Football Stadium

January 12, 2008

Education is expense. We all understand that. If you want to talk about student loan repayment I will curl your eyelashes. No matter how you slice it...the quality of the education in part is perception. There is no way law school at Harvard and law school at Texas Tech is any different but Harvard will open more doors simply because of perception (if you subtract the "good ol boy" factor from each). The perception of education at UT, TAMU and TT is different that education at NT simply because of football. There are more endowments at Big 12 schools than at NT partially because of football. Ask a person in any of the other 49 states to name the major schools in Texas and I will bet they name the Big 12 schools first. Is the education at NT better than most or all schools in Texas...you damn right it is, at least in some areas but athletics plays a huge part in the perception of quality. Every student that has ever attended NT would benifit from a strong athletic program whether they have ever been to a game or not.

Listen, I have definately had my share of green kool-aid. But please do not fool yourself that there is not a difference between the quality of education at UNT and UT or A&M. It is better and it has nothing to do with football. National recognition is certainly boosted by athletics. I do not argue that. But there is a difference in the education one receives at Tech and Harvard. Oustanding academic institutions have outstading reputations for a reason.

Now if you want to say that there is no difference between Tech and UNT, I will accept that. They get more national recognition because of football, but there is probably little quality of education difference.

UNT Cost of Enrollment for 15 hours (with a stadium fee)
$3246.10
A drop in the bucket. We're talking about less than 2%

I think Peacock was trying to show two things. Tution has already increased threefold in just 10 years. And it will continue to rise each year without adding fees.

And second, it isn't your bucket.

Edited January 12, 2008 by 97and03

Daddy Dumpsalot · January 12, 2008

I too was like that once. Now that I know where every red cent goes, I have a new appreciation for many of the services that I am paying for on campus. The truth is though, that a $100 fee increase per semester would be noticed. Do you know how hard it is to get students on board with just a $5 per semester fee increase? You are talking about one hell of a informational campaign aimed at students to get them to realize why they should pay $100 per semester for something that they might only see for a year before they graduate. The reality is once they graduate, most won't be back, so they don't care.
I'm all on board for a student fee to help pay for this bad boy, and I know of alot of students who are right there with me, but I also know alot of students who would fight an increase to pay for a new stadium wholeheartedly. I'd gladly throw up $100 per semester to see this stadium get built, but I fear student's like Matt and I are not the majority.

BOOO...GO to another school then.

Problem:

UNT=Liberal=Hippy=unathletic=no interest in sports or life=no money or passion for anything=first to complain when charged $1 for anything they dont like.

Solution:

Rid the school of the unathletic liberal hippies.

UNTflyer · January 12, 2008

And second, it isn't your bucket.

I am a senior, and I will be going to grad school this coming fall. I am not proposing anything I am unwilling to endure myself.

$50 a semester is nothing. It's cheaper than almost any text book. Any student who gripes about it is more than welcome to go down the road to North Central Texas College.

Edited January 12, 2008 by UNTflyer

good_ken · January 12, 2008

While I support and understand the necessity of securing student service fees in order to build the new stadium and grow the athletic department, bear in mind the following...
UNT Cost of Enrollment for 15 hours (1997-1998)
$1053.10
UNT Cost of Enrollment for 15 hours (2007-2008)
$3196.10

The college cost of education has outpaced inflation for the last several years. This is based on the rising costs to operate the institutions, and the fact that the state of Texas has contributed less (pennies on the education dollar) to the universities each year.

That is why some analysts say that the cost to send my newborn to a public school (in 18 years) will costs about $100k - $150k.

UNTflyer · January 12, 2008

That is why some analysts say that the cost to send my newborn to a public school (in 18 years) will costs about $100k - $150k.

Yeah, those experts have been predicted the same Doom and Misery for 50 years. Somehow, the American people seem to overcome these dire predictions.

Cr1028 · January 12, 2008

But please do not fool yourself that there is not a difference between the quality of education at UNT and UT or A&M. It is better and it has nothing to do with football.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. The majority of the reasoning for the notion that UT has a higher quality education is that they have higher enrollment standards. More students want to go there(partly due to name recognition<see football>) so they get a higher quality student. If we are going strictly on the quality of education basis, I would argue that UNT would give a higher quality undergraduate education than UT mainly because of the smaller classes and access to professors. At UNT, you are taught by PhD professors who have experience in research in their respective fields. At UT, you are taught by graduate students who are primarliy concerned with their own education and will view yours as secondary. At UNT, you are taught by a professor in the form of lecture. At UT, you are taught by reading a textbook.

