay, socialism!

Ideally I wouldn't want to pay taxes...ideally I don't even really see the need for money...ideally the world would work as one giant co-op where everyone did their job for the greater good and needs and wants were provided for by the community...you work for others because they work for you....ahhh...ideal. I would rather pay 50% taxes to ensure that not just mine...but society's needs (such as health care) are provided for, while at the same time leaving me more than enough for the rest of my needs and especially my wants.

Also...we were having an economic discussion...what exactly does eugenics have to do with that? You would be very hard pressed to find governments throughout history who haven't committed awful atrocities...ourselves included. And I feel I know your retort...that Socialism and eventually Communism require uniformity and eugenics is the scientific path...bullshit...its simply a mask for bigotry, fear and racism.

I never suggested that we attempt to adopt Sweden's system...it would be disastorous here.

Coffee and TV · May 24, 2008

Some are worst than socialist... downright Marxist is you ask me.

I don't think you understand what a Marxist is. I suggest some graduate classes in poli sci.

filmerj · May 24, 2008

First off let me start by saying, I don't know much about this stuff and claim no political affiliation, but does anyone think that opec is pissed and with holding oil because Bush signed that bio fuels act? Which by the way back fired. (Rising Food Prices, which I know can be caused by the gas prices as well) Basically like a lady friend who uses sex as a weapon and withholds it when she's pissed at you.

I also think if oil execs say it cost more to produce and refine oil, yet can still make 12 mil, there is obviously something wrong there and something needs to be done.

If the North Texas region had a reliable form of mass transit, subway system, I would be on board.

UNTflyer · May 24, 2008

...ideally the world would work as one giant co-op where everyone did their job for the greater good and needs and wants were provided for by the community...you work for others because they work for you....ahhh...ideal.

That might be your ideal... but I like working for myself and contributing to society by achieving for myself.

Only I can know what my needs are, and "society" should not dictate them. The greater good is achieved most efficiently by everyone doing for themselves.

Bottom line- capitalism is superior to socialism, but it only rewards those who put in the effort to achieve something. Maybe that's why so many like socialism? It rewards laziness.

UNTflyer · May 24, 2008

If the North Texas region had a reliable form of mass transit, subway system, I would be on board.

DART is a pretty decent system if you don't mind buses. The light rail is really ideal for those who commute long distances. Will we ever have a mass transit system where you can walk to a train and get to within walking distance of your destination? Nope- we're too widespread in DFW. But you can take a train and then hop on a bus for get almost anywhere in Dallas county.

I will say I love taking the DCTA commuter bus. It's more like one of those coach buses than a public transit bus. I'm saving literally hundreds a month in gas.

UNTflyer · May 24, 2008

I would rather pay 50% taxes to ensure that not just mine...but society's needs (such as health care) are provided for, while at the same time leaving me more than enough for the rest of my needs and especially my wants.

Here you go, man:

http://www.immi.se/migration/control.htm

HoustonEagle · May 25, 2008

just keep in mind, folks... an estimated 60% of the price of oil is driven by futures speculators. While many are making money, a whole lot will LOSE combined billions when the oil market corrects itself. The free market will correct itself, just like it did in the bloated housing market.

I hope you are not saying that you believe 60% of the price of oil is caused by speculators. Are you saying that you believe 60% of market volume is speculative trading? That could possibly be true but it does not matter.

Just some information to address this whole speculative conspiracy theory that so many of you have cooked up in your heads. If I buy the front month contract of nymex crude I have until the contract expiration at the end of that month that I can hold it. At which point my purchase rolls into the cash markets and I must start taking delivery of that crude at the hub in Cushing, Oklahoma. Well one contract is equal to 1000 barrels of oil. Which of you reading this has room for the 1000 barrels of oil? Maybe in the pool out back? I don't have room for delivery of one contract and I most certainly would have been long more than one contract. So then what are my options? I must sell my crude before contract expiration. Therefore my speculative bet toward the price of front month crude (the price you see in the news each day) has just canceled itself out. I might also take my long position of front month and roll it into the following month. (e.g selling out of my 1 contract of June and buying 1 contract of July). If speculative traders were the main culprit then toward the end of each month there would be massive price disparity between those two contract months highlighting the amount of speculative dollars were in the market and also creating an excellent short move by other speculators. That does not happen.

