Gas Prices

[Cerebus]

If you'll read that MJ article you'll see that there are solutions to a big part of that problem.

One reactor in the offing, the Next Generation Nuclear Plant, can be cooled with helium instead of water and might be capable of producing industrial hydrogen to power emission-free cars and other power plants. Another, the Advanced Fast Reactor, can burn up the radioactive elements that remain behind in a light-water reactor

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Yikes! I will take $3.50 any day over this article:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Inves...arsABarrel.aspx

[KRAM1]

Solar Power...Nuke Power...Thermal Power...all need to be researched and developed at much greater rates than are currently happening here in the states...Man, if France...France for frigging sakes...can use nuke poers safely then so can we.....these power sources will relieve a great deal of pressure on our dependance of foreign oil and will not put pressure on food stuffs, the environment, etc. that grain based fuels will...and, hey, how about all that "oil sand" I keeo hearing about in Canada?????? With gas at $3.50/gal. getting that stuff out and refined and transported from Canada is lokoking better and better....

Come on folks...the technology and the money is there to solve this problem...get the lobbyists and the special interest groups out of the way...including the eco looney-birds...and let's get on with solving the problem...it can be done and pretty darn quickly too!

[FirefightnRick]

Natural De-selection at it's finest.

This isn't a joke nor is it photoshoped but a perfect window to view how the public thinks of our U.S. Highways...as a "PLAYGROUND". This wreck occured on April 17th outside of Tulsa OK. The semi truck driver thought he had been hit from behind by another truck or large vehicle. He's was hit from behind by a motorcycle riding thrill seeker who was traveling at an estimated 125 mph plus by investigators. The semi driver was traveling at a rate of speed which took him nearly a quarter of a mile to slow down and pull over, if that gives you any indication as to how hard the impact must have been? I have all of the photos but will spare you the majority of the gory ones. But imagine if the truck driver was traveling with a family of 4 in a Huyndai whatever? and got hit this hard from behind? And this was just a morcycle. I see countless others in 3,000lb + cars and larger trucks driving just as careless as this thrill seeker every day during my commute between Weatherford and Fort Worth. A photo is one thing, but the smells and realies of actually being there and getting it all over you are quite another and I pray I nor you or anyone I know has to personally experience anything reomotely like this. Needless to say, this is why I currently drive the heaviest and safest rated 1/2 ton truck on the market and will continue to do so regardless of how high fuel gets.

Motorcycle driver's head impales into the back of the trailer and his body is dragged more than a quarter of a

mile before coming to a stop. He doesn't have any shoes on becuase they continued going on ahead of him after the impact

removed them.

What is left of the motorcycle.

Rick

Edited April 24, 2008 by FirefightnRick

[LongJim]

DRT.

[EagleChick03]

I just paid 65 dollars to fill up my jeep.

[LongJim]

I just paid 65 dollars to fill up my jeep.

I feel your pain.

Two weeks ago, I filled up my 1996 F250 with diesel fuel. Both tanks topped out at $100.28.

[UNTFan23]

I paid $35 to fill up my Toyota Matrix.

Think of it this way ... what are you giving up when you put gas in your car? A movie? Dinner with friends? That's what a lot of people are facing these days and that's what's going to cause our economy to really tank.

[meangreendork]

I paid $35 to fill up my Toyota Matrix.

Think of it this way ... what are you giving up when you put gas in your car? A movie? Dinner with friends? That's what a lot of people are facing these days and that's what's going to cause our economy to really tank.

This intrigues me, tell me more.

[UNTFan23]

This intrigues me, tell me more.

If you're putting all the money in your gas tank that you would have spent on a CD, dinner, movie, etc, it's that much less that goes to our economy. Think about it, someone like Wal-Mart [on the store level] has a break even point. If people aren't spending enough to hit that point, they're losing money. In order to affect the that break even point, they start looking to cut costs. One place that's always easy to cut costs is in payroll. Companies lay-off parts of their work-force (or at best, stop hiring). See where this is heading?