I will not go out and say that UNT has better graduate programs than UT. I will say that UNT has at least as good, if not better. undergraduate programs as UT.

If UNT receives more name recognition due to athletic success, higher quality students will enroll and every one of our degrees will become more valuable.

Also, here is the abstract from an article in the Dec. 2006 issue of Social Science Quarterly:

This article examines the extent to which the public connects athletic success with academic quality, whether these connections are stronger during a year in which a state university wins a national championship, the type of respondents most likely to make such connections, and whether these connections make a difference in terms of public evaluations and support for higher education. Embedded within the 2004 survey instrument, we also consider whether respondents primed with specific question wording identifying the national championship are more likely to make the connection than respondents given more generic language referring to success in college athletics. Data for the study are based on two statewide, randomly selected samples of Louisiana voting-age residents, with the first survey conducted in February 2004 in the wake of LSU's BCS National Championship and the second survey conducted in January 2005 in the wake of a 9-3 season. We find that a substantial proportion of the population believes that athletic success and academic quality are connected, that less-educated respondents are more likely to make such connections, and that these connections affect evaluations of colleges and universities. Athletic success may or may not directly affect academic quality, but the public largely believes such a link exists and those beliefs have important implications for higher education.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Cr1028

Peacock · January 12, 2008

Cost of Enrollment for 15 hours (2007) at Texas A &M - $5,000
UNT is still cheap.

Sir, UNT is not cheap.... It is a GREAT value!!!

Cr1028 · January 12, 2008

From the article:

NO LONGER LITTLE ORPHAN COWBOYS - PICKENS HAS DONATION WELL OVER $200 MILLION TO OKLAHOMA STATE'S ATHLETIC DEPARTMENT

Savannah Morning News (GA) - August 31, 2007

Pickens' high-profile donations to the athletic department have not been by accident. Big gifts lead to success in athletics, which buys attention for the university.
"That's where I wanted to put my money and that's the quickest way to build a program," Pickens said. "Sports is where you get the publicity. If you do well in sports, then the rest of it follows."

.

An abstract from the article:

Touchdowns and Test Scores: Exploring the Relationship between Athletics and Academics

Applied Economics Letters, June 2004, v. 11, iss. 7, pp. 421-24

This article examines the relationship between college football success and SAT scores using an updated data series on football winning percentages. The finding here of a positive and significant relationship supports the idea that collegiate athletics, namely football, serves the institution's admissions process. Selective institutions are able to enhance the quality of their student populations. The spinoff benefit of winning teams is such a well-known phenomenon among university administrators that they even have a name for it--"the Flutie factor," for the 33 percent increase in applications that Doug Flutie helped bring Boston College when he was a football star there in the early 1980s.

An abstract from the article:

A Reexamination of the Effect of Big-Time Football and Basketball Success on Graduation Rates and Alumni Giving Rates

Economics of Education Review, Special Issue December 2004, v. 23, iss. 6, pp. 655-61

To determine the impact on the academic mission, the models in this study test whether there is statistical evidence that student graduation rates or alumni giving rates are influenced by pigskin or hoop success for major universities after adjustment for key academic variables. Using a sample of big-time sports universities and models comparable to other research, the evidence presented in this article indicates that having a highly successful football team has a positive impact on both the overall graduation rate and the alumni giving rate. In contrast, a successful basketball team has no significant effect on either of these key measures of academic success

Edited January 12, 2008 by Cr1028

DallasGreen · January 12, 2008

I'm a student and I even agree...but then again I would vote yes for the student fee. Truth is, a $50 or $100 fee per semester, most people would probably not even notice. There are so many fees I pay that I have no idea where the money goes to.
This stadium is something that needs to happen, and if the BOR has the power to impose the fee, I sure hope they do it. The people that would vote no can be happy later when the value of a North Texas degree goes up, because unfortunately most people judge the quality of an institution by their athletic program.

Best and truest quote ever seen from a student on this board. Kudos to you sir!!