This is just scratching the surface of why speculators are not to blame I could go on about margin requirements, hedging strategies and speculative trading styles as well but it all leads to the same conclusion.

The truth of the matter is that speculative traders increase volumes and volatility but they do not cause long-term trend lines to form. Fundamentals do.

eulesseagle · May 25, 2008

Our gas prices are the direct cause of the US Congress' (Dems and GOP) failure to act on the recommendations of all the oil companies for the last 25 years to BUILD additional refineries.........again, this is what BIG oil was asking for last week in congress when sen waters, d-ca., threatened BIG oil with "nationalization" of their industry.......

Congress and various sectors of the national govt. (USD/Interior) is forcing another policy of placing alaskan polar bears on the endangered species act making it more difficult for anyone to drill in "PROTECTED" areas. This same type of policy was enacted in oregon about 15 years ago to stop the cutting of trees from various lumber companies by putting the "SPOTTED OWL" on the endangered species list in oregon, washington and northern california.

...........build refineries..........pump oil............lower prices at the pump........if not now, when? when gas prices are 10 bucks a gallon or if congress nationalizes the oil industry which we, as consumers, would have to pay for in ANOTHER" hidden tax?

As far as the US becoming a socialist type government.....yep, it is partially here thanks to FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society.....once you place socialized programs in the government they never go away....they only get bigger and eventually we, as americans (or AMERIKA for some of the really right leaning folks) are "forced" to pay for them.

The "ONLY" solution (which will NEVER happen) is to rid ourselves of:

1. The IRS

2. Dept's of Education, Welfare, Indian Bureau, Labor ..... and other "BLOATED" federal agencies and hand those responsiblities to the individual state governments.

The bigger the government the more tax..... the more tax the more socialized we become. it is kinda like the story of the frog who sat in a increasingly warm bath of water until he was cooked and didn't know it. Many people do not recognize "INCRAMENTALISM" until it is toooooo late.

Some of the older posters 45+ will understand what i mean (with the exception of one or two).

SilverEagle · May 25, 2008

It's ICE baby.....ICE.

Part 1

http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/651928.html

Part 2

http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/659081.html

Everyone is fond of quoting the famous line in Shakespeare's Henry VI play....The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers . How about unregulated speculators. :rolleyes:

LongJim · May 26, 2008

It's ICE baby.....ICE.
Part 1
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/651928.html
Part 2
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/659081.html
Everyone is fond of quoting the famous line in Shakespeare's Henry VI play....The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers . How about unregulated speculators.

Those are both great columns. Sheds a lot of light on the 'oil shortage'.

eulesseagle · May 26, 2008

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE...mp;pageId=65111

last week's video on oil companies at congress.

HoustonEagle · May 26, 2008

It's ICE baby.....ICE.
Part 1
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/651928.html
Part 2
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/659081.html
Everyone is fond of quoting the famous line in Shakespeare's Henry VI play....The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers . How about unregulated speculators.

Where to find real data for your arguments

The US by no means is facing a shortage but we are currently on the lower end of the 5 yr moving avg. for crude supplies. Yet again I must mention that the rise in crude prices has less to do with us and more to do with with the rest of the world. For instance The U.S. has just over 300 million citizens while China has 1.3 billion. Our economy is growing less than 1% currently. The Chinese are growing at 10%. Some fairly easy conclusions can be reached as to why crude (and many other commodities) prices are rising. China is only part of this growth story. India, Russia, the gulf states and so on are experiencing rapid growth and bringing on new supplies is proving problematic at best.

As for that article the author is way off base on many of his points. Taking a few loose unrelated facts and drawing a conclusion that could not be further from reality.

