Da Belt

LoveMG · March 25, 2008

Ok, now you're just being silly.

no, he is correct. if you put unt into the big 12 our home attendance would be 40,000+ the first season just because of unt fans wanting to see the opponents. opponents do draw crowds or undraw them too.

emmitt01 · March 25, 2008

no, he is correct. if you put unt into the big 12 our home attendance would be 40,000+ the first season just because of unt fans wanting to see the opponents. opponents do draw crowds or undraw them too.

No, he's not correct. If UT were in the Sun Belt their attendance wouldn't drop off near as quickly as he says it would. His argument wasn't that NT's attendance would increase in the Big XII, duh, it was that UT's would plummet in the Belt.

And of course we would draw 40,000 in the Big XII...but I'm not sure ANY of us want 40,000 person crowds at Fouts that are 2/3 maroon, orange, or red and black...or do we? I'm simply saying that we have got to stop accepting our opponents as a reason we can't fill our stadium. We need to draw fans because of North Texas, not because of Rice, SMU, Baylor etc.

Not to mention that fact that the "CUSA or bust" crowd has it all backwards. CUSA is not gonna come calling, and magically fix all our problems, if we continue to be unable to draw on our own. You think that if we had averaged 20,000 for a ten year period prior to CUSA looking at us this last go 'round that they would have been able to turn us down? I sure don't. Britton Banowski is not sitting in his office just chomping at the bit to invite a school with an enrollment of over 30,000 and attendace at about half that number. Believe it or not, if we win 7-10 games a year consistently for a five year period in the belt we will average about 22-25,000...I'd guarantee it. And, no, the N.O. Bowl years are no indication of what we could do. Dickeyball vs. Dodgeball leaves no comparison.

Bottom line is we have got to look in the mirror and take care of our business ourselves. Geez, some of us act like a guy who's dating an average looking woman and wants to date a Victoria's Secret model...but our gameplan is to associate ourselves with Brad Pitt and George Clooney hoping they'll bring the babes along with them. Sorry, aint gonna work that way.

Eagle1855 · March 25, 2008

No, he's not correct. If UT were in the Sun Belt their attendance wouldn't drop off near as quickly as he says it would. His argument wasn't that NT's attendance would increase in the Big XII, duh, it was that UT's would plummet in the Belt.
And of course we would draw 40,000 in the Big XII...but I'm not sure ANY of us want 40,000 person crowds at Fouts that are 2/3 maroon, orange, or red and black...or do we? I'm simply saying that we have got to stop accepting our opponents as a reason we can't fill our stadium. We need to draw fans because of North Texas, not because of Rice, SMU, Baylor etc.

The argument is the same either way, just a differing perspective. Feel free to ask any orangebloods you know (I know plenty) and they will all tell you they would have zero interest in paying $50+ per game to play the likes of ULL, ULM, FIU, etc all season.

I also completely disagree that the crowds would be 2/3 our opponents if we were in the Big 12. We arent Baylor. Our alumni base isnt scattered, it's very much localized. we have 3 times the student body.

I never said we don't have work to do in our own house and I never insinuated CUSA was the answer to all of our problems. I don't believe that to be true. I also believe that we should aspire to win every single game we play no matter the conference. We clearly haven't yet done that.

You can argue with me all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the types of opponents you play DOES matter to the general fan base. It does matter to the casual fan (the guy or gal that isnt sitting on this board every day typing away just to read themselves in print) and the person that isnt generally interested in sports. I have a good friend that made the SMU game just because it was a local rival. He hates football and most team sports, but he came because of who we played. Nobody cares about my friend, but my point is that I highly doubt he's the only one.

And I still don't understand why ArkStFan keeps talking about Rice. We're nothing like Rice. We haven't any aspirations to BE like Rice. If you're going to compare us to former SWC schools, talk about Houston. They are basically the same school (except they actually have a law school) 280 miles south with the same problems (pro sports, mid major conference, commuter image) as UNT. And you know what? After the SWC, they couldn't get a bunch of people to their games until they started winning in a conference that had a lot of regional rivalries.

filmerj · March 25, 2008

Well I think that conference strength does attract quality athletes. Most of these guys want to play ball at the next level, the only way some of these guys get noticed is by having t.v. games, which we have no t.v. games, no contract not even a hint of one. it's hard to win without athletes, it's hard to beat the big boys without comparable talent. I am not dissing our guys, just saying that if we want to get the "good gets"We have to be able to compete against the big boys, which attract fans and all the other stuff that follows good programs. It's a vicious cycle.