DallasGreen · January 12, 2008

Wow, you are agressive with the returns from the student fees. I would suggest they could/will budget the student fees much like a typical ROI. I can't recall an ROI being so agressive that it is realized in one year. Maybe 5-15 years depending on who's math you use. Don't forget summer semesters. 3.4M/year for 16 years is 54.4M if you don't use any of the gate, bowl appearances or hotdog money to augment the costs. 16 years could turn in to 5 to 6 when you consider donations. Man, I'm even convincing myself....

Consider that you can sell stadium bonds now and use student fee and donations to retire these over a multiyear period as well as get state funding for say a kineseology dept. or sports medicine within the stadium and it can be done tommorrow. You just need the combination of stadium bonds, student fee increase, state funding for educational facilities in the stadium, and donations. It's not rocket science--bonds will still be outstanding on Texas Stadium long after it's torn down. We just need admins with the guts to implement all these initiatives and dirt can turn NOW not waiting 15 years for naming rights or the infamous big time donor on the white horse to ride to our rescue.

MCMLXXX · January 12, 2008

Athletic Dept. associate for athletic development TJ Leon leaving. Hopefully we can get a good replacement .

http://meangreen.beloblog.com/

greenminer · January 12, 2008

I too was like that once. Now that I know where every red cent goes, I have a new appreciation for many of the services that I am paying for on campus. The truth is though, that a $100 fee increase per semester would be noticed. Do you know how hard it is to get students on board with just a $5 per semester fee increase? You are talking about one hell of a informational campaign aimed at students to get them to realize why they should pay $100 per semester for something that they might only see for a year before they graduate. The reality is once they graduate, most won't be back, so they don't care.
I'm all on board for a student fee to help pay for this bad boy, and I know of alot of students who are right there with me, but I also know alot of students who would fight an increase to pay for a new stadium wholeheartedly. I'd gladly throw up $100 per semester to see this stadium get built, but I fear student's like Matt and I are not the majority.

Unfortunately, you're right.

Asking the students is the problem. Asking them if they want to do any increase is going to get a NO. The whole process is set up to fail because you're asking permission to take their money. Maybe it happened, but I don't recall any fee/tuition increase that was approved by the student body during my lifetime.

The stupid irony is that fees and/or tuition get raised without question every year. The students don't complain, they just figure out how to pay for it all. We all learn to see where every red cent goes, and realize that some of those fees we'll never take advantage of. It sucked, but I dealt with it. Students deal with it.

Put the 50-100 dollar fee in there. Some students will complain but - for the most part - the kids will just figure out how to pay for it like any typical tuition increase. They can all eat it when, 5 years from now, they're all marveling at a brand new, state-of-the-art 50+ million dollar facility. Heck, they might even go to a game to see a team win on the field?

DeepGreen · January 12, 2008

Sir, UNT is not cheap.... It is a GREAT value!!!

Yes, UNT is a great value.

UNTflyer · January 12, 2008

The stupid irony is that fees and/or tuition get raised without question every year. The students don't complain, they just figure out how to pay for it all.

Well, they complain but they do indeed figure out a way to pay it. If they don't like it, thay have alternatives in DFW.

Per semester average tuition costs compared to UNT:

UT-D ($900 more)

UT-A ($400 more)

TCU ($9,000 more)

SMU ($10,000 more)

Daddy Dumpsalot · January 12, 2008

Sir, UNT is not cheap.... It is a GREAT value!!!

Sorry, UNT is cheap. Cheap in its cost and cheap on what it spends on athletics.

AnotherEagleFan · January 12, 2008

The college cost of education has outpaced inflation for the last several years. This is based on the rising costs to operate the institutions, and the fact that the state of Texas has contributed less (pennies on the education dollar) to the universities each year.
That is why some analysts say that the cost to send my newborn to a public school (in 18 years) will costs about $100k - $150k.

Yes and a bottle of Dr. Pepper will cost $20... but we will be drinking 25.2 oz by then. Just kidding have a good day

greenminer · January 13, 2008

Sorry, UNT is cheap. Cheap in its cost and cheap on what it spends on athletics.

Stop ruffling feathers?

UNTflyer · January 13, 2008

Sorry, UNT is cheap. Cheap in its cost and cheap on what it spends on athletics.