Coffee and TV · May 26, 2008

Our gas prices are the direct cause of the US Congress' (Dems and GOP) failure to act on the recommendations of all the oil companies for the last 25 years to BUILD additional refineries.........again, this is what BIG oil was asking for last week in congress when sen waters, d-ca., threatened BIG oil with "nationalization" of their industry.......
Congress and various sectors of the national govt. (USD/Interior) is forcing another policy of placing alaskan polar bears on the endangered species act making it more difficult for anyone to drill in "PROTECTED" areas. This same type of policy was enacted in oregon about 15 years ago to stop the cutting of trees from various lumber companies by putting the "SPOTTED OWL" on the endangered species list in oregon, washington and northern california.
...........build refineries..........pump oil............lower prices at the pump........if not now, when? when gas prices are 10 bucks a gallon or if congress nationalizes the oil industry which we, as consumers, would have to pay for in ANOTHER" hidden tax?
As far as the US becoming a socialist type government.....yep, it is partially here thanks to FDR's New Deal and LBJ's Great Society.....once you place socialized programs in the government they never go away....they only get bigger and eventually we, as americans (or AMERIKA for some of the really right leaning folks) are "forced" to pay for them.
The "ONLY" solution (which will NEVER happen) is to rid ourselves of:
1. The IRS
2. Dept's of Education, Welfare, Indian Bureau, Labor ..... and other "BLOATED" federal agencies and hand those responsiblities to the individual state governments.
The bigger the government the more tax..... the more tax the more socialized we become. it is kinda like the story of the frog who sat in a increasingly warm bath of water until he was cooked and didn't know it. Many people do not recognize "INCRAMENTALISM" until it is toooooo late.
Some of the older posters 45+ will understand what i mean (with the exception of one or two).

eulesseagle · May 26, 2008

coffee&tv.....

evidently you missed my point .... this has nothing to do with race and i abhor the fact that you stooped so low as to post a racially divisive picture when i was pointing to the fact that the USA has a lack of refineries.

SilverEagle · May 26, 2008

Where to find real data for your arguments
The US by no means is facing a shortage but we are currently on the lower end of the 5 yr moving avg. for crude supplies. Yet again I must mention that the rise in crude prices has less to do with us and more to do with with the rest of the world. For instance The U.S. has just over 300 million citizens while China has 1.3 billion. Our economy is growing less than 1% currently. The Chinese are growing at 10%. Some fairly easy conclusions can be reached as to why crude (and many other commodities) prices are rising. China is only part of this growth story. India, Russia, the gulf states and so on are experiencing rapid growth and bringing on new supplies is proving problematic at best.
As for that article the author is way off base on many of his points. Taking a few loose unrelated facts and drawing a conclusion that could not be further from reality.

Ed Wallace is a recipient of the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the Anderson School of Business at UCLA, and is a member of the American Historical Society. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Four’s Good Day, contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online and hosts the talk show, Wheels, 8:00 to 1:00 Saturdays on 570 KLIF. E-mail: wheels570@sbcglobal.net

HoustonEagle · May 26, 2008

Ed Wallace is a recipient of the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the Anderson School of Business at UCLA, and is a member of the American Historical Society. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Four’s Good Day, contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online and hosts the talk show, Wheels, 8:00 to 1:00 Saturdays on 570 KLIF. E-mail: wheels570@sbcglobal.net

Exactly my point. The man does a new car review every friday and host a talk radio show called Wheels. Clearly an expert! On the other hand I work in the middle of this argument and have the likes of Hank Paulson on my side. Check out his resume he seems to be slightly more qualified.

Outside of that I have nothing more to add. I originally just stepped in to provide some input from someone that is closer to the situation. I hope everone is having a good Memorial weekend. God Bless America!

Censored by Laurie · May 26, 2008

coffee&tv.....
evidently you missed my point .... this has nothing to do with race and i abhor the fact that you stooped so low as to post a racially divisive picture when i was pointing to the fact that the USA has a lack of refineries.

I however would say I love you...except any sort of male on male affection is just the first incrimental step toward communism.

eulesseagle · May 26, 2008

cbl-

you can tell me you love me by sending me one of your che' t-shirts. since you sincerly want a 50% tax on americans to emulate a european model i certainly hope you get it....... when i retire......btw.....thanks for your concern.

SilverEagle · May 27, 2008

Exactly my point. The man does a new car review every friday and host a talk radio show called Wheels. Clearly an expert! On the other hand I work in the middle of this argument and have the likes of Hank Paulson on my side. Check out his resume he seems to be slightly more qualified.
Outside of that I have nothing more to add. I originally just stepped in to provide some input from someone that is closer to the situation. I hope everone is having a good Memorial weekend. God Bless America!

You seemed to ignore the first part of his resume. You also seem to ignore that he has resources as well, and that he wouldn't be honored as a writer if he has a tendency to make up information. You'll pardon me if I don't take as total gospel most information coming from the Oil industry. There's a good reason why Mexico doesn't trust Oil companies......especially American oil companys.