Da Belt

stebo · March 23, 2008

What a spectacular school year for the Belt! Great OOC wins on the football side and conference ended up ranked ahead of the MAC for the season. Now basketball has done what CUSA and the WAC could not do - placed two teams into the tourney... with one team advancing two rounds to the Sweet 16. Our conference is now ranked above the WAC for men's hoops and we might jump even higher after the win today by WKY. WKY has moved up in football, our fledgling FAU program is getting national attention for their gridiron success, and FIU is building their new stadium. The Belt has been a big experiment but it is really starting to shape up nicely. I know that almost every member of the Belt aspires to be in a higher profile conference; but you never know - maybe we will be that higher profile conference in the future and CUSA members will want to join up with us? I mean, things are really coming together in Belt land... you just never know.

FirefightnRick · March 23, 2008

What a spectacular school year for the Belt! Great OOC wins on the football side and conference ended up ranked ahead of the MAC for the season. Now basketball has done what CUSA and the WAC could not do - placed two teams into the tourney... with one team advancing two rounds to the Sweet 16. Our conference is now ranked above the WAC for men's hoops and we might jump even higher after the win today by WKY. WKY has moved up in football, our fledgling FAU program is getting national attention for their gridiron success, and FIU is building their new stadium. The Belt has been a big experiment but it is really starting to shape up nicely. I know that almost every member of the Belt aspires to be in a higher profile conference; but you never know - maybe we will be that higher profile conference in the future and CUSA members will want to join up with us? I mean, things are really coming together in Belt land... you just never know.

I couldn't agree with you more. And, where have you been?

Rick

stebo · March 24, 2008

Work! Oh, and a bad car accident. My truck has been declared dead by the insurance company and my whiplash is just now going away! I am doing my best to catch up on all of the posts, lol.

Danish42 · March 24, 2008

Do you think stebo we can send you some flowers or something if though we are guys?

I hope you get up to par.

March 24, 2008

Sorry to hear about your misfortune, Stebo.

I can't really disagree with your assessment of the Belt, especially for this year. There are some nice things happening on the fields and courts. Now if we can just get that to relate to the stands. CUSA still outdraws us by a hellacious amount even though the strength of each conference's teams (except for Memphis basketball) is not that far apart.

I have concerns that two or three of the Belt will ever be great draws in football or basketball. FIU's new campus stadium still will hold only 17,000 and will it be filled? ULM is drawing less than 15,000 except in the years when the Arkansas game in Little Rock counts as a home game for them. FAU still has to build a campus stadium but I am heartened by the fact that they drew two 20,000 crowds last year. None are great basketball draws either. We have nothing to go on as to how well South Alabama will do in football but they are formidable in basketball.

A lot of travel expense could be saved if CUSA and the Belt divided along geographical lines. The east would have the stronger teams in both football and basketball but I think that the attendance would be fairly equal. So, while I don't think that members of the Belt should individually be thinking about bolting, a restructuring would be beneficial to most of the teams in both conferences.

But, the best way for a merger to ever happen is that the Belt continues to get stronger, both in attendance and power rating.

Edited March 24, 2008 by GrayEagleOne

greenminer · March 24, 2008

CUSA - 1 NCAA, 1 NIT, 3 CBI, 2 WNCAA, 1 WNIT = 8

WAC - 1 NCAA, 1 NIT, 1 CBI, 1 WNCAA, 1 WNIT = 5

Sun Belt - 2 NCAA, 0 NIT, 0 CBIT, 1 WNCAA, 1 WNIT = 4

Arkstfan · March 24, 2008

CUSA - 1 NCAA, 1 NIT, 3 CBI, 2 WNCAA, 1 WNIT = 8
WAC - 1 NCAA, 1 NIT, 1 CBI, 1 WNCAA, 1 WNIT = 5
Sun Belt - 2 NCAA, 0 NIT, 0 CBIT, 1 WNCAA, 1 WNIT = 4

Dollars to the conference so far for this year's basketball performances.

CUSA - $570,000

WAC - $190,000

Sun Belt - $760,000

The NIT, CBI, WNCAA, and WNIT are cover expenses at best propositions.

Eagle1855 · March 24, 2008

great points, unfortunately that still wont help our attendance. Tulsa will still be our biggest home game. Our fans still don't care about the teams in the Sun Belt...

