Was Mean Joe Greene Highly Recruited Or Not?

eulessismore · February 9, 2008

After reading the "Todd Dodge failure as recruiter" thread and being disgusted by it, noticed most of the other threads seem to spring from this dead period for football news, so just thought I'd ask the question about the history of our recruiting our most famous athlete, if not alumni. Any other real info about Joe Greene and his North Texas experience and what was really expected of him, was it really a "risky" move, would be welcome. Here's a link which suggests he was not that highly recruited:

Mean Joe Greene in his own words

MeanGreen61 · February 9, 2008

Remember it was over forty years ago and a totally different era with fewer opportunities even being available. Understand his high school team couldn't use the locker room of their home field. Today, he would have been on nearly everyone's radar.

Edited February 9, 2008 by MeanGreen61

eulessismore · February 9, 2008

It was a totally different era. Fewer opportunities were even available. Understand his high school team couldn't even use the locker room of their home field. Today, he would have been on nearly everyone radar.

I just wondered if there were anyone who knew whether his being recruited was praised or criticized. According to that link, he only weighed 240 when he graduated from high school. If there really were few offers, was it due to segregation or that he really wasn't highly regarded as a player. After all, black players were being recruited by the big northern programs, weren't they?

GrandGreen · February 9, 2008

I just wondered if there were anyone who knew whether his being recruited was praised or criticized. According to that link, he only weighed 240 when he graduated from high school. If there really were few offers, was it due to segregation or that he really wasn't highly regarded as a player. After all, black players were being recruited by the big northern programs, weren't they?

Very few black players from the South were recruited by integrated programs, even the teams that played black players were not recruiting great numbers. 240 lbs in that day and age was considered great size. Not sure what a recruiting comparison with over four decades ago serves. It is obvious that NT got all those great black players because they had negligible recruiting competition in Texas and surrounding states.

untgeorge · February 10, 2008

My recollection - such as it is, maybe not the gospel - is that he was recruited by MichSt and maybe another Big10 school. Don't know if "recruited by" meant "scholarship offers".

Understand that at about that time, half of the all-Big10 defensive team was from Texas.

ADLER · February 10, 2008

Hall-of-Famer "Mean Joe" Greene had a stellar playing career at North Texas before a 13-year career with the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Prejudice failed to beat 'Mean' Joe Greene

Football fans know "Mean Joe" Greene for his Hall of Fame career with the Pittsburgh Steelers. During his career he won four Super Bowls and earned 10 Pro Bowl selections. It all started for Greene at the University of North Texas, where he became one of the best defenders in Texas college football history.

Greene was born in Elgin in 1946 but grew up in Temple. He towered over his high school teammates and opponents alike at 6 feet 3 inches tall with 225 pounds of muscle. He should've been a force on the Dunbar High School football team, but Greene, who would later become known for his uncommon aggression in the pros, was afraid.

"When I started playing, I was very timid," Greene said. "I used to get beat up quite a bit, on and off the field. But something happens when you're out there on the field: You want to win. You're oblivious to everything else. Eventually, my desire to win overcame my fear."

Soon he was the one handing out the beatings, but Greene's desire to excel also had to overcome the humiliation of segregation. Dunbar shared the football stadium with the local white school, but Greene and the rest of his teammates weren't allowed to use the locker rooms. They dressed in the gym and spent halftime in the end zone. For his entire high school career, Greene only dressed in a locker room once: When Dunbar traveled to Corpus Christi.

Eventually, word spread about the big kid from Temple. Unfortunately, Greene had little hope of joining the Southwest Conference, of which UT and Texas A&M University were members. When Greene was looking at colleges in 1964, the conference members still refused to integrate. It would take two years before black athletes could compete at the varsity level in the conference at Baylor and Southern Methodist universities. It wasn't until 1970 that a black student lettered at Texas.

North Texas was far ahead of its time in accepting black athletes. Its football squad became the first integrated athletic team in the state in 1956, when heralded running back Abner Haynes joined. Eight years later, Joe Greene saw a picture of Haynes in North Texas' college catalog, and he had a good idea of where he wanted to go to school. He wrote a letter to the North Texas coaching staff and scheduled a visit. As he headed toward the coaches' room, he stopped and ducked into a restroom.

"I just started doing push-ups on the restroom floor," Greene said with a laugh. "I don't know what came over me, but I did them for about five minutes."

By this time, Greene was a burly 235 pounds and was wearing a sweatshirt with the sleeves cut off to show off his arms. When he was done with his exercise, he strode into the coaches room, flexed his muscles and gave the assembled staff a start.

"I remember they all stood up and said, 'You've got a scholarship!'" Greene said.

Because of NCAA rules at the time, Greene wasn't allowed to play his freshman season. With him on the bench, the North Texas defense was humiliated by Texas - El Paso 61-15, allowing 665 yards of total offense.

But the next year, Greene started against UTEP, and the North Texas defense held the Miners to -44 yards rushing and won. That game was the start of North Texas' era of dominant defense, during which they earned the moniker "The Mean Green." The name stuck to the flagship player on the team, Joe Greene, who was quickly establishing a ferocious reputation.