LoveMG · March 25, 2008

No, he's not correct. If UT were in the Sun Belt their attendance wouldn't drop off near as quickly as he says it would. His argument wasn't that NT's attendance would increase in the Big XII, duh, it was that UT's would plummet in the Belt.
And of course we would draw 40,000 in the Big XII...but I'm not sure ANY of us want 40,000 person crowds at Fouts that are 2/3 maroon, orange, or red and black...or do we? I'm simply saying that we have got to stop accepting our opponents as a reason we can't fill our stadium. We need to draw fans because of North Texas, not because of Rice, SMU, Baylor etc.
Not to mention that fact that the "CUSA or bust" crowd has it all backwards. CUSA is not gonna come calling, and magically fix all our problems, if we continue to be unable to draw on our own. You think that if we had averaged 20,000 for a ten year period prior to CUSA looking at us this last go 'round that they would have been able to turn us down? I sure don't. Britton Banowski is not sitting in his office just chomping at the bit to invite a school with an enrollment of over 30,000 and attendace at about half that number. Believe it or not, if we win 7-10 games a year consistently for a five year period in the belt we will average about 22-25,000...I'd guarantee it. And, no, the N.O. Bowl years are no indication of what we could do. Dickeyball vs. Dodgeball leaves no comparison.
Bottom line is we have got to look in the mirror and take care of our business ourselves. Geez, some of us act like a guy who's dating an average looking woman and wants to date a Victoria's Secret model...but our gameplan is to associate ourselves with Brad Pitt and George Clooney hoping they'll bring the babes along with them. Sorry, aint gonna work that way.

it is too easy to chide fans for not coming to all unt games all the time just because unt is playing. we do not have enough hard core fans like that and you cannot make new fans into that overnight. we do not have a 50 year history of tickets being hard to get and generations doing that. many unt fans, and walk up fans too, choose only certain games to attend and those are the attractive opponent ones. wku = 5000, navy = 27000

LongJim · March 25, 2008

What, no mention of OU's attendance? What about USC? Michigan? Ohio And let's not talk about UT. UT used to have attendance problems before they started winning 10 games every season- and were therefore playing for something every year, as FFR alluded. Winning builds interest. IF you don't win any games, you at least want to play some teams that are intriguing. Not doing either almost always results in poor attendance. In fact, I doubt you can think of an example of a team that isnt in a BCS conference that can maintain high levels of attendance without winning.

After reading through this thread, I talked to a guy I work with (who played roundball at Creighton for 4 years) the following question:

"Did you guys see bigger crowds when you played bigger name teams?" (Creighton regularly played Tulsa, Marquette, and Memphis.)

He thought a minute, and then responded: "You gotta win. If you win games, people show up. Don't matter who you're playing."

greenminer · March 25, 2008

You all are trying to deal in absolutes. Only a Sith Lor...

It's a little bit of both here:

If UT were in the Belt there might be a huge drop off in interest because of opponents, but not enough see a significant drop in announced attendance. UT has been winning for DECADES. There are people lined up to see UT because it's UT, not because of the opponent. We could go on about the economic/long-term impact because of donors and season-ticket holders loss (perhaps leading into a ticket price cut)...but I think that is beyond the realm of the thread's argument

If UNT were in the Big XII, we'd probably get some interest because of opponents, but if we're not winning then people are going to tire/lose the hype for getting our arses handed to us every year.

I would also hate to see our beloved Fouts field half-burnt orange, crimson, or Red Raider red every season. ugh. The local bandwaggoners/Big XII alum would infest our pig. probably smudge the lipstick.

untjim1995 · March 25, 2008

After reading through this thread, I talked to a guy I work with (who played roundball at Creighton for 4 years) the following question:
"Did you guys see bigger crowds when you played bigger name teams?" (Creighton regularly played Tulsa, Marquette, and Memphis.)
He thought a minute, and then responded: "You gotta win. If you win games, people show up. Don't matter who you're playing."