But yes, the Sun Belt is improving.

LoveMG · March 24, 2008

great points, unfortunately that still wont help our attendance. Tulsa will still be our biggest home game. Our fans still don't care about the teams in the Sun Belt...
But yes, the Sun Belt is improving.

agree with that. we should take a cusa spot anytime over the sbc. hard to be rivals so far away. regional is better and the sbc although they think they are is not regional.

Arkstfan · March 24, 2008

great points, unfortunately that still wont help our attendance. Tulsa will still be our biggest home game. Our fans still don't care about the teams in the Sun Belt...
But yes, the Sun Belt is improving.

Correction.

Your fans still don't care enough about North Texas to show up for those games.

Texas had no trouble getting 84,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Tennessee had no trouble getting 102,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Alabama sold 92,000 tickets for ULM. Georgia had no problem getting 92,000 for Troy.

If your attendance is merely a function of your opponent you are nothing more the SWC version of Rice or SMU.

Building a fan base takes time and you can draw a better crowd with names, but how many of the people who came to the Baylor or Navy games are likely to return?

Arkstfan · March 24, 2008

agree with that. we should take a cusa spot anytime over the sbc. hard to be rivals so far away. regional is better and the sbc although they think they are is not regional.

Compared to the WAC it is regional.

The improvement of the Sun Belt makes it more possible that the day will come that the Sun Belt and CUSA realign roughly geographically. Neither alignment is ideal.

With the NCAA Tournament that the Big East is having, they aren't likely to break up any time soon. They got a record 8 in, seven advanced past the first day and three made the Sweet 16. That gives the 18 units even if they lose all three Sweet 16 games. That's $3.4 million just from the NCAA for this season for the next six years before you consider the increased television value it should create.

UNTLifer · March 24, 2008

Correction.
Your fans still don't care enough about North Texas to show up for those games.
Texas had no trouble getting 84,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Tennessee had no trouble getting 102,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Alabama sold 92,000 tickets for ULM. Georgia had no problem getting 92,000 for Troy.
If your attendance is merely a function of your opponent you are nothing more the SWC version of Rice or SMU.
Building a fan base takes time and you can draw a better crowd with names, but how many of the people who came to the Baylor or Navy games are likely to return?

Thanks for the lesson in attendance/fanbase building from an Arkansas State fan. Something's wrong with that picture.

Arkstfan · March 24, 2008

Thanks for the lesson in attendance/fanbase building from an Arkansas State fan. Something's wrong with that picture.

Didn't say we've pulled it off but you can't build a program on the backs of others (ie. visitor attendance) because if you do, the folks carrying you will leave you on the side of the road to die.

FirefightnRick · March 24, 2008

I think our fans, students and alumni have supported fairly well in the past even when a Belt team was playing, but there was something to play for, like a conference championship among other things?

Were they there to show spirit? Were they there for the impending championship or the trip to New Orleans? We they there for the girls, the beer, both?

Rick

Edited March 24, 2008 by FirefightnRick

GreenBlooded1 · March 24, 2008

Rick... thanks for showing that picture again. Makes me tear up everytime I see it. Also re-affirms that we CAN draw a decent crowd. Too bad it is true that "everyone loves a winner" When we are winning -- more fans emerge.

hickoryhouse · March 24, 2008

I think our fans, students and alumni have supported fairly well in the past even when a Belt team was playing, but there was something to play for, like a conference championship among other things?
Were they there to show spirit? Were they there for the impending championship or the trip to New Orleans? We they there for the girls, the beer, both?
Rick

Thats me in there helping to holdup the cross bar! That was an amazing night! We do have fans, we do have support, there just has to be something to support, ie a winner!

I will never forget that night, and thanks for the picture Rick, I needed one of those.

Eagle1855 · March 24, 2008

Correction.
Your fans still don't care enough about North Texas to show up for those games.
Texas had no trouble getting 84,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Tennessee had no trouble getting 102,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Alabama sold 92,000 tickets for ULM. Georgia had no problem getting 92,000 for Troy.
If your attendance is merely a function of your opponent you are nothing more the SWC version of Rice or SMU.
Building a fan base takes time and you can draw a better crowd with names, but how many of the people who came to the Baylor or Navy games are likely to return?