"He was mean when he put on the helmet," said teammate and close friend Chuck Beatty. "He had a whole different intensity. But everybody who played on that defense was mean!"

With Greene, the 1966 North Texas "Mean Green" defense was the best running defense in NCAA history. Opponents only averaged 1.6 yards per carry against them, a collegiate record that will possibly never be broken. Greene grew to 6 feet 4 inches and 270 pounds, and he only got better. In 1968, he was selected as a consensus First-Team All-American. He was drafted fourth overall in the 1969 NFL Draft by the Steelers, and the rest is football history.

Though he suffered prejudice, Greene preferred to focus on the opportunities he did have.

"I can't recall any particular tackles or plays from North Texas," Greene said, "But it's the experience and the love for the university. That's what has lasted."

Edited February 10, 2008 by ADLER

DallasGreen · February 10, 2008

Hall-of-Famer "Mean Joe" Greene had a stellar playing career at North Texas before a 13-year career with the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Prejudice failed to beat 'Mean' Joe Greene
Football fans know "Mean Joe" Greene for his Hall of Fame career with the Pittsburgh Steelers. During his career he won four Super Bowls and earned 10 Pro Bowl selections. It all started for Greene at the University of North Texas, where he became one of the best defenders in Texas college football history.
Greene was born in Elgin in 1946 but grew up in Temple. He towered over his high school teammates and opponents alike at 6 feet 3 inches tall with 225 pounds of muscle. He should've been a force on the Dunbar High School football team, but Greene, who would later become known for his uncommon aggression in the pros, was afraid.
"When I started playing, I was very timid," Greene said. "I used to get beat up quite a bit, on and off the field. But something happens when you're out there on the field: You want to win. You're oblivious to everything else. Eventually, my desire to win overcame my fear."
Soon he was the one handing out the beatings, but Greene's desire to excel also had to overcome the humiliation of segregation. Dunbar shared the football stadium with the local white school, but Greene and the rest of his teammates weren't allowed to use the locker rooms. They dressed in the gym and spent halftime in the end zone. For his entire high school career, Greene only dressed in a locker room once: When Dunbar traveled to Corpus Christi.
Eventually, word spread about the big kid from Temple. Unfortunately, Greene had little hope of joining the Southwest Conference, of which UT and Texas A&M University were members. When Greene was looking at colleges in 1964, the conference members still refused to integrate. It would take two years before black athletes could compete at the varsity level in the conference at Baylor and Southern Methodist universities. It wasn't until 1970 that a black student lettered at Texas.
North Texas was far ahead of its time in accepting black athletes. Its football squad became the first integrated athletic team in the state in 1956, when heralded running back Abner Haynes joined. Eight years later, Joe Greene saw a picture of Haynes in North Texas' college catalog, and he had a good idea of where he wanted to go to school. He wrote a letter to the North Texas coaching staff and scheduled a visit. As he headed toward the coaches' room, he stopped and ducked into a restroom.
"I just started doing push-ups on the restroom floor," Greene said with a laugh. "I don't know what came over me, but I did them for about five minutes."
By this time, Greene was a burly 235 pounds and was wearing a sweatshirt with the sleeves cut off to show off his arms. When he was done with his exercise, he strode into the coaches room, flexed his muscles and gave the assembled staff a start.
"I remember they all stood up and said, 'You've got a scholarship!'" Greene said.
Because of NCAA rules at the time, Greene wasn't allowed to play his freshman season. With him on the bench, the North Texas defense was humiliated by Texas - El Paso 61-15, allowing 665 yards of total offense.
But the next year, Greene started against UTEP, and the North Texas defense held the Miners to -44 yards rushing and won. That game was the start of North Texas' era of dominant defense, during which they earned the moniker "The Mean Green." The name stuck to the flagship player on the team, Joe Greene, who was quickly establishing a ferocious reputation.
"He was mean when he put on the helmet," said teammate and close friend Chuck Beatty. "He had a whole different intensity. But everybody who played on that defense was mean!"
With Greene, the 1966 North Texas "Mean Green" defense was the best running defense in NCAA history. Opponents only averaged 1.6 yards per carry against them, a collegiate record that will possibly never be broken. Greene grew to 6 feet 4 inches and 270 pounds, and he only got better. In 1968, he was selected as a consensus First-Team All-American. He was drafted fourth overall in the 1969 NFL Draft by the Steelers, and the rest is football history.
Though he suffered prejudice, Greene preferred to focus on the opportunities he did have.
"I can't recall any particular tackles or plays from North Texas," Greene said, "But it's the experience and the love for the university. That's what has lasted."