I don't know if I agree with this. TCU has been good-to-great for a while now and their attendance has been around 30K for that whole time. But, when Tech or Baylor show up, the crowds are huge and Patterson even says that these games mean more to the fans and his team than the MWC games do because of Texas ties. As a matter of fact, TCU's average attendance last year was 30K, which was 77th out of 119 I-A teams. I know that the winning helps, but so does playing teams that people care to go see--like the Texas schools, for example. They know that the casual Ft. Worth fan that has taken up TCU as their home-team want to see OU, Tech, Baylor, etc. come to town. When they play a FCS team at home or a MWC doormat, their crowds are not close to 30K.

All that being said, your Creighton friend is right about winning!!

Arkstfan · March 25, 2008

And I still don't understand why ArkStFan keeps talking about Rice. We're nothing like Rice. We haven't any aspirations to BE like Rice. If you're going to compare us to former SWC schools, talk about Houston. They are basically the same school (except they actually have a law school) 280 miles south with the same problems (pro sports, mid major conference, commuter image) as UNT. And you know what? After the SWC, they couldn't get a bunch of people to their games until they started winning in a conference that had a lot of regional rivalries.

Pay better attention then.

Rice got cut because they never developed a fan base.

Let's talk Houston why don't we.

1995 Last year of SWC. Averaged 19,972 hosting Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, SMU and La.Tech. Top crowd 32,520 for Texas. Averaged 16,835 for the games other than Texas.

1996 First year of CUSA. Averaged 17,551 host USC, UNC, Sam Houston, Memphis, Southern Miss, and Louisville. Top crowd 21,035 for USC. Averaged 16,854 for the games other than USC.

2006. Averaged 20,507, hosted Tulane, Grambling, Oklahoma State, ULL, UTEP, UCF, Tulsa. Top crowd 28,260 for Oklahoma State narrowly edging out Grambling. I discarded the CUSA championship even though it drew 31,818. Averaged 19,215 for games other than Oklahoma State and the CUSA championship.

Going back to the last winning SWC season.

1990. 26,589, hosted TAMU, Rice, Arkansas, TCU, UNLV, and Eastern Washington. Top crowd 45,141 for TAMU. That was a 10-1 squad coming off a 9-2 record and their biggest crowds were for TAMU and Arkansas, schools noted for bringing a lot of fans. Throw out the TAMU game and they drew.... 22,879.

Conference affiliation didn't have a huge impact other than a few big crowds that didn't come back.

It goes back to developing your own fan base.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Arkstfan

Arkstfan · March 25, 2008

If Texas and Texas A&M joined the Sun Belt the media in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston would rave about what a great league it is and how the affiliation will make national championship dreams come true.

emmitt01 · March 25, 2008

wku = 5000, navy = 27000

Again, more silliness. I think you and I BOTH know there was a laundry list of reasons why the WKU game was attended the way that it was...though I'll grant you that the attractiveness of the opponent was one of them.

And I've still yet to see an answer to the crux of my argument. Where will this magical CUSA invite come from if we can't prove to be able to stand on our own two feet? I know they took in SMU who was doing comparable to what we're doing in the WAC...but they also took them as part of a package with several other teams. I don't see them taking us based on the promise that "we'll start to draw when OUR fanbase starts to care about the opponent." Spin it any way you want, it won't change the fact that we'll be counting on opponents to bring our crowds...whether it be their fanbase traveling or their name inspiring our "fans."

Eagle1855 · March 25, 2008

I dont think C-USA answers all of our problems. Never said it did. I just think playing decent programs helps with attendance. No matter how you manipulate the numbers, it DOES help.

UNT will never average 30k until- as I said before- it becomes a "destination" for students, not just a place that's fine because it's "close to home". That's the root of the problem with our fan base. People don't seem to be PROUD to have gone to UNT- at least not many of the older alums, and maybe that's a carryover from the 1AA days. I've said on here before I DO think that culture is changing, but it is a slow process. We probably wont see the fruits of that for several years.

I also think it helps for people to see and believe that the university is actually COMMITTED to having a legit athletics program- which Im 50/50 on whether or not that's actually the case right now.

In the interim, playing notable teams would certainly help. Playing schools that people say "aren't they a D-2 school?" about isn't good for grabbing the casual sports fan and getting them to set aside an evening to go up to Denton for a game.

