UNT Arts Students going to TWU

[CAV]

UNT Art Students Going to TWU

The writing is on the wall!

[Reb UT '70]

Since both schools are coed, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me to have to state universities in Denton. What would a merger do for UNT?

[Stan R]

Boy, we've gone down this path many times. A merger makes sense but the TWU alums and administration want nothing to do with it. You are correct, though, there is no reason for a TWU in denton. IT'S FREAKING CO-ED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Sorry, but this situation is ridiculous. It's almost like at some point, it will have change its name and then what???? Will they compete with UNT??? Give me a break - merge the two and then Denton residents would have no excuse not to support the ONLY university in denton.

GMG!

[CMJ]

I seriously doubt a merger will happen anytime soon. As was stated Alumni, administration, and even alot of staff are against it. It MIGHT happen eventually, but not in the next 20 years.

[SilverEagle]

Reb, to present a calmer response to your question. It was pointed out many years ago that the "rationale" for an all-female state-supported school has become outdated. That issue was dealt with loooong ago with A&M. TWU alums are very passonate about their school, and would strongly resist merging it with North Texas. My wife is a TWU alum, and she has been very passonate about her school for years. She became less so in recent years when it became known to her several years ago that one of the editors of the school newspaper was a male.

It's a pretty touchy issue with TWU alums, especially since there has been some less than kind comments exchanged between the students of UNT and TWU through the years. I admire the "passion" and "devotion" that TWU graduates have for their Alma Mater. A quality that I wished more UNT alums had.

As you know, the bottom line on that issue is how much political clout the TWU alums continue to have in the legislature.

[Stan R]

What is TWU's present enrollment?

[Reb UT '70]

I feel so much better now that I'm no longer bald!

I attend a small Methodist church that is right across the street from a big Methodist church. In the Methodist system the facilities belong to the denomination and not to the local congregation. Our church was a Swedish church until 1948, and since that change every Bishop and expert has pointed out how silly it is to have two churches across the street from each other.

The devil will die of frostbite before the "Americans" ever take over my church!

I know how the TWU alumni feel, however our church doesn't get tax dollars, and while the name should never be changed the two schools can be merged to eliminate duplication. The same thing is done in many universities where 'brother/sister" no coed schools merged but kept the old names.

[3XNTGRAD]

I believe TWU enrollment is at around 8500 (I don't know if that is Denton only, or also includes their Dallas and Houston allied health programs).

[CMJ]

I'm pretty sure that is just the Denton enrollment.

[Ibleedgreen]

Course-sharing between UNT and TWU is nothing new. There are several graduate "federation" programs in which UNT and TWU grad students take the same courses...some at UNT and some at TWU. As a UNT special education grad student, I had two TWU courses on my degree plan. It only makes sense that there will be more of this sort of thing in the days to come. Remember, also, that only a few months back there was a proposal before the legislature to put UNT, TWU, UTA and UT Southwestern Medical School in the UNT system with UNT Dallas and the UNTHSC. Change is coming.

[Reb UT '70]

I'll bet there was a lot of fighting about that, what did UT think about it? I like it because I'd like to see the UT system concentrate on Austin, but I don't think that'll every happen. I have a friend who was long time professor at what is now A&M Kingsville, he told me that's they'd been promised the moon when they became part of the A&M system, but it didn't change a thing.

[NT80]

It makes no sense for the state to financially support two competing state universities in the same town. I think you'll see, as funding becomes tighter, that duplication of university departments 3 miles across town are a waste.

I understand no TWU alum wants to lose it's school's identity, but the reality is that a "women's" university is outdated and the faculty and facilities could become part of something so much greater than it is now.

A merger would no-doubt create the third flagship university in the state. The combined campuses could easily hold 50,000 students and re-assigned buildings could bring specialization that does not currently exist.

[Ibleedgreen]

I never heard what the folks in Austin thought, but the folks at UT Arlington were incensed.

[CMJ]

It makes sense to merge, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[UNTX]

There has actually been a plan at UNT that was initially drawn up in 1986, that details how a merger with TWU would be handled. That plan has been dusted off in recent years as a merger is more of a likelihood now.

The plan calls for almost all undergraduates to be at the UNT campus, while the admin. and graduate school is housed over at the TWU campus. Allied health programs would remain over at TWU, since tailor made facilities already exist on that side of town for those programs. Additionally, those programs would in part be incorporated with our HSC and students would be able to intern at the HSC in Fort Worth (to the extent that it's practical).

Initially, TWU would be merged into UNT and be called "The Women's College." Eventually that designation would go by the way side.

Currently there isn't enough unrest about the subject to make a merger a reality in the short-term. A class action lawsuit by male students protesting TWU's name might further things along, but that probably wouldn't happen. One factor in our favor though, that has drawn the eye of the Coordinating Board and some in the Legislature is that as of 2000 UNT's square footage utilization was as 125%. TWU on the other hand is at a shockingly low 68%. That's empty space in buildings over there not being used. UNT really NEEDS that space, and the state knows it. Also, TWU's enrollment is down from it's all time high of nearly 11,000 in the mid to late 90's. As you know, enrollment at UNT is skyrocketing.

One more thing and I'll stop boring the hell out of you (assuming anyone is reading this): TWU has been talking to A&M about absorbing them. A&M wants them, and they do share a history. When I was still working with the VP of Finance and Business Affairs at UNT I asked him what he thought about that. His response was that "UNT will without question stand in the way of that ever happening." He stated it rather dramitically as well.