There were many stars in the Joe Greene era at NT--- Steve Ramsey, Ron Shanklin, Willie Parker, Cedric Hardeman, Chuck Beatty, as well as Joe all made their mark in the pros as well. It was by no means a one man show. Don Meredith On MNF after seeing Shanklin, Greene , and Beatty all make plays for a stellar Pittsburgh Steelers team remarked " I'm certainly glad that when I was at SMU that we never had to play North Texas State"

risinggreen · February 10, 2008

I just wondered if there were anyone who knew whether his being recruited was praised or criticized. According to that link, he only weighed 240 when he graduated from high school. If there really were few offers, was it due to segregation or that he really wasn't highly regarded as a player. After all, black players were being recruited by the big northern programs, weren't they?

As you can see from the attached link, UT didn't even have a 240 pounder on their roster back in '64. Linemen below 200 lbs. were very common back in the 60's, and a lot of those roster numbers were inflated. Mean Joe was huge for the day.

http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/ind...hange_well_id=2

SilverEagle · February 11, 2008

"He was mean when he put on the helmet," said teammate and close friend Chuck Beatty. "He had a whole different intensity. But everybody who played on that defense was mean!"
With Greene, the 1966 North Texas "Mean Green" defense was the best running defense in NCAA history. Opponents only averaged 1.6 yards per carry against them, a collegiate record that will possibly never be broken.

THIS is what inspired Sydney Graham to start calling the defense "the Mean Green".....and the rest is history.

ADLER · February 11, 2008

There were many stars in the Joe Greene era at NT--- Steve Ramsey, Ron Shanklin, Willie Parker, Cedric Hardeman, Chuck Beatty, as well as Joe all made their mark in the pros as well. It was by no means a one man show. Don Meredith On MNF after seeing Shanklin, Greene , and Beatty all make plays for a stellar Pittsburgh Steelers team remarked " I'm certainly glad that when I was at SMU that we never had to play North Texas State"

Cedric Hardeman was originally signed as a defensive back, bulked up, and then layed defensive end for the Mean Green.

Cedric holds the UNT record for most sacks in a single game after slamming the Tulsa quarterback 14 times.

Cedric Hardeman had a long and distinguished carreer with the San Francisco 49ers and retired as their all time sack leader.

SilverEagle · February 11, 2008

Cedric Hardeman was originally signed as a defensive back, bulked up, and then layed defensive end for the Mean Green.
Cedric holds the UNT record for most sacks in a single game after slamming the Tulsa quarterback 14 times.
Cedric Hardeman had a long and distinguished carreer with the San Francisco 49ers and retired as their all time sack leader.

He retired after playing for the Oakland Raiders for a few years. They extended his career by using him as a "passing down only" player. Kind of like Charles Haley with the Cowboys.

I believe that he was one of the first to be used that way.

MeanGreen61 · February 11, 2008

Cedric Hardeman had a long and distinguished carreer with the San Francisco 49ers and retired as their all time sack leader.

Hardman was a first round draft pick of the 49er's and six time Pro Bowl pick for both the 49er's and Raiders. Blue Gray Senior Bowl MVP in '69 and elected to the Blue Grey Hall of Fame in '96. Played on the Raiders '81 Super Bowl championship team & was the first two-time winner of the 49'ers Len Exhmont Award.

Buford_Julep · February 11, 2008

My memory (probably wrong) is that Joe Greene came to NTSU on a track scholarship as a shot putter and Cedric Hardeman was a walk-on.

Cr1028 · February 11, 2008

I don't know why but it just feels strange that I have been in those seats behind him recently to watch a game. That picture is 40 years old. Wow. Fouts sure hasn't changed much.

MeanGreen61 · February 11, 2008

My memory (probably wrong) is that Joe Greene came to NTSU on a track scholarship as a shot putter and Cedric Hardeman was a walk-on.

Didn't Hardman have a track scholarship & initially walk-on as a 175 lb or so DB for football?

NTPhiKap99 · February 11, 2008

I don't know why but it just feels strange that I have been in those seats behind him recently to watch a game. That picture is 40 years old. Wow. Fouts sure hasn't changed much.

That's insulting. They've changed the turf and added lights in the past 40 years. And don't forget waterless urinals(not pictured).

February 11, 2008

That's a great story on Joe Greene.

Recruiting was much different in that era. There were no recruiting services and coaches did not visit players. Most of the leads were from coaches, alumni, and newspapers. Usually, the recruit come to the university and talked to the head coach or possibly worked out for the staff. Some scholarships were given on the spot (or offered) but many were invited back for tryouts. Odus Mitchell usually awarded about half of the available scholarships but the other half had to be earned at tryouts.

Joe Greene, through his own initiative, came to North Texas without a scholarship but was awarded one on his first visit. To the best of my knowledge, Joe didn't compete in track at North Texas although he would've obviously been a fine shot putter if he could've mastered the techniquie. I think that maybe Ray Renfro may have come to North Texas on a track scholarship because he was only a few tenths of a second off of the world record in high school. He did compete for North Texas in the sprints.

As has been pointed out, two other reasons that Joe wasn't widely recruited was the black schools were limited to Prairie View, Texas Southern, or one of the lesser known schools and North Texas if they wanted to remain in state. The black schools had some good athletes but didn't get a lot of publicity so they had to find their own places to play. Abner Haynes came to North Texas, North Texas did not go to Abner. It was just a different era.