Winning games would help the most- I don't disagree with that opinion. I've echoed the same sentiment dozens of times on this very board. Truthfully, it isnt just one thing that makes for a respectable athletics program that garners the support of the fans, alums, students, and surrounding communities. They are all interrelated.

If you disagree with my opinions, fine. Just tell me why. Tell us all HOW you can build a fan base. I don't claim to have all the answers, I've just lived in a few different places, closely watched a couple of college teams, and have a lot of big time sports fan friends that went to a lot of the "major" programs. My experience (and therefore opinion) is limited to that.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Eagle1855

emmitt01 · March 25, 2008

If you disagree with my opinions, fine. Just tell me why. Tell us all HOW you can build a fan base.

I don't claim to have this answer. If I had it I would have given it to NT's administration a decade ago. But I'll tell you how you keep a fanbase from being eroded away as you try to build it. You demand excellence! You don't cling to excuses. You don't say "If we only had a new stadium", "If we were in a different conference", "If we had baseball" etc that our problems would be solved. I'm not claiming that this is your stance but it is a cancerous attitude that permeates even this board. Go back and read any thread, pretty much, and you'll see the "woe is us, the Belt is holding us back" or "I don't blame people for not being excited about ULM, WKU, etc". Or you'll see "Nobody will ever come to see NT while we're playing at Fouts" posts. We have got to stop with this mentality. It's self-defeating and places our fate in the hands of forces we can't control! How do we change this you ask? If you are an alum who reads this board wake up and realize that you must support your university with your attendance and financial support so that we can make that next stride. If you have friends who are NT alums and aren't season ticket holders or don't come back to campus you DON'T engage in the "sun belt sucks" or "fouts blows" conversations with them...why further reinforce to them that they are right to stay away? If you're a student do what I used to do when I was on campus. If you see someone in a Longhorn shirt, especially when we're playing UT, call them on it! Inquire why they are do devoid of self-confidence that they have to cling to a bandwagon. Let's be honest, the biggest reason people won't show outward support for NT is that it's not yet "en vogue". And you do everything you can to drum up the excitement of those who ARE on board. Make every experience that people have at a North Texas game the best time of their lives. I can't count the number of times someone has posted on this board that a friend/fellow alum came to a game for the first time in years and had a blast...and then begged to come back. Let's keep that up! Basically you refuse to hear anyone who would tear down our great university or its sports teams...and you DEFINITELY don't do the dirty work for them!

Look, we all would like to be in CUSA, or the Big XII, or the Mountain West...or heaven forbid the WAC. But we're not. So the question then becomes how can we best help our athletic department while we're in the belt. Will we "bloom where we're planted" or will we wither in our sour grapes attitudes? I'd say the former is the way to go. That means that we encourage everyone we know to come out to games with us because North Texas is playing...even if it means buying them a ticket for their first taste. (Hell, it works for drug dealers...why can't it work for us?) Or maybe we set up an awesome tailgate party and invite all our friends...my tailgate is ALWAYS open for new people.

The problem won't be fixed overnight. Nor should it be. But we're doomed if we begrudge our weaknesses every step of the way.

Eagle1855 · March 25, 2008

Well I see we agree on pretty much everything- more than I realized. Solid points, all around.

Now, are you sure more flyers wouldnt help?

March 25, 2008

Well I see we agree on pretty much everything- more than I realized. Solid points, all around.
Now, are you sure more flyers wouldnt help?

It's banners! Get it straight. And yes, somewhat.

AnotherEagleFan · March 26, 2008

The answer is simple.... MONEY.. The question is how to get it... AND I still think that a few good alumni (with shallow pockets) can make the biggest impact. We hired a professional one time to get us a sell out game. It worked. and the opponent was forgettable. Really I can't remember the opponent but the game was fun and we won big... The "professional" put together a team (12-16) of somewhat popular alumni. They in their spare time had a competition to see who could sell the most tickets. The tickets went at a discounted rate and was 1st come 1st serve at the game (other then season ticket holders). Basically they oversold the game and had a spill over area (bleachered endzone). People came that had not been to a game in years. They saw a product that they had not seen before. We are not just killing the attendance numbers but our season average has climed pretty well since then. I really think that it took us to the next level of over 20K....