We'll see.

[bandgeek]

It would be great to absorb them (need to think of a better word than "absorb" for the TWU alums) though. It would make adding a make adding the new College of Engineering alot easier. And the athletics complexes would be great for the Eagles volleyball and TWU (then UNT) softball team. Not to mention much needed dorm space!

[SilverEagle]

"TWU has been talking to A&M about absorbing them. A&M wants them, and they do share a history. "

As I mentioned earlier, my wife is a TWU graduate. The only history between TWU and A&M that she shared with me was the tradition of selecting the A&M homecoming queen from TWU. That stopped after A&M went co-ed. Other than their traditions of having a male-only and female-only student body (which no longer exsist), I am not aware of any other "history" between them.

I don't know it for sure, but I got the feeling that TWU felt rather spurned when A&M stopped selecting the homecoming queen from TWU.

I don't know of any benefit to TWU in merging with A&M. In either case (merging with A&M or merging with UNT) they would eventually lose their name identity. They would lose it much faster with A&M. Just like ETSU, WTSU, and Texas A&I did. North Texas might be more flexible on that issue.

[Stan R]

WOW! Thanks for that detailed info UNTX. You seem to have some pretty good sources. I never realized that there was some much history and goings on to this issue. If Texas A&M tried to absorb that, there would be serious outrage and I don't think that will happen.

GMG!

[Ibleedgreen]

A&M doesn't have a Homecoming. Bonfire was traditionally held before the UT game, but not as a part of homecoming festivities.

[UNTX]

To Silver Eagle:

Actually, there is more to the history between A&M and TWU than just the homecoming queen thing you mentioned. TWU was once part of A&M . In fact, TWU was A&M's "better half." It was the women's campus of Texas A&M University. At one point in time it was known as something like The Texas Industrial School for Girls. Although I don't know specific dates and a lot of detail on that history, I'm pretty sure that it should be pretty easily verified. But TWU was A&M's women's campus way back when A&M was an all male institution.

Anyway, they have been in talks with the Aggies about becoming part of the A&M System once again. There's no question about that. UNT will do their best to make sure that doesn't happen.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I have never heard that TWU was actually part of the A&M System since there was really no multi school A&M System (as we know it today) back in that era but hell, I learn something new from this board every day--guess that is why I enjoy reading most every post on this board.

I do know that before A&M went co-ed (what year?) that they had a special what I always heard was an unofficial male college/female college relationship since those 2 were the only such Texas schools with one gender enrollments and that (alone) being the the basis of their relationship.

I thought that in the mid 1980's when Larry Powell (?) led the Texas Select Committee on Higher Education was the most serious discussions I'd ever seen in this state with serious discussions of merging other Texas public universities besides TWU and UNT. They also kicked around the idea of merging Texas Southern U in Houston with the University of Houston.

All these talks in the mid 1980's were shot down by all the schools who would lose their identities (like TWU) and I really didn't think any of us in our lifetimes would ever see such a move on this matter again. I have always thought the merger would be a good and economical idea for the Texas taxpayers, though; plus, I am one that feels 2 universities in Denton has never been a good idea for either school as it divides the loyalties of a town that is divided enough in so many other areas with its local politics, IMO.

I think TWU and UNT's only relatioinship is what it has become now and that is TWU taking UNT's overflow students such as the reports on this board.

[SilverEagle]

I re-visited this issue with my wife (a TWU Graduate). She said that TWU referred to A&M as "our brother school", and they were encouraged to fraternize with A&M students, both that was just about it. She said that as far as she knew they were never part of the A&M system, they just shared a common tradition of gender-specific enrollment. TWU's school colors are also the same as A&M's.

I would think that if the numbers mentioned earlier about North Texas being 125% booked on class-room space and TWU being 68% are accurate, it wouldn't take much of a push to merge these schools. Besides, I anticipate that this is going to be a very tight legislative session coming up, and merging TWU and UNT would be the perfect solution to funding the continued North Texas growth.

[SAGreenFan]

Unfortunately with A&M's clout within the state, that 125% may be conveniantly over looked. The legislature may just think "Make it an A&M school, enrollment there will increase". It happened at Corpus Christi State when it became A&M-Corpus Christi. Enrollment was down at crucical levels, and then when it joined the A&M system it doubled, and continued to grow larger to the point where houseing was a question... I should know I got stuck living off campus. 600 freshman out of the 1000 enrolling were left with out a place to live, and only found out about a month before the semester started... of course that has little to do with anything this baord is talking about at the moment. Another problem. If A&M is looking into TWU, UNT may stand in the way, but A&M will probably do all they can to get it, if they do indeed want it bad enough, they dont have representation in North Texas like they do in South Texas, do they? UT has 2 schools within the Metroplex, and A&M's new president is expected to increase the growth of the A&M system. Unfortunately I cant get a straight forward opinion from anyone in my family because theyre torn between their long standing loyalty with the Aggies (and everyone knows how strong those loyalties can be), and their new connection with UNT (ie. me). All in all it comes to this, The legislature is going to do what saves it the most money. Whats best for the schools may be looked at, but the dollar will probably be the deciding factor. <_

[Green Jackal]

I personally think UT and SWTS should merge since they are so close together. The new school could be called University of South West Texas or Texas State. They could change the team mascot to the "Long Cat" or the "Bob Horns".