Gas Prices

BeanCounterGrad'03 · April 15, 2008

Lets not forget that ethanol driving up food prices, which sucks for me and you, is tragic for the millions of people in the world on food aid or are just scrapping an existence out of bad circumstances. Ethanol production is one of the factors in that: Economist Article.
Ethanol's ability to absorb moisture, such as that in pipelines, means it is impossible to pipeline lone distances. Say hello to more refineries.

From the news releases I'm seeing (I work in the agriculture industry), cellulosic (sp?) ethanol will solve many of the problem with conflicts in food shortages because its made from switchgrass, trash, and any other kind of waste biomass. The only conflict it would have with the food industry if all ethanol is transition to this type of production is land for growing switchgrass on (doesn't require very fertile soil like corn) and the use of cornstalks and hay that would otherwise be used to feed cattle. I've seen varying reports saying that the energy units produced to energy units used in the production of switchgrass ethanol is anywhere from 4:1 to 10:1. Corn ethanol's ratio is 1.3:1.

As far as more refineries, that might be a blessing in disguise because if a shut down happens at one refinery, it really won't affect the price much (if at all) nationwide; only in the area the refinery is located because they'd have to truck in the fuel.

Of course, I'm a Bean Counter, not an Engineer. So, I may be wrong.

UNTflyer · April 15, 2008

I have a real problem with turning food into fuel.

There is nothing wrong with using oil and natural gas for energy... we just need the government to get out of our way and let us find it.

forevereagle · April 15, 2008

I have a real problem with turning food into fuel.

I do it everday.

Green Mean · April 15, 2008

I do it everday.

:lol:

Pure genius I tell ya

meangreendork · April 16, 2008

I have a real problem with turning food into fuel.
There is nothing wrong with using oil and natural gas for energy... we just need the government to get out of our way and let us find it.

Agreed. Bad deal. I'd like to think there are other additives that don't require cutting into food supplies.

UNTflyer · April 16, 2008

I do it everday.

Bravo, sir.

Bryan316 · April 17, 2008

From the news releases I'm seeing (I work in the agriculture industry), cellulosic (sp?) ethanol will solve many of the problem with conflicts in food shortages because its made from switchgrass, trash, and any other kind of waste biomass. The only conflict it would have with the food industry if all ethanol is transition to this type of production is land for growing switchgrass on (doesn't require very fertile soil like corn) and the use of cornstalks and hay that would otherwise be used to feed cattle.

BeanCounterGrad'03 · April 18, 2008

:lol: Yea! Kinda like that.

yyz28 · April 18, 2008

Wow, this thread is entertaining -

You have a lot of things causing this problem right now, most of which are governmental. They can be categorized as Regulation and Taxes.

Taxes on gasoline are in orbit. Politicians from both side of the isle like to bitch and moan about these winfall profits the oil companies are making, but they live in a glass house. From 1977 to 2004, the Federal and state governments made $1,343,100,000 in taxes. The Major US oil companies saw $643,000,000 in GROSS (not net) profit during that same period. It was Monday of this week for the first time that a politician (McCain, you can choose to believe if he really thinks it is a good idea or if he is pandering for votes) actually suggested suspending taxes on Gasoline during this crunch to help out the economy that is in a crunch because of Credit fears and High Energy prices.

Regulation comes in many forms. The inabiltiy to build more refinement capacity is part of the problem. The inability because a bunch of environmental whacko mental midgets are afraid we might disrupt the humping cycles of the majestic Moose in ANWR, and because individual states have the right to stop drilling in federal waters off their coasts. We have a great deal of resources still right under us, we should be working to put them into production, and stop concerning ourselves with the rare snail we might kill in the process. ...then each state has different blends they allow, which increases costs a great deal, and then each year the refineries have to shut down and re-tool to make the summer blends.