I think this will be an interesting summer. If gas hits the price point it's believed to ($4.00/gallon), we're going to see just how resilient the American consumer really is. We'll see how the tourism and entertainment industries handle consumers' shrinking disposable income.

[DeepGreen]

Read some of UNTFlyer's earlier threads; he really has a handle on what is going on. Our company has been selling to Refinery/Petrochemical businesses for 75 years. I don't have any answers, but I can add to what has already been said.

Currently, in our immediate area of Beaumont/Port Arthur (anyone remember Spindletop?) there is approximately $7 billion in new refinery construction going on at the Shell/Motiva facility. This was formerly the Texaco Refinery in Port Arthur, now a joint ownership between Shell Oil and the Saudis. Plans have been announced to increase capacity at Total (formerly Fina), and at Valero Refinery (formerly Gulf Oil). Projected spend in new construction: $10+ billion.

Word on the street is that the Shell/Motiva Refinery in Convent, La will be building new refinery capacity to the tune of another $7 billion. And I doubt Exxon/Mobil will sit and watch their competition expand.

A couple of comments-

• China, India, and Russia are responsible for much of the increased oil demand worldwide. Buy any concrete lately? Did you know that China uses what, 20 or is it 40% of the worlds cement supply? These three countries need oil to fuel their economy. You know, that Chinese economy that makes just about everything we use nowadays.

• I believe the hedge funds are sponsible for much of the increase too; factor in greed; factor in the politicians, lobbyists, and special interest groups

• Labor to build and run these refineries has increased dramatically over the years. I won't say why, but use your imagination. Lamar has a two year program that trains operators, kids right out of high school (the guys that sit, watch monitors and open/close controls valves); last I heard, they start at $60,000 to $70,000 a year. I know engineers that retired with 35 years at a plant and walk away with $3-$6 million or more.

• Contrary to what JohnDenver says, these refineries do shut down for maintenance. Otherwise, you end up like BP Oil in Texas City. But, many of these refinery units have been running on bandaids for several years, with maintenance being pushed back for whatever reason.

• Refineries do shut down to switch to summer blends. This causes a disruption in the gas supply.

These are my opinions-

• I'm all for a clean environment, but not to the point where we are making the U.S. a slave to these little "piss ass" countries run by terorists and dictators. Don't you just love Hugo Chaves. This country runs on oil. Not fruit juice and corn squeezings. Sure, find alternative fuels; but don't try and replace oil with this stuff. This country needs to drill for it's own oil in the Gulf, in Alaska, or wherever we have large oil deposits. And believe me, this country has large, untapped oil deposits. Did you know China wants to start drill for oil off of the Cuban coast? How does that make you feel? It should make all of us feel like fools!

• If you don't think we should drill for our own oil and become less dependent on foreign "blood" oil, then quit bitching about the price of gas!

Edited April 25, 2008 by DeepGreen

[greenminer]

Read some of UNTFlyer's earlier threads; he really has a handle on what is going on. Our company has been selling to Refinery/Petrochemical businesses for 75 years. I don't have any answers, but I can add to what has already been said.

Currently, in our immediate area of Beaumont/Port Arthur (anyone remember Spindletop?) there is approximately $7 billion in new refinery construction going on at the Shell/Motiva facility. This was formerly the Texaco Refinery in Port Arthur, now a joint ownership between Shell Oil and the Saudis. Plans have been announced to increase capacity at Total (formerly Fina), and at Valero Refinery (formerly Gulf Oil). Projected spend in new construction: $10+ billion.

Word on the street is that the Shell/Motiva Refinery in Convent, La will be building new refinery capacity to the tune of another $7 billion. And I doubt Exxon/Mobil will sit and watch their competition expand.

A couple of comments-

• China, India, and Russia are responsible for much of the increased oil demind worldwide. Buy any concrete lately? Did you know that China uses what, 20 or is it 40% of the worlds cement supply? These three countries need oil to fuel their economy. You know, that Chinese economy that makes just about everything we use nowadays.