What, no mention of OU's attendance? What about USC? Michigan? Ohio State? While we're at it, lets compare our middle-of-the-road mid-major programs to ALL the elite programs.

A better comparison would have been Mississippi State. Or Baylor. Or Ok State. Schools that are never playing for much more than a bowl bid or an upset. Their fans show up to see their program take on a RESPECTABLE opponent. You can't tell me you wouldn't pay more for a ticket to see Arkansas State take on Arkansas in your own backyard than the juggernaut that is ULM.

Your logic is also flawed if you think that we expect to ride visitor attendance to a respectable attendance average- we don't. We'd just like to play teams that matter both in the grand scheme of Div 1A college football and regionally. Nobody wants to come watch their team play teams with losing records every year.

Im guessing you didn't attend the Baylor or the Navy game- or even the Tulsa or SMU games. I wouldn't expect you to, but I did. A lot of UNT fans that never go to games came out the woodwork to see us play a RELEVANT opponent.

And let's not talk about UT. UT used to have attendance problems before they started winning 10 games every season- and were therefore playing for something every year, as FFR alluded. Winning builds interest. IF you don't win any games, you at least want to play some teams that are intriguing. Not doing either almost always results in poor attendance. In fact, I doubt you can think of an example of a team that isnt in a BCS conference that can maintain high levels of attendance without winning.

emmitt01 · March 24, 2008

Im guessing you didn't attend the Baylor or the Navy game- or even the Tulsa or SMU games. I wouldn't expect you to, but I did. A lot of UNT fans that never go to games came out the woodwork to see us play a RELEVANT opponent.

Thank you for proving his point. Until our fanbase comes out to see NORTH TEXAS and not just for "relevant opponents" we will continue to be a midling program at best.

Eagle1855 · March 24, 2008

Thank you for proving his point. Until our fanbase comes out to see NORTH TEXAS and not just for "relevant opponents" we will continue to be a midling program at best.

If you dropped Texas into the Sun Belt today, their attendance would wither and die within 2 seasons.

My point is merely to say that there are several components to having a decent-sized crowd. Playing a relevant opponent is just one of them. Playing for something is another.

Make no mistake, UNT has it's fair share of problems with school pride, but that won't change until it becomes a "destination" rather than a "fall-back plan".

Edited March 24, 2008 by Eagle1855

emmitt01 · March 24, 2008

If you dropped Texas into the Sun Belt today, their attendance would wither and die in 2 years.

Ok, now you're just being silly.

March 24, 2008

Correction.
Your fans still don't care enough about North Texas to show up for those games.
Texas had no trouble getting 84,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Tennessee had no trouble getting 102,000 to show up for Arkansas State. Alabama sold 92,000 tickets for ULM. Georgia had no problem getting 92,000 for Troy.
If your attendance is merely a function of your opponent you are nothing more the SWC version of Rice or SMU.
Building a fan base takes time and you can draw a better crowd with names, but how many of the people who came to the Baylor or Navy games are likely to return?

We're talking about our ability to draw, not someone else's. Yes, Oklahoma and Arkansas had no trouble selling out with us as the opponent but our attendance is largely based on who we play. That is due in part to not being a consistently strong team and our fans are more casual. They know universities and not always the current strength of who we are playing. They had rather attend a game against familiar schools....SMU, TCU, Houston, Rice, UTEP, and Tulsa than Sun Belt opponents. If that makes us a version of Rice and SMU then so be it because that's what we are. So is everyone else that's not consistently a Top 50 team.

Arkansas State is really no different. You have no intrastate rivals because you are the only FBS team in the state other than Arkansas, who refuses to schedule you. Your closest non-conference rival is Memphis. Look at last year. Arkansas State drew almost 28,000 in a home game against Memphis. How many did you draw against North Texas? The answer is 11,736. Your best attendance against a Belt opponent was nearly 10,000 less than what you drew for Memphis.

I do agree with your assesssment of the Big East. Why should they do anything the way the money's rolling in? I don't look for any movement by the Big East anytime soon.

The Sun Belt should continue to improve; at least, I see that there will likely be eight viable teams so there is no danger of losing conference status. However, I don't think that there will be enough Sun Belt teams with good attendence to make a geographical realignment of CUSA and Sun Belt teams although I would truly like to see it.