The other thing that is pushing fuel prices higher are pimple faced dweebs in their underwear sitting at home in their underwear trading comodities all day long. (they call it Craps in Las Vegas, but I digress). Allowing the General Public who doesn't know sh!t from shinola about world politics, energy pressures or even how to spell economics are in huge part pressing up the cost of oil, and they act and react on the daily news like the supply of oil is going to tank overnight somehow because the Iranian government waved its collective prick at us today.

From the news releases I'm seeing (I work in the agriculture industry), cellulosic (sp?) ethanol will solve many of the problem with conflicts in food shortages because its made from switchgrass, trash, and any other kind of waste biomass. The only conflict it would have with the food industry if all ethanol is transition to this type of production is land for growing switchgrass on (doesn't require very fertile soil like corn) and the use of cornstalks and hay that would otherwise be used to feed cattle. I've seen varying reports saying that the energy units produced to energy units used in the production of switchgrass ethanol is anywhere from 4:1 to 10:1. Corn ethanol's ratio is 1.3:1.

Ethonol is not the answer. I don't care what you grow to produce it. You still have to use land. Land being used to produce fuel isn't being used to produce food. Ethonol is inefficiant compared to Gasoline, and even with swtichgrass or other meathods, we can't produce enough of it to really replace gasoline. Hydrogen appears to be the best bet for long term mobile power. It is easy to obtain, easy to produce and the exhaust is water and oxygen. It is really the perfect fuel. Hydrogyn Fuel Cell is going to be the long term answer moving forward.

We can take the demand off of our fossil fuel resources if we would follow the european example and build more nuclear power plants.

GoMeanGreen1999 · April 21, 2008

Filled up yesturday for 3.28 a gallon at Kroger (.10 cents off) and see that oil went to $117 today, so I guess it will be 3.50 next time I fill up. Guess the day it costs me $50 dollars (44 yesturday) to fill up my Honda Accord, I will need to think about selling it to buy an economy car.

Edited April 21, 2008 by GoMeanGreen1999

BeanCounterGrad'03 · April 21, 2008

Ethonol is not the answer. I don't care what you grow to produce it. You still have to use land. Land being used to produce fuel isn't being used to produce food. Ethonol is inefficiant compared to Gasoline, and even with swtichgrass or other meathods, we can't produce enough of it to really replace gasoline. Hydrogen appears to be the best bet for long term mobile power. It is easy to obtain, easy to produce and the exhaust is water and oxygen. It is really the perfect fuel. Hydrogyn Fuel Cell is going to be the long term answer moving forward.

I have to disagree with you on this to a point. Ethanol is not the only answer and any evironmental scientist worth his pocket protector will tell you that in order for the US energy needs to become self sustaining, it will take a combination of solutions: ethanol, biodiesel, hydrogen, solar, wind, geothermal, etc., etc. But, from the research I've done, ethanol and biodiesel are the closest right now to providing a reasonable alternative to petroleum for our transportation needs. Hydrogen has a ways to go (at least 20-30 years by some estimates) until it is cheap and efficient enough to be a viable alternative. Until that time comes, ethanol might fill a key role.

Switchgrass is a very common plant that can be grown almost anywhere and does not require alot of water, so you wouldn't have to really touch any current farm land if the logistics were planned out and controlled properly (which is difficult in a free market economy). I recently read an MIT article about bacteria that are being developed to be able to turn plastics and rubber (trash) into ethanol. Here is the link for anyone interested...alot of geekspeak thrown around, very interesting:

Tires and trash into fuel?

Bottom line is that none of alternatives have been able to match petroleum...yet. But its great that a big push is being made after almost a century of relative inactivity in non-petroleum transportation research.

We can take the demand off of our fossil fuel resources if we would follow the european example and build more nuclear power plants.

I fully agree with you on this!

UNTflyer · April 21, 2008

A major issue with ethanol and biofuels is that they can't be transported by pipeline. Ethanol would have to be transported by trucks... putting even higher demand for fuel. So what do we do with the infrastructure that took 75 years to build up? Also, ethanol is less effecient, requiring more gallons to burn and in turn, more money per mile out of our pockets.