• I believe the hedge funds are sponsible for much of the increase too; factor in greed; factor in the politicians, lobbyists, and special interest groups

• Labor to build and run these refineries has increased dramatically over the years. I won't say why, but use your imagination. Lamar has a two year program that trains operators, kids right out of high school (the guys that sit, watch monitors and open/close controls valves); last I heard, they start at $60,000 to $70,000 a year. I know engineers that retired with 35 years at a plant and walk away with $3-$6 million or more.

• Contrary to what JohnDenver says, these refineries do shut down for maintenance. Otherwise, you end up like BP Oil in Texas City. But, many of these refinery units have been running on bandaids for several years, with maintenance being pushed back for whatever reason.

• Refineries do shut down to switch to summer blends. This causes a disruption in the gas supply.

These are my opinions-

• I'm all for a clean environment, but not to the point where we are making the U.S. a slave to these little "piss ass" countries run by terorists and dictators. Don't you just love Hugo Chaves. This country runs on oil. Not fruit juice and corn squeezings. Sure, find alternative fuels; but don't try and replace oil with this stuff. This country needs to drill for it's own oil in the Gulf, in Alaska, or wherever we have large oil deposits. And believe me, this country has large, untapped oil deposits. Did you know China wants to start drill for oil off of the Cuban coast? How does that make you feel? It should make all of us feel like fools!

• If you don't think we should drill for our own oil and become less dependent on foreign "blood" oil, then quit bitching about the price of gas!

Good stuff.

I think I saw on Discovery Channel or somewhere - not The Onion - that there's an unreal amount of oil under the Gulf of Mexico, they're just trying to figure out how to tap it. Might make us independent of the east? Have you heard anything like that?

[DeepGreen]

Good stuff.

I think I saw on Discovery Channel or somewhere - not The Onion - that there's an unreal amount of oil under the Gulf of Mexico, they're just trying to figure out how to tap it. Might make us independent of the east? Have you heard anything like that?

Yes I have heard about it. Gulf of Mexico Oil

I'm not sure if it's the same one, but Mexico also discovered a huge oil deposit near the Yucatan Penninsula.

[UNTflyer]

I think I saw on Discovery Channel or somewhere - not The Onion - that there's an unreal amount of oil under the Gulf of Mexico, they're just trying to figure out how to tap it. Might make us independent of the east? Have you heard anything like that?

There is absolutely enough oil in the Gulf and Alaska and Colorado and off the coast of California to reduce our imports by half or more. The so-called "experts" have been claiming that oil production has been on the cusp of peaking... they've been saying it for 40 years. Technology has gotten better and the success rate of new wells has gone from 20% in the 1930s to around 70% today. The oil is there and there's plenty of it right in our own backyard. The politicians need to let us get to it.

[FirefightnRick]

I don't think folks truly care one bit how much fuel costs because if they did they would slow down and drive more conservatively and try and save some of it. I just don't see that happening on the highway. People speed up, slow down, then speed up again just to get back up within 6 feet of someone ahead of them traveling 90mph, only to have to hit the brakes again. Over and over and over again. There's no way in hell you can get your best fuel milage that way?

Rick

[KingDL1]

I don't think folks truly care one bit how much fuel costs because if they did they would slow down and drive more conservatively and try and save some of it. I just don't see that happening on the highway. People speed up, slow down, then speed up again just to get back up within 6 feet of someone ahead of them traveling 90mph, only to have to hit the brakes again. Over and over and over again. There's no way in hell you can get your best fuel milage that way?

Rick

Rick, dang man why do you have to make fun of my driving?

Gas for the Tahoe tonight $81.09

[DeepGreen]

I don't think folks truly care one bit how much fuel costs because if they did they would slow down and drive more conservatively and try and save some of it. I just don't see that happening on the highway. People speed up, slow down, then speed up again just to get back up within 6 feet of someone ahead of them traveling 90mph, only to have to hit the brakes again. Over and over and over again. There's no way in hell you can get your best fuel milage that way?