Bump up your MGC membership.

Bryan316 · January 13, 2008

Sorry, UNT is cheap. Cheap in its cost and cheap on what it spends on athletics.

Agreed with the stop ruffling feathers. That was referring to the quality of education compared to the cost. What it spends on athletics has little to no bearing on the quality of the faculty. That is, unless you only look at the bottom line, as you seem to.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Bryan316

NTPhiKap99 · January 13, 2008

Stop ruffling feathers?

I see no problem with ruffling a few feathers. Pretty much every aspect of the university has improved over the past decade but this school has always been an art school and athletics was an after thought. The school has been cheap athletically and if we want to take the next step and be taken seriously that has to change. We need a new athletic fee to help fund the stadium, increase recruiting budgets, and eventually add baseball. If we’re going to keep getting better the school, the students and the alumni all have to step up and do their parts.

Legend500 · January 13, 2008

I see no problem with ruffling a few feathers. Pretty much every aspect of the university has improved over the past decade but this school has always been an art school and athletics was an after thought. The school has been cheap athletically and if we want to take the next step and be taken seriously that has to change. We need a new athletic fee to help fund the stadium, increase recruiting budgets, and eventually add baseball. If we’re going to keep getting better the school, the students and the alumni all have to step up and do their parts.

I too see no problem with stating the (painfully) obvious. It's something that we have to keep in mind - UNT has built a world-class (and cheap! A bargain!) Fine arts and social sciences university, but that does mean problems for an athletic program. The best example is on the west side of campus - an architectural wonder (good enough to be given a page in the definite architecture book published by Phaidon internationally (one of only five texas structures and around 25 US structures mentioned)) with near-perfect acoustics and world-class reputation sits next to an aluminum stadium which until recently hadn't been painted since Ike was president. That is the truth of the matter in a nutshell.

SilverEagle · January 13, 2008

I too see no problem with stating the (painfully) obvious. It's something that we have to keep in mind - UNT has built a world-class (and cheap! A bargain!) Fine arts and social sciences university, but that does mean problems for an athletic program. The best example is on the west side of campus - an architectural wonder (good enough to be given a page in the definite architecture book published by Phaidon internationally (one of only five texas structures and around 25 US structures mentioned)) with near-perfect acoustics and world-class reputation sits next to an aluminum stadium which until recently hadn't been painted since Ike was president. That is the truth of the matter in a nutshell.

It's mostly concrete (but I agree that the ugly aluminum add-on stands are more visable), and it's been painted several times since Ike was President.

BTW, does anyone know how much 'the Armadillo" cost to build? Was it all private doners that built it?

BTW(2). Was the Super Pit built with donated money? If so, how much was raised?

BleedGreen64 · January 13, 2008

I understand the short list has been established. I do not know who all or on it.

From another posting I note we are the 10th largest divion one achool in enrollment. A healrhy athletic funding wouold be beneficisal for our athletic program and for recognition among employers when these students seek employment. People seem to have more respect when theys ee colleges whn football and men's basketball championships.

The increase could mean the loss of some students but quite possibly the gain of others.

Daddy Dumpsalot · January 13, 2008

Bump up your MGC membership.

Sorry MGC donations wont carry the athletic dept. It needs more support from the university. PERIOD. UNT is cheap compared to other universities in Texas. If we charged more we could get more well known professors and all around nicer campus. But that is neither here nor there.

Some say its a great value, I guess that is relative. If you care nothing about the universities appearance, its athletics, or how nationally recognized its schools are, then sure its a great value. But if you care about all those other things and want them to become better known....then its a cheap university.

adman · January 13, 2008

It's mostly concrete (but I agree that the ugly aluminum add-on stands are more visable), and it's been painted several times since Ike was President.
BTW, does anyone know how much 'the Armadillo" cost to build? Was it all private doners that built it?
BTW(2). Was the Super Pit built with donated money? If so, how much was raised?

I am under the impression that the Super Pit was built with state money prior to the rules changing with regards to athletic facilities and state funding. (I am probably wrong but I want to say it was the last athletic facility in the state built with state dollars.)

The Armadillo cost $17M to build. And for the record it is no accident that the Murchison resembles an armadillo. http://www.holzmanmoss.com/unt.html

Edited January 13, 2008 by adman