Ethanol has been a pipe dream for over 30 years now. if it were economically viable, it would have happened by now. The only people pushing it are politicians and corn farmers.

UNTflyer · April 21, 2008

We can take the demand off of our fossil fuel resources if we would follow the european example and build more nuclear power plants.

Ditto

Cerebus · April 21, 2008

Mother Jones magazine just came with this interesting article on the nuclear option: Click!

BeanCounterGrad'03 · April 21, 2008

A major issue with ethanol and biofuels is that they can't be transported by pipeline. Ethanol would have to be transported by trucks... putting even higher demand for fuel. So what do we do with the infrastructure that took 75 years to build up? Also, ethanol is less effecient, requiring more gallons to burn and in turn, more money per mile out of our pockets.
Ethanol has been a pipe dream for over 30 years now. if it were economically viable, it would have happened by now. The only people pushing it are politicians and corn farmers.

I don't think the pipeline issue will be as big an issue as you think it will be. There are currently approx. 150 ethanol refineries in the US (and growing). Most of these are smaller refineries that are concentrated in the midwest, but that is because corn has been the only option for making it up until the last couple of years. As far as the infrastructure, it will become obsolete, but that's like arguing that automobiles aren't a good idea because they will put horses out of work.

You got me on ethanol being less efficient...however, its currently selling for approx. 2.20 per gallon up here in CO (gas is going for approx. 3.40). Granted, there are gov. subsidies that are helping keep that price low right now, but breakthroughs have been made and will continue to be made (I'm keepin' the faith :rolleyes: ) to keep decreasing production costs. Every indicator I've seen points to gas prices to continue rising: mainly China & India demand, and research into new technology to be able to keep extracting oil from more challenging locations.

The only reason ethanol has been a pipe dream is because the technology was not available until very recently (see the link in my previous post as an example). The reason many people are pushing it (and its not just politicians and corn farmers), is because breakthroughs are making it a much more viable alternative energy solution.

BeanCounterGrad'03 · April 21, 2008

Mother Jones magazine just came with this interesting article on the nuclear option: Click!

That is pretty interesting...we'll see if it happens. (hope so)

meangreendork · April 21, 2008

I recently read an MIT article about bacteria that are being developed to be able to turn plastics and rubber (trash) into ethanol. Here is the link for anyone interested...alot of geekspeak thrown around, very interesting:
Tires and trash into fuel?

One step closer to Mr. Fusion.

UNTflyer · April 21, 2008

Mother Jones magazine just came with this interesting article on the nuclear option: Click!

France has the cleanest air of all industrialized nations, and they use nuclear a lot.

Green Mean · April 21, 2008

And the moral of this thread is that gas prices suck ass.

BeanCounterGrad'03 · April 21, 2008

And the moral of this thread is that gas prices suck ass.

Amen!

Football season, get here fast!!!

UNTFan23 · April 22, 2008

France has the cleanest air of all industrialized nations, and they use nuclear a lot.

Nuclear is great except for when it comes time to dispose those spent fuel rods that you can't throw away just anywhere.

greenminer · April 22, 2008

Nuclear is great except for when it comes time to dispose those spent fuel rods that you can't throw away just anywhere.

someone show them where Fouts is.

UNTflyer · April 22, 2008

Nuclear is great except for when it comes time to dispose those spent fuel rods that you can't throw away just anywhere.

True, but we've a giant hole in the desert nowhere near any water supply where they can be kept until we figure out what to do with them...

Also, the French, due to their commitment of improving nuclear technology, have begun experimenting with reusing spent rods.

Bryan316 · April 22, 2008

The self-rejuvenating salt mines are where they store nuclear waste now. Or they could shoot the drums into the sun with a large rail launcher. You know, whichever is more convenient.