Spaceraider · March 24, 2008

...The improvement of the Sun Belt makes it more possible that the day will come that the Sun Belt and CUSA realign roughly geographically. Neither alignment is ideal.
With the NCAA Tournament that the Big East is having, they aren't likely to break up any time soon. They got a record 8 in, seven advanced past the first day and three made the Sweet 16. That gives the 18 units even if they lose all three Sweet 16 games. That's $3.4 million just from the NCAA for this season for the next six years before you consider the increased television value it should create.

Recently one of GoMiddle.com's members reported on our football board on a Q&A with MT's AD, Chris Massaro, that happened in his Sports Administration class. Among the many things he discusses was realignment scenarios and the first mentioned was the c-usa/sun belt geographical alignment (....CUSA and Sun Belt reorganize. The Sun Belt would operate in the footprint of the SEC (MT, WKU, Troy, UAB, UCF?, ECU, FAU, FIU, USA, Memphis?, USM?). CUSA (Rice, ULL, ULM, ASU, USM?, Baylor, UNT, Houston)...) and second a BE FB/BB divorce though I agree I think that is less likely now, though who knows how things will look a few years down the road.

greenminer · March 25, 2008

Dollars to the conference so far for this year's basketball performances.
CUSA - $570,000
WAC - $190,000
Sun Belt - $760,000
The NIT, CBI, WNCAA, and WNIT are cover expenses at best propositions.

I thought money might come up. Or an attempt to downplay the other tournaments.

I'm not really picking sides here, but I do think it should be noted that CUSA showed much better depth this year. The Tulsa/Houston/UAB/UTEP rotation really beat themselves to a pulp in and around their arenas and possibly out of NCAA consideration. But they are still quality teams.

I like to think UTEP will return to the dance regularly next year, playing 4 freshman on the floor with a lead on Memphis under 4 minutes to go...in Memphis. Also, 4 fresh on the floor in OT for an eventual loss to Tulsa in conference tourney semis.

The Belt had two in the NCAA regardless of the WKU/USA win, but after that the rest of the league REALLY needs to step up. I hope we're on our way...

CMJ · March 25, 2008

Just as a tangent - Houston made the semifinals of the CBI tonight. I believe they play Tulsa next.

Arkstfan · March 25, 2008

Don't get me wrong. I believe in scheduling attractive opponents but that isn't and can't be a program lifeblood.

Back when ASU was drawing 15,000 with ease in I-AA I looked at I-A attendance and one of the things that leapt out at me was Rice. Their attendance over a several year period averaged within a couple 100 of ASU. The difference was that ASU didn't host Texas, didn't host TAMU, didn't host Arkansas who traditionally was one of Rice's better attended games. We poured it all down the drain.

Anyone remember when CUSA formed? A school that wanted in and couldn't get in was East Carolina. Louisville was adamant at keeping the league at six for football. It took a threat to kick Louisville out to get the deal done. Why were the others willing to boot Louisville to make it happen? Because the Liberty Bowl had told them that if they weren't invited they would reserve the right to take the CUSA champion -OR- ECU. The Pirates had value. They had the second largest average attendance of that group of schools and the largest season ticket base. They sold 17,000 tickets for the 1994 Liberty Bowl game. They've managed to squander a lot of that.

CUSA in basketball. They have three teams rated 250 or worse, the Belt has four. The big difference is at the top. They have four top 100 compared to only two for the Sun Belt. Now I could cheat and compare top 50 where CUSA has 1 and the Sun Belt has two but I've consistently said the two most important numbers are being top 100 and not being 250 or worse.

The Sun Belt has a grand opportunity. Football is coming off its best year ever and doesn't lose a ton of talent. Basketball made strides but it is up to each campus to build it better. ASU took a step in that direction after being dazzled by a mediocre coach who had little on his resume other than having won the conference tournament once. Half the schools played lousy non-conference slates.

The thinking has been backwards.

In football where strength of schedule doesn't mean anything we tend to play hard non-conference slates, even though the system is geared more toward wins than the quality of those wins. In basketball where strength of schedule is huge we tend to play weak schedules even though as USA and WKU have shown a solid schedule opens the door to success.