Rick

True. But I also think the auto/truck manufacturers could do a better job with gas milage. I've driven two Suburbans in recent years, a 1994 and a 2000, putting 130,000+ miles on each. You can't kill a Surburban. Both got around 19-20 miles per gallon on the highway, 15 in the city. Fourteen and eight years later, I now drive a Tahoe "FlexFuel". I still get 20 mpg highway and 15 city. Not one bit of improvement. I drive the Tahoe because I need the passenger capacity. I looked at other, gas saving alternatives, but they just are not out there.

And we need to remember, the U.S. is not some European country where you can drive across several in a matter of hours in some small, 5 foot long matchbox of a car. Try driving 8 hours in one of those things. Or, make a trip out to Colorado. Not fun.

The auto manufacturers need to do a better job with fuel economy.

[GreenMachine]

what's really scary to me is if a couple of hundred more bucks a month is putting a damper on peoples spending, there are a lot of people just scraping by. I know people that will blow wads of money on cars they can't afford, houses that are way too big and expensive for what they make, take vacations they shouldn't, then turn around and have to cut spending due to gas prices. Seems like irresponsible spending to me.

[KingDL1]

True. But I also think the auto/truck manufacturers could do a better job with gas milage. I've driven two Suburbans in recent years, a 1994 and a 2000, putting 130,000+ miles on each. You can't kill a Surburban. Both got around 19-20 miles per gallon on the highway, 15 in the city. Fourteen and eight years later, I now drive a Tahoe "FlexFuel". I still get 20 mpg highway and 15 city. Not one bit of improvement. I drive the Tahoe because I need the passenger capacity. I looked at other, gas saving alternatives, but they just are not out there.

And we need to remember, the U.S. is not some European country where you can drive across several in a matter of hours in some small, 5 foot long matchbox of a car. Try driving 8 hours in one of those things. Or, make a trip out to Colorado. Not fun.

The auto manufacturers need to do a better job with fuel economy.

I saw an interesting article on gas mileage and fuel efficiency sometime last year and it discussed the quality of gas now verses the early nineties and how even though the car manufacturers have made improvements with computerized metering and injection adding ethanol has nullified those improvements, it said if the ethanol has not absorbed any water you will make 10 to 15 percent less gas mileage and if it has (and most has some water it) you can have as much a 30% or more worse gas mileage. Then it went in to how this can cause engine damage and corrosion. That with condensation there is very little you can do about, because water traps don't work anymore. At the end of the day adding ethanol to gas is a big mistake, if they can get the price of ethanol down cheap enough and not use food or food land to make it, they should just sell straight ethanol, all the flex vehicles can use it.

Edited April 25, 2008 by KingDL1

[meangreendork]

what's really scary to me is if a couple of hundred more bucks a month is putting a damper on peoples spending, there are a lot of people just scraping by. I know people that will blow wads of money on cars they can't afford, houses that are way too big and expensive for what they make, take vacations they shouldn't, then turn around and have to cut spending due to gas prices. Seems like irresponsible spending to me.

Take a drive to Flower Mound sometime. The folks there make a good amount of money. They're not rich, but they're definitely not hanging out in the lower end of the income scale. That said, they often have the money for down payments on big ticket purchases, but then after they add up multiples of these (cars, house, furniture, electronics), it really does squeeze them hard. Again, irresponsible spending, ala keeping up with the Joneses'.

As for fuel economy- yeah, you can't optimize your gas mileage by jamming your car to top speed and braking hard all the time. However, maybe technology and gasoline have hit their limits with fuel efficiency? Mind you, I'm not a scientist by any means, but I'd think we'd be getting close to the ceiling of what gasoline can do.

[DeepGreen]

Hey, we could all drive Mopeds like they do in Viet Nam and other SE Asian countries. No, that won't work. They cause too much polution.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Hey, we could all drive Mopeds like they do in Viet Nam and other SE Asian countries. No, that won't work. They cause too much polution.

We just need to get used to paying around 3 - 4 dollars per gallon for the forseable future. Even with Hybrid cars, the gas companies will be used to makeing the profits they are, so even with less consumption or even better milage, they will still find a way to get us to pay. The ethanol should be taken out - whoever sold our government on that could probably sell that ocean front property in AZ.

[meangreendork]

We just need to get used to paying around 3 - 4 dollars per gallon for the forseable future. Even with Hybrid cars, the gas companies will be used to makeing the profits they are, so even with less consumption or even better milage, they will still find a way to get us to pay. The ethanol should be taken out - whoever sold our government on that could probably sell that ocean front property in AZ.

I think Hybrids are the better way to go, at least with everyday use vehicles. I'm not sure if that's a viable option on heavy duty trucks and such, but for the average person, a Hybrid is probably a far better option. I don't think we'll get used to pay $3-4/gal until our average income goes up accordingly, otherwise, it's still gonna sting.

[DeepGreen]

I think Hybrids are the better way to go, at least with everyday use vehicles. I'm not sure if that's a viable option on heavy duty trucks and such, but for the average person, a Hybrid is probably a far better option. I don't think we'll get used to pay $3-4/gal until our average income goes up accordingly, otherwise, it's still gonna sting.

Maybe so, but if the government really wanted us to purchase these hybrids then they should make them tax exempt when you purchase them. Some type of incentive for the buyer.

[FirefightnRick]

As for fuel economy- yeah, you can't optimize your gas mileage by jamming your car to top speed and braking hard all the time.

One of the reasons I bring up fuel economy and how people drive is from my very own experiences. I drive slowly, at or just under the speed limit. Anyone of you who has ridden with me to a game knows this. I "grandpa" it all the way and it drives everyone nuts but it's just how it is with me. The guys I work with make fun of me about how they blow by me all the time driving in to the firehall. But I stay in the slow lane where I'm suppose to be. But every vehicle I've owned, GT Mustang(High Performance), Chevy Pickup, Ford Expedition, and now a very heavy Ford F150 and the parents suburban now and then, all of these vehicles matter greatly in how you drive them as to how much mileage you get.

Remember the Arkansas State game in 1989-90, in Jonesborro? I made that trip in my GT. It's Borg-Warner T5 transmission had a hell of a 5th speed overdrive that allowed you to travel at low RPM's, and instead of hauling ass, weaving in and out of traffic for 7 hours I drove 55 mph all the way and got 25 MPG. Two of our three trips to New Orleans we got 23 MPG in the wife's Ford Expedition on the trip down driving 60 to 65, by slowly getting up to speed and maintaining that in between stops. When I got back from the first time I took the thing straight to the dealership to find out what kind of rearend it had(fearing I had gotten some kind of screwed up order than what I was suppose to have) because I couldn't believe that mileage was possible. The Dealership didn't believe me either, but it was true. Then my current F150. The main knock on this truck was that even though it was heavy and safe, it had horrible gas mileage ratings. Some consumer websites had people telling how they were only getting 12 to 14 MPG in a new truck. Then I found out what people were calling "Egg Shell" driving supposely was making a difference. Luckily my truck came with the optional 3:55 gears instead of the 3:75. I started to try the "Egg Shell" driving, meaning drive it like you have an Egg Shell between your foot and the accellerator(Which I already did anyways). When I can do it safely, I get up to speed slowly while merging onto the highway and stay at that speed throughout. I don't break hard because I leave more than enough room between me and the car ahead of me. I don't change lanes and rarely have to down shift to pass because everyone else is blowing by me going 10, 15, 20 or more MPH over the speed limit so I can stay the same speed during my entire commute. In doing this I immediately started to get 17 to 18 mpg. Before any trip I change the air filters of course. And during two trips to New Orleans and last years' trip to Fayetteville I got 19.6 mpg. Ask anyone who has an F150 and they'll tell you that's absolutely impossible. But it's not.

Sure, it's not 35 to 40 mpg that some compacts get. But it'll do so much more because it's a 4x4, has a 10,000 lb tow rating, carry more people(the entire tribe comfortably, very comfortably) and carry a hell of a lot more cargo so that I can get all the needed tailgating supplies to and from the game and most importantly, do all of this SAFELY